The Instigator
ATHOS
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
SANTORUM2012
Con (against)
Winning
3 Points

God is evil

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
SANTORUM2012
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 7/14/2012 Category: Religion
Updated: 4 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 937 times Debate No: 24716
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (7)
Votes (1)

 

ATHOS

Pro

=======Resolution=======

'God is evil "

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

//Note: Please read through the debate format before accepting.//



I will be Pro/For

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Definitions:

God = The Judeo-Christian God as described in the Bible.

Evil = morally bad: profoundly immoral or wrong. harmful: deliberately causing great harm, pain, or upset. malicious: characterized by a desire to cause hurt or harm.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Rounds:

1.) R1 is for acceptance and/or any definitions my opponent would like to revise.

2.) R2 is for argumetation.

3.) R3 is for rebuttals/conclusion.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Rules:


1.)
The Bible will treated as the Word of God.


2.)
Only the Bible can be used as a reference.


3.) If my opponent claims Bible vereses were taken 'out of context" Con must provide contextual clarity.

4.)
debate will be respectful.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
//Note: I know this topic has been debated time and time again, but I have never actually debated it myself. For the purpose of this debate I will contend that "God" as defined, exists. In the hope of making this debate somewhat challenging and passionate, I urge any Christian to take up the challenge. As Christians truly believe God is perfectly loving. Please, no devil's advocates.//
SANTORUM2012

Con

I will accept you debate on the con side of "God is Evil"

I will argue that the God of the bible is not evil but longsuffering, tolerant, and just.


Thank you for the opportunity to debate this!!!
Debate Round No. 1
ATHOS

Pro

=======Resolution=======

'God is evil "

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

//Note: Please read through the debate format before accepting.//



I will be Pro/For

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Definitions:

God = The Judeo-Christian God as described in the Bible.

Evil = morally bad: profoundly immoral or wrong. harmful: deliberately causing great harm, pain, or upset. malicious: characterized by a desire to cause hurt or harm.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Rounds:

1.) R1 is for acceptance and/or any definitions my opponent would like to revise.

2.) R2 is for argumetation.

3.) R3 is for rebuttals/conclusion.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Rules:


1.)
The Bible will treated as the Word of God.


2.)
Only the Bible can be used as a reference.


3.) If my opponent claims Bible vereses were taken 'out of context" Con must provide contextual clarity.

4.)
debate will be respectful.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
//Note: I know this topic has been debated time and time again, but I have never actually debated it myself. For the purpose of this debate I will contend that "God" as defined, exists. In the hope of making this debate somewhat challenging and passionate, I urge any Christian to take up the challenge. As Christians truly believe God is perfectly loving. Please, no devil's advocates.//

Round 2

An aspect of God I would like to argue is "omniscience'.

'For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things.'
-1 John 3:20 -

'But behold, all things have been done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things.'
-2 Nephi 2:24

'Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.'
-Matthew 6:8

'You know when I sit down and when I rise up; you discern my thoughts from afar. You search out my path and my lying down and are acquainted with all my ways.'
-Psalm 139:2-6

God is indeed, omniscient -- Knowing all things.

The fact that God is omniscient makes it very clear that He is ' evil ' as defined. When God created Adam and Eve* He knew Sin* would have resulted which would ultimately lead to the destruction of the world with a flood*. Was God 'deliberately causing great harm, pain, or upset'? Yes, His omniscience demonstrates intent. Before He created man, He heard the anguish, the pain and lament of the tortured souls in *hell that He is ultimately responsible for, and he still followed through with His "plan". The absurd evil of this infinite punishment is even greater when we consider that the ultimate source of human imperfection is the God who created them.
God creates lesser beings with the foreknowledge that they won't live up to His impeccably high standards, and dooms them to eternity.

The Judeo-Christian God as described in the Bible is surely evil.

The main point here is 'God's omniscience'. This aspect, and this aspect alone is enough to show the intent of His evil. But, I will go on.....


*Adam and Eve:
  • 'Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground." -Genesis 1:26

*Sin:
  • 'Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned-' -Romans 5:12


*Flood:
  • 'For behold, I will bring a flood of waters upon the earth to destroy all flesh in which is the breath of life under heaven. Everything that is on the earth shall die.'' -Genesis 6:17


*Hell:

  • 'And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.' -Matthew 10:28
  • 'But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire.' -Matthew 5:22
God's evil is continually demonstrated through out the Bible. Look at the accounts of Job.

God deliberately allows Satan to torment *Job as a "test", but, this can't be a test, given the fact that God is omniscient. God maliciously wanted Job to suffer, so He could reap the adulation and praise from Job soon afterward.

*Job-Book of Job

*Sodom and Gomorrah: God completely destroys these two cities. Why? Because its inhabitants were excercising "*
free will" that was given to them by God. But, does God really grant us with free will? No, He only offers the illusion of free will. Free will that comes with a cost is not free will.

*Sodom and Gommorah: Genesis 19

*free will:
  • 'See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil...' -Deuteronomy 30:15
    SANTORUM2012

    Con

    Why does God allow evil things to happen?


    (Gen. 1:26-31). Being all-knowing, God does knowingly create people who will be sinners, but knowledge and control are different. God created us with the gift of free will - the ability to willfully choose Him or reject Him. We choose to sin - to reject God - through willful disobedience. This rejection is a void in God's plan for us.


    What is evil and where did it come from?


    Sin is the source of evil and God directly tells us in the bible not to go against commandments. Adam and Eve (first humans) knew of know sin until eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil as God commanded them not to. Evil did exist at the time as we hear in the story of Lucifer becoming prideful and trying to overpower God but humans did not know of Good and bad. Eve then was tempted by the serpent/Lucifer/Satan and she tempted Adam. Evil comes from sin. Example: Lucifer became prideful (one of the seven deadly sins) and started doing evil (trying to overpower God, tempted Eve. ect.)


    Why doesn't God stop to evil if he is so powerful?


    God wants us to love Him, but without free will, we could not sincerely love Him. We cannot be forced to love someone. If God created us without free will, we would be living machines and not made in His image and likeness. God permits moral evil to the extent that He gives us free will. Thanks to us, the moral evil in the world is the result of our choice.


    Think about it? Are you glad you get to make your on decisions and choices? Would the world be free from evil if everyone were "mindless zombies"? The answer is yes. The world would be free from evil if God controlled every step of our path because evil does not exist, it is the absence of good, so if everything was good then nothing would be evil.


    If God is Good why is there pain, suffering, and hardships?


    Pain and suffering comes from a result of sin that you or another person has done. When Adam and Eve sinned they were put out of the garden where the endured pain and suffering. Cain bared the mark for killing his brother Able. Sampson lost his strength due to giving in to Delilah and telling her his secret as God commanded him not to. Jonah was swallowed by a giant fish because he refused to preach to the people of Nineveh.


    Doesn't innocent people suffer everyday?


    Sadly, yes. Innocent babies lives are stopped in a blink of an eye. (Abortions) People are put in jail for expressing religious freedom. (Middle East; China; ect. lack of Freedom of religion) Women are raped for refusing to follow a dress code. (middle east lack of women's rights) and awful disastrous things happen everyday. However, these things do not happen because God is Evil but because Satan is evil and Satan promotes sin which destroys good and the absence of good is again, evil.


    Why is God good?


    Although God’s goodness is unfolded in all that He is and all that He does, the Bible reveals some specific expressions of it. For one, it is demonstrated in His creation. Seven times in Genesis God said that what He made was good (Genesis 1:4,10,12,18,21,25,31). The final statement sums it up: “And God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good” (Genesis 1:31). No one can observe the grandeur of God’s handiwork and deny that it is good. Even though man has managed to mar it considerably, it was good the way God made it and it still reflects that goodness: blue skies studded with fluffy white clouds by day and spangled with sparkling bright stars at night; glistening snow-covered mountain peaks; fields and trees with infinitely varied shades of green and gold; brilliant, multicolored flowers with lovely fragrances. There is no end to the goodness we enjoy in God’s creation: “the earth is full of the goodness of the LORD” (Psalm 33:5 KJV). The beauty of God’s earth reminds us of His goodness.


    Jesus said He makes the sun rise on the evil as well as on the good, and sends the rain on the unrighteous as well as on the righteous (Matthew 5:45). He deals bountifully and kindly even with ungrateful and wicked men (Luke 6:35). Paul said in a message to a group of unbelievers at Lystra, “He did good and gave you rains from heaven and fruitful seasons, satisfying your hearts with good and gladness” (Acts 14:17).


    The difference between Gods goodness and humans goodness is we think goodness means we should be happy all the time when in reality, Gods goodness is where everyone has a choice and a right to be an individual and when you learn where Gods true Good goodness is (John 3:16) that is when you are really "happy". God gave his son Jesus to be killed by the people he put on this earth to save them for doing so. If he never did anything but that, that would be okay because that is all we need to save us from hell.


    You wake up every morning because God is good, not because he is evil.


    Debate Round No. 2
    ATHOS

    Pro

    God's omniscience easily negates your entire argument.

    Let me explain further...

    //Why does God allow evil things to happen?//
    ...because He intended for it to happen.


    //*Being all-knowing, God does knowingly create people who will be sinners, *but knowledge and control are different. God created us with the gift of free will - the ability to willfully choose Him or reject Him. We choose to sin - to reject God - through willful disobedience. This rejection is a void in God's plan for us.//
    *Why would a supposedly good God 'knowingly create people who will be sinners', people that He ultimately knows are doomed to suffer? Foreknowledge shows malicious intent.

    *No, 'knowledge and control' are not different, not in this case. God's foreknowledge controls the outcome of his will.


    *'free will'
    is not free will
    if it comes with a price or consequence. God gives us free will, but, if we use it to go against His will, we're doomed. This is not free will, it's evil control.


    *'...God's plan for us.'
    • His plan that would ultimately doom most of his creation.


    *'What is evil and where did it come from?'
    • Evil came from God. God is all-knowing, and he knowingly created evil.



    *'...these things do not happen because God is Evil but because Satan is evil...'
    • God, with omniscience wholly knew and intended for the existence of Satan. Therefore, the origin of evil Satan can be traced directly back to God.


    *'God gave his son Jesus to be killed by the people he put on this earth to save them for doing so. If he never did anything but that, that would be okay because that is all we need to save us from hell.'
    • Another demonstration of God's evil intentions. He sent his son as a sacrificial blood sacrifice to suffer and die on a cross as a way of atoning for sins that God Himself created. To save people from a torturous hell that He made.


    Conclusion:
    • Another attribute of God is 'Eternal' , something I did not bring up in R2. I will provide my thoughts on it here. When we think about an 'Eternal God" we are confronted with a paradox. It does not follow logically that an eternal God would create time and anything else that would contradict with anything eternal. When 'Perfection', 'omniscience'' and '*eternality" are combined, a question arises. Why would a God with those attributes create anything? A God such as this would just exist. However, according to the Bible, God creates everything the opposite of Himself. Just look at the entirety of his creation. Everything here dies. There is nothing that can live without something else dying. What a sad and tragic creation it is. If you could see the underground of a rain forest in accelerated motion. You would see the roots of every plant battling with each other for food, water and resources. As do the animals that inhabit the rain forest. The rain forest I described is a paradigm of every system the world conforms to, and God created the parameters that would rule its existance. A God with the aforementioned qualities that intended the world to be this way, is evil.


      * http://www.merriam-webster.com...
    SANTORUM2012

    Con

    No, 'knowledge and control' are not different, not in this case. God's foreknowledge controls the outcome of his will.

    You are absolutely right that God knows we will sin but God wanted to created someone that will serve him and he can love. Example: Every child hurts their parents. Some children are more out of control than others but pretty much every child fights with their parents now and again. Now, if we know that children are going to cause us heartbreak and we know that the child is going to be caused pain and suffering as the average human does, then why do we have children?

    I think what is so hard for people to understand is yes, God knows what we are going to do before we do it but in the end it is our choice. God has a plan for our lives but is our choice only if we follow it or not.

    'free will' is not free will if it comes with a price or consequence. God gives us free will, but, if we use it to go against His will, we're doomed. This is not free will, it's evil control.

    That is honestly not what free will is about at all. Here is the most accurate definition of free will.

    free will-free and independent choice; voluntary decision: You took on the responsibility of your own free will.

    "free and independent choice" God allows us to make our own decisions.
    "Voluntary decision" We make it on our own terms"
    "You took on the responsibility of your own free will" Free will doesn't mean consequence free, it merely means YOU have a choice. For Example: America is a free country but if we do drugs we go to jail or other consequences. We made our choice and now we are taking responsibility.

    His plan that would ultimately doom most of his creation.

    Absolutely not! He meant hell for the devil and his angels but once again WE have a choice. For instance I made the choice of accepting Jesus Christ's wonderful truth at 6 yrs. old. I will not be attending hell because I made a CHOICE. I know very well I could've rejected him.

    Evil came from God. God is all-knowing, and he knowingly created evil.

    God is ALL good. You do not "create evil" because it is the absence of good. Example: You don't create darkness because it is the absence of light.

    God, with omniscience wholly knew and intended for the existence of Satan. Therefore, the origin of evil Satan can be traced directly back to God

    Again, God did know Lucifer would try and overpower him but Lucifer had a CHOICE!!!
    God had absolutely no control over what Lucifer did. He did it of his on accord.

    Another demonstration of God's evil intentions. He sent his son as a sacrificial blood sacrifice to suffer and die on a cross as a way of atoning for sins that God Himself created. To save people from a torturous hell that He made.

    God did this because he loved the world and he made a punishment for our sins but he wanted us to be able to get out of what we did.

    Conclusion

    God is not Evil or anything less than perfection. He is perfect, holy, and just. He loves us and wants us to make the right choice. Would you rather have God not have created us and if he created us would you rather have not free will? And would rather have had him create free will without consequences? Without consequences, things get bad!!!!

    Thank you for the debate. I appreciate reading and discussing your point of view. Hopefully debate you again???

    Debate Round No. 3
    7 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 7 records.
    Posted by ATHOS 4 years ago
    ATHOS
    Gileandos, in your first comment you wrote:

    'Pro opens round 2 with asserting his opinion on scripture is that God is all knowing.'

    Do you have a different opinion concerning God's 'omniscience'?
    Posted by Gileandos 4 years ago
    Gileandos
    Con rd 3
    Con again shows moral sufficiency with the parent child analogy.
    Con cites that freewill is horribly misunderstood by Pro. I concur.
    Con cites that Hell was intended for the devil and his angels citing mainstream interpretation.
    Con cites theological concept that evil is absence of good and evil did not come from God. Great job here.
    Con against cites even Satan had freewill.
    Con cites that Jesus was the absolution of punishment via a system of Justice.

    Summary:
    Overall Pro just made accusations with very few attempts to justify his beliefs. Pro ignored the obvious concept of moral sufficiency cited by Con. Pro did nothing to deal mainstream scholastic consensus which was cited. Pro merely cited his personal opinion. Pro also did not hold to a valid definition of freewill.
    All in all Pro never met the BoP. Arguments to Con.
    Posted by Gileandos 4 years ago
    Gileandos
    Con Rd 2
    Con cites the mainstream consensus on the source of evil
    Con cites the mainstream consensus on why God does not stop evil. Properly called moral sufficiency.
    Con cites why a good God allow suffering. Basically explains moral sufficiency.
    Con recognizes suffering exists everyday and points to mainstream consensus that Satan is at fault.
    Con cites a litany of verses pointing to the fact that God is good.
    Con shows the difference between God's goodness and mans.

    Pro round 3
    Pro here asserts:
    "//Why does God allow evil things to happen?//
    ...because He intended for it to happen."
    Pro ignores moral sufficiency cited by Con above.
    Pro repeats God's foreknowledge means malicious intent. Ingores moral sufficiency cited by Con above.
    Pro asserts knowledge and control are synonymous. He labels it evil control. He claims that to use our freewill is to go against His control. However, mainstream consensus is that morals are objective. God is judging based upon that objectivity.
    Pro petulantly states God's plan would ultimately doom most of his creation. This is not the consensus. We will see if Con handles this.
    Pro states evil came from God.
    Pro states God made Satan thus is complicite.
    Pro states God is evil for tormenting Jesus and demanding atonement.
    Posted by Gileandos 4 years ago
    Gileandos
    Pro Rd 2
    For the purpose of the debate Pro has a high burden. He must show:
    - Pro must show God is evil despite Theological consensus of scholars
    - Pro must show this resolution to be true as Pro and instigator of the resolution.

    Pro opens round 2 with asserting his opinion on scripture is that God is all knowing.
    Pro then cites several instances of where God has acted with evil. In each of these instances, the reader notices a decidely important lack of context. This is glaring to the reader and in light of the Pro's declaration demanding that if opponent is 'claims out of context they must prove it', it is poor conduct.
    In any of these debates the Majority consensus of scholars dictates the interpretation, NOT just whatever Pro claims it means. Pro needed to prove the interpretation, which is not even attempted. Again, Pro has the burden of proof here as he is going against consensus.
    Pro asserts:
    - Adam and Eve were made
    - Sin was through man
    - Flood was from God
    - Hell exists.
    I am not certain any of these indicate God is evil to my just reading the verses. Pro will need to do more.
    - Job is tormented. Pro states this can't be a test because God is omniscient. Non sequitor. The test is never for God, but for us. So the theologians claim.
    - Sodom and Gommorah. Pro claims free will is given by God and God is evil to punish people for excercising it. This comes off as striking to the reader.
    Such a rationale would mean that God would be NOT evil if he were to enslave us and not allow us to excercise our freewill.
    Posted by THEBOMB 4 years ago
    THEBOMB
    ATHOS, pretend that when you face a decision there are physical doors in front of you. God knows the outcome of you going through each of the doors and the outcomes of the next decisions etc. What this means is that God knows what would happen if a person was to become a non-Christian and what they're life would become a Christian. True omniscience is knowing every outcome of every possibility. It is up to man to decide what path they will go down.
    Posted by ATHOS 4 years ago
    ATHOS
    SANTORUM2012, So sorry about my lack of any friendly greetings during the rounds. Thank you for accepting the challenge and good luck to you. :)
    Posted by phantom 4 years ago
    phantom
    Semantics could give con an easy win. (imo)
    1 votes has been placed for this debate.
    Vote Placed by Gileandos 4 years ago
    Gileandos
    ATHOSSANTORUM2012Tied
    Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
    Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
    Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
    Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
    Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
    Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
    Total points awarded:03 
    Reasons for voting decision: Summary: Overall Pro just made accusations with very few attempts to justify his beliefs. Pro ignored the obvious concept of moral sufficiency cited by Con. Pro did nothing to deal mainstream scholastic consensus which was cited. Pro merely cited his personal opinion. Pro also did not hold to a valid definition of freewill. All in all Pro never met the BoP. Arguments to Con. RFD in comments