The Instigator
SitaraPorDios
Pro (for)
Losing
1 Points
The Contender
Nemat
Con (against)
Winning
9 Points

God is cruel.

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
Nemat
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 8/19/2013 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,848 times Debate No: 36837
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (25)
Votes (2)

 

SitaraPorDios

Pro

God is cruel. The proof is everywhere. 1. The existence of evil. 2. Suffering. 3. Rape. 4. God playing favorites. 5. God created Hell. 6. God heals some people and not others.
Nemat

Con

Some people allege that God is a stern and cruel God who demands to be obeyed fully. He is not loving and kind. Nothing can be farther from truth than this allegation. God is more loving and kinder than a mother to her dear child. God is the one who has given you life and has given you hands, legs, ears, and all your other body parts. You should be thankful and you should know that he can take it all away with death. God is also Just. Hence evildoers and sinners must have their share of punishment and the virtuous, His bounties and favors. Actually God's attribute of Mercy has full manifestation in His attribute of Justice. People suffering throughout their lives for His sake and people oppressing and exploiting other people all their lives should not receive similar treatment from their Lord. Expecting similar treatment for them will amount to negating the very belief in the accountability of man in the Hereafter and thereby negating all the incentives for a moral and virtuous life in this world. The Creator must be of a different nature from the things created because if he is of the same nature as they are, he will be temporal and will therefore need a maker. It follows that nothing is like Him. If the maker is not temporal, then he must be eternal. But if he is eternal, he cannot be caused, and if nothing outside him causes him to continue to exist, which means that he must be self-sufficient. And if the does not depend on anything for the continuance of his own existence, then this existence can have no end. The Creator is therefore eternal and everlasting: He is the First and the Last. He is Self-Sufficient and he does not create only in the sense of bringing things into being, He also preserves them and takes them out of existence and is the ultimate cause of whatever happens to them. God tells us He is Pure, Loving, and absolutely Just in every respect. He says He is the Best of Judges. He also tells us the life we are in here is a test. He has created everything existing and He created whatever happens as well. There is nothing in this existence except what He has created. He also says He created evil (although He is not evil). He is using this as one of the many tests for us. Consider people who do so much evil in the earth and then live to a ripe old age in the splendor and wealth of their ill-gotten gains and die without ever being taken to task for their deeds. Where is the justice or fairness in this? Reward and punishment are definitely a part of the Next Life on a very permanent basis. Those who suffer in this life and seemly have nothing to show for all their hard works, good deeds and sacrifices and maintaining the faith can look forward to a far greater reward in a place where these things will not be temporary but rather they will be for eternity. Those who corrupt, violate, injure and do evil and destruction seem to escape any justice here, yet in the Next Life they too will see the fruits of their labors, and certainly they will be paid according to what they have done as well. As regards oppression, this is something God forbids for Himself to do to anyone and He hates it when anyone oppresses someone else. He does have absolute power over everything. He allows sickness, disease, death and even oppression so we can all be tested in what we do. Without evil, how can we measure good? When God created, he created its opposites so we can compare and reflect on what is right.
Debate Round No. 1
SitaraPorDios

Pro

I completely disagree. If God was 100% good, evil would not even exist. It is a logical fallacy to say that God is 100% good and then to say that He allows evil. I only obey Him to avoid Hell. I get no joy out of obeying a cruel God. I refer you to the following quote: "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
Nemat

Con

Evil arises not from God but from the actions of his creations who create their own actions independent of God. God is The Judge, The Justice, The Just and a host of other Powerful and Most Powerful Attributes.It is unjust to create the free creature and prevent that creature from having the choice of good or evil.Where there is good there is evil and where there are good and evil the are reward and punishment.God does not discriminate and God gives man and woman the freedom to earn reward or punishment. Nobody saves you but your own deeds decide your salvation or the Hellfire.
Debate Round No. 2
SitaraPorDios

Pro

Circular reasoning is not a valid argument. God is good because I believe He is good because He is good. Sorry, not buying it.
Nemat

Con

This is how evil began. God created Adam and he showed it to his angels. In that same room there was a jinn by the name of Iblees. God told the angels and the jinns to bow down to adam. All the angels bowed down and all the jinns bowed down except Iblees. God asked him why and the reply was "I am better than him [Adam], You created me from fire, and him You created from clay." Because of this rebellion against God he was cast out of the heavens and cursed by God. This creature has been expelled from the Mercy of God and he seeks to lead mankind astray and with him to Hellfire. He is thus, mankind's greatest enemy. He is the Devil. The effects of fighting against the devil and his supporters leads to the perfection of worship. The Prophets and followers of God perfect their servitude to God by struggling against the devil and opposing his supporters. They also perfect their faith by seeking refuge in God from the devil and fleeing to Allah in order to seek refuge from the devil's evil. This leads to reaching lofty positions of worship that would not have been reached without the devil's existence. Satan is a trial and test for God's followers. Before Satan there was only Good but Satan used his free will and used it to create evil. Satan teaches to reject God and to commit sins. Satan will be punished just like us and he knows that he will be punished. He wants to bring as much people with him to hell as possible. Satan does not like hell and he does not control it but God created Hell to punish both Satan and his followers. It was because of Satan evil started and God created Hell. In the Begging humans were perfect in terms of good or evil till Satan tempted them to eat from the forbidden tree. From then on he has continued to trick humans into rejecting God.
Debate Round No. 3
SitaraPorDios

Pro

You absolutely cannot logically believe that God created everything and then believe that God is omnibenevolent. Something has to give. God created Satan, the demons, and Hell. That proves that He is at least partially cruel.
Nemat

Con

He creates as He pleased and we have no say in the matter. He won't be questioned as to what He does, but we will be questioned. That is why. A person who ends up in Hell ends up there of his own disbelief and actions. The idolaters of the past also used to say, "Well, if God wanted we never would have worshipped these things". The Holy Books refutes that. Destiny doesn't mean that you are forced to be a disbeliever, or a believer for that matter. We have a choice and free will. A person definately can change their ways and a lot of people have and do change their ways. The people of the past, peace and blessings of God be upon them, weren't born believers. They changed their ways. A lot of people change their ways today. People end up in Hell because of their own choices. He created it cause he knew some humans would choose evil. He needed a deterrent to keep the good people good. He gave Satan free will before he was evil and Satan choose to be evil. Satan challenged God and told him that he would bring as many humans to hell with him as possible. God agreed to the challenge to prove to Satan that more humans will stay and believe in God than turn their backs on him. Satan knows he will lose and he is the creator of evil. True that God created him but God gave him free will just as he did to us. He could've choosen to make Satan without free will in which case Satan would have to obey God. It all boils down to whether we believe in God or not. If we believe in Him and His supreme justice, then it would make sense that He would guide us to the straight path. This is only possible through revelations sent down to His prophets, which they relayed to their people.

In all preserved scriptures, one sees evidence of the loving kindness of the Creator. This is manifested in numerous verses through which He shows guidance to mankind, so humans would not err.

So, for the believer, fear of God is part of strengthening his/her faith. One knows that in believing in God, he must have love, fear and hope in Him.

Love and hope are two lengthy subjects. So, since the issue of Hell and the justice of the Creator are being discussed here, we concentrate on the attitude of a believer toward fear of God, which will ultimately save him from Hell.

Yet, one may ask how would I know what pleases or displeases God?
The believer knows there are rewards and punishments and the ways which one may achieve either one. So, he distances himself from God"s punishment and draws himself toward His pleasure and mercy and thus he attains greater spiritual fulfillment. He would want to respect God"s boundaries, stays constantly vigilant and tries to seek God"s pleasure in the best manner he can. He knows this will save him from the fear of the Last Day and the eternal terror of Hell.

{Those who give away their wealth by night and day, secretly and openly, will have their reward with their Lord. They will feel no fear and will know no sorrow.} (Al-Baqarah 2: 274)

As described in the Quran, a believer who has an awareness of God and sincerely reflects on His attributes will immediately begin to experience that inner awe that is due to His Majesty and superiority. Thus, His infinite power will create within the believer a fear full of absolute awe. As a result of the believer's vigilance and sincerity, God will reward him by His infinite mercy with tranquility in this world, and in the Hereafter with Paradise.

{For those who fear the Station of their Lord there are two Gardens.} (Ar-Rahman 55: 46)

Yet, one may ask how would I know what pleases or displeases God? The answer is clear. One must gain knowledge of His Creator by understanding His words through the Quran.

{" Only those of His servants with knowledge have fear of Allah. Allah is Almighty, Ever-Forgiving.} (Fatir 35: 28)

Such believers would understand that the justice of God is unmatched. Thus they believe in all that He has warned them with:

{[Believers are] those who affirm the Day of Judgment. Those who are fearful of the punishment of their Lord. No one is safe from the punishment of his Lord.} (Al-Ma'arij 70: 26-28)

Such is the justice of God and the believer relies on no one but God in fear and hope.

{" they call on their Lord in fear and ardent hope.} (As-Sajdah 32: 16)

About this issue, Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said:

"When the heart of a believer is filled with these two feelings of hope and fear, Almighty Allah fulfils his hope and saves him from what he fears." (Ibn Majah)

What about those who reject the Day of Judgment, when they meet their Lord and witness the Heaven and Hell?

{The real losers are those who lose themselves and their families on the Day of Rising." Is not that clear loss? They will have awnings of Fire above them and awnings below them. By that Allah strikes fear into His servants: "O My servants, fear Me!} (Az-Zumar 39: 15-16)

So, would it be just if God left humans alone to do as they like without any reward or punishment in this world and the Hereafter? God warns:

{Woe to you, and woe! Then woe to you, and woe! Does man reckon he will be left to go on unchecked?} (Al-Qiyamah 75: 34-36)

"Anyone with even a peck of faith in his heart will emerge from the fire." (Tirmidhi)
God, with His justice has given ample warnings through His prophets to those who reject His signs throughout the ages. He has vividly painted pictures of Heaven for those who believe in Him and Hell for those who distanced themselves from Him and His numerous messages while they lived on earth. They denied His signs, warnings and messages. God says to these deniers:

{Those who do not believe will be driven to Hell in companies and when they arrive there and its gates are opened its custodians will say to them, "Did Messengers from yourselves not come to you, reciting your Lord's Signs to you and warning you of the meeting on this Day of yours?" They will say, "Indeed they did, but the decree of punishment is justly carried out against the disbelievers." They will be told, "Enter the gates of Hell and stay there timelessly, forever. How evil is the abode of the arrogant!} (Az-Zumar 39: 71-72)

Did they ever think the punishment was so sever where they would wish for death?

{They will call out [to the custodian of the Hell], "Malik, let your Lord put an end to us!" He will say, "You will stay the way you are."} (Az-Zukhruf 43: 77)

This is the reason why the believers truly fear the punishment of Hell and supplicate to their Lord to avert such punishment from them:

{[The servants of the All-Merciful are] those who say, "Our Lord, avert from us the punishment of Hell, its punishment is inescapable pain."} (Al-Furqan 25: 65)

The Prophet gave the glad tidings to those who believe in God, but earn His anger by disobedience that they will ultimately taste the Paradise. He said:

Abu Said said: "Whoever falls into doubt (of the fact related by this notice) must read this verse: {Allah does not wrong anyone by so much as the smallest speck.} (An-Nisaa' 4: 40)

Yet, for the one who gives not heed to God"s warning, all he can do is to discredit the reality of Heaven and Hell and the Day of Judgment. Such were also the people of the old civilizations and generations. God gives a glimpse of what happened to such disbelievers:

{Have they not travelled in the Earth and seen the final fate of those before them? They had greater strength than them and cultivated the land and inhabited it in far greater numbers than they do...} (Ar-Rum 30: 9)

{" Did he not know that before him Allah had destroyed generations with far greater strength than his and far more possessions?} (Al-Qasas 28: 78)

{How many generations We have destroyed before them who had finer furnishings and a better outward show!} (Maryam 19: 74)

Finally, those who believe that Hell should not exist if God is just, and are heedless of the warnings of their Creator, they will surely come to know how just and fair He was-but perhaps too late for them to change once they meet their Lord. They are best described in the Quran as follows:

{Do you feel secure against Him causing the shore to swallow you up or sending against you a sudden squall of stones? Then you will find no one to be your guardian. Or do you feel secure against Him taking you back into it another time and sending a violent storm against you and drowning you for your ingratitude? Then you will find no one to defend you against Us.} (Al-Isra' 17: 68-69)

He further warns:

{Give from what We have provided for you before death comes to one of you and he says, "My Lord, if only you would give me a little more time so that I can give charity and be one of the righteous!" Allah will not give anyone more time, once their time has come. Allah is aware of what you do.} (Al-Munafiqun 63: 10-11)

Let us be the blessed ones whom God has mentioned herein. Who are they?

{In houses which Allah has permitted to be built and in which His name is remembered, there are men who proclaim His glory morning and evening, not distracted by trade or commerce from the remembrance of Allah and the performance of prayer and the giving of alms; fearing a day when all hearts and eyes will be in turmoil.} (An-Nur 24: 36-37)

http://www.onislam.net...
Debate Round No. 4
SitaraPorDios

Pro

I disagree. You cannot know a God that you do not question. I got saved by questioning God. Jesus questioned God. Jacob questioned God. Job questioned God.
Nemat

Con

One can question one's religion and God in order to find truth. You should read over the holy books. You should ask both religious people and non religious people. You should ask friends for advice. In that context I was referring to what he creates and does. Because God has already created and done many things. It is not our business on what he choices. For example it is not of our concern to ask when Judgement day is cause only he knows. I would like to say that I love God. He is Just and Kind and Merciful. I believe in him and I always will. You may see him as cruel cause possibly you might not have had a good relationship with Religion. I find myself in love with my religion. I will always be religious and put my faith in God. My beliefs are different to yours. I'm not sure what your religion is but I would like to say God is not Cruel and the evidence is that he can choose to kill us all in a second but chooses not to. He has immense power and can do many things and as long as we believe in him and put our faith in him everything will be alright. Nice meeting you and Thanks for the Debate.
Debate Round No. 5
25 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Ragnar 3 years ago
Ragnar
Enough with the comment battle filling my inbox. Just challenge each other to a debate already.
Posted by Nemat 3 years ago
Nemat
There's a difference between killing the innocent and killing those who kill and commit hideous acts
Posted by henryajevans 3 years ago
henryajevans
But thousands of innocents were murdered by God. That makes God no better than the Pharaoh
Posted by Nemat 3 years ago
Nemat
He gave us free will. He sent Moses and Pharaoh did not change. Teleporting Jews would not keep them save cause the Pharaoh would just keep following them. So he killed the man who was the boss of the genocide. He could've but then the Jews would not learn their lesson. He choose the difficult path and not the easy path so they can learn through experience.
Posted by henryajevans 3 years ago
henryajevans
But God could have just as easily changed the Pharaoh's mind or teleported the Jews to Canaan, rather than commit mass genocide of people who could not possibly have had any influence upon the matter. If he is omnipotent, he could have done that just as easily.
Posted by Nemat 3 years ago
Nemat
Yep he will see his rewards too though after a short life of heaven he'll be in hell for infinite times cause I think his bad deeds out balanced his goods. Though that's God's judgment on what his good deeds and bad deeds were. He tried to genocide the Jews of Egypt so God had to intervene.
Posted by henryajevans 3 years ago
henryajevans
And I'm sure everyone in Egypt except for the Pharaoh also did atoms weight in good before the benevolent God punished them for the sins of their leader
Posted by Nemat 3 years ago
Nemat
God says in the Quran in chapter 99 verse 7-8 So whoever does an atom's weight of good will see it, and whoever does an atom's weight of evil will see it. So every good deed you've done will get a reward and everything bad you did will be punished. Believing in God will increase the goodness and rewards but even if you don't believe you will nevertheless still receive rewards for your good deeds though when you believe in God your sins will be forgiven and you'll spend less time in hell. In Islam almost everyone will make at least one trip to hell cause almost everyone has done something bad in their lifetime but the plus side is that after your punishment you get to stay in heaven forever, that is if your good deeds out balance the bad deeds. For example If someone killed 100 people then gave charity he will spend a tiny bit of time in heaven and the rest in hell. He will still get his reward for that charity regardless of what happens but he also will spend time in Hell. So if your bad outbalances good than you will go to heaven first than hell for the rest of your life. Believing in God will increase your good deeds and some of your sins will be forgiven but not all.
Posted by henryajevans 3 years ago
henryajevans
But I think of myself as a good person, yet I don't subscribe to any religion; does that mean that I will face the flames of eternal damnation? Morality is an incredibly subjective concept, and it is a fallacy of logic to assert that bronze age logic from the most barbaric corners of ancient Palestine is superior to that of the enlightenment and western democracy.
Posted by Nemat 3 years ago
Nemat
No he has sent enough and now it is the time to test us. Good go to heaven and bad to hell. Quite simple if you think about.
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by bsh1 3 years ago
bsh1
SitaraPorDiosNematTied
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Total points awarded:16 
Reasons for voting decision: I think Pro's essential premise that if God were 100% good, s/he would not allow suffering, is convincing. Had Pro chosen to develop and expound upon this argument (eg offering biblical or theological evidence or analysis) this point would have won her the debate. As it stands right now though, this one semi-developed assertion is insufficient to address the myriad points Con raises. Pro attempts to rebut Con's detailed analysis with one-liners; the rebuttals just lacked a sense of authority and, therefore, validity. I think Pro had better germs of ideas, but they didn't come to fruition. Good debate!
Vote Placed by Mikal 3 years ago
Mikal
SitaraPorDiosNematTied
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Reasons for voting decision: I do Think god can be considered Cruel but I also think Pro failed to show so. His arguments were very poorly gathered while Con set up a nice structure and mad valid points that were not properly refuted.