God is man-made

Thank you for initiating the Debate. The 3000 character will be a challenge indeed. Awaiting your arguments.

I would like to thank kwagga_la for accepting this debate and wish him/her luck.

First point:
To start on this I would like to point out that Historically there have been many Gods. I could go through and name them though I think it is more practical to assume you have heard of Greeks, Romans, Babylonians, and many others. Each of these had many gods and all separate religions. Over time people have forgotten about these gods and replaced them with others such as the Christian God. So, I submit my first evidence that man-made thousands of Gods. Why would anyone say with so many examples that man just didn’t make one more? (1)

Second point:
Continuing the trend Humans when creating societal things seems to be regional. Example would be language. When you look at a globe you can section it by language. From there you can see societies and languages depending on where they are located. (2) Religion is no different in this fact. When comparing religion on the globe we can see it is regional in nature much like language another human construct. This is further evidence that religion is not preordained, but rather created by man. (3)(4)

Third point:
Furthermore, I would like to also present the facts that some societies have been discovered without religious systems. Piraha is an example of this. (5) This further supports the claim that all gods are man-made, as examples of societies without gods show they are not innate in our species. Not to mention that a major world religion also has no gods in it.

Fourth point:
Last argument is that religions evolve. What I mean by this is that they change over time often forming to what societies are doing. Example of this would be the Greek religion when it changed and was adopted by the Romans. The Romans made the religion distinct forming a new version. Another example would be how Asherah was a Goddess and wife of Yahweh, though now removed from the religions left to worship Yahweh. (6)

Conclusion:
Religions form and we have theories on why humans form these much like languages. There are many examples of societies creating different religions why would any be true over another. Religions exhibit traits that are common to human creations and thus are more likely created. Then religions change over time when if a religion was true its truths would not change with societies.

(1) https://en.wikipedia.org...

(2) http://www.mapsofworld.com...

(3) http://brilliantmaps.com...

(4) http://www.businessinsider.com...

(5) https://www.ibcsr.org...

(6) Patai, Raphael (1967). The Hebrew Goddess.

Rebuttal:
First point:
The presence of gods in different cultures does not automatically make them man made. You still have to prove these gods were in fact man made.
Second point:
It is recorded in Ezekiel that God was angry with the Israelites because they baked cakes to "the Queen of Heaven". Although they were Jewish, born in Israel, they were not orthodox believers and followed a different religion. Today many Atheists argue that if you were born in a Muslim country that you will be Muslim etc. It sounds very probable but only in recent History. In ancient times the Kaaba contained thousands of different gods that were worship. They also forget that you are either a Muslim or a dead rejecter of Islam. If Muslim countries did not kill those who reject Islam or made them outcasts then it is more probable that people would NOT necessarily become Muslims. I have heard many Muslims say they doubt their religion and do not even accept all the beliefs. They are Muslims because they are FORCED to be not because they are BORNED into Islam. The present situation was much different in ancient times and disproves the regional claim.
Third point:
I read the article but the article also states: "The Pirah" have also been cited as a counterexample to the common claim that religious beliefs are human universals. But there"s a problem with these arguments, and Everett himself highlights it: in his many articles and interviews about the Pirah", he reports that the Pirah" world is chock-full of spirits, including sky spirits, forest spirits, and evil spirits. Although they object to the Christian God they certainly do not reject the supernatural." (1)
Fourth point:
The Babylonians worshipped Nimrod, Tammuz and Semiramis also known as the "Queen of Heaven". "Queen of Heaven was a title given to a number of ancient sky goddesses worshipped throughout the ancient Mediterranean and Near East during ancient times." (2) The evolution noticed in some religions only proves that there was evolution. It does not prove that the ORIGINAL belief system was also man made. Again, the common thread found would indicate that ALL religions are not regional. The acceptance of different countries that had histories of opposing each other but worshipping the gods in similar fashion would indicate they believed the gods were not man made. It is hard to believe that you would accept your enemies gods if you knew they were inventions.
Conclusion:
Pro has to yet prove all the gods are in fact man made. ALL Religions are not based on region. The Pirah" do not reject the supernatural and therefore is not a very good example. Christianity has a 2000+ history. Orthodox Christianity did not change. I mention this to point out that Pro"s statement is more correct that SOME religions evolve and change. According to Pro"s conclusion that would be evidence that Christianity is the true religion. In all cases probable conclusions was given by Pro but also sufficient doubt pointed out to question the validity of the conclusions.
1. https://www.ibcsr.org...
2. https://en.wikipedia.org...

I find it odd that my opponent chooses not to present arguments for God not being created by man. Instead rebuts my arguments.

First point:
It is true the presence of gods does not conclude they were man-made though the options are simple. Either all gods are real, some gods are real, or no gods are real. Since I am going with more of the null hypothesis that no gods are real until proven to exist. I assume the variety of gods shows the creativity of humans when creating them. Also, showing that most primitive religion worship was of the Sun and other natural occurring phenomena, this also shows the creating of Gods by these cultures furthering my point.

Second point:
I am more pointing to the relation from language being reginal to how religion is reginal. Since language is a known human creation the similarities from culture show. Now the Muslim example may be true for some though not all. I again point to my map provided for reginal religions as it shows that they are reginal. (1)(2) I would also like to point out that it is an anecdotal fallacy to say because you find some Muslims that say they doubt their religion that the maps made from surveys and statistics are false.

Third point:
The point of this was that the societies do not have Gods. Buddhist are a major world religion and there is no God/Gods found in it. If the society is spiritual or believes in supernatural is not the point I was making.

Fourth point:
My original point was if something was true then it would not change over time and conform to societies. To rebut the points made by my opponent. Other people accepting and spreading a religion does support reginal. If it was not reginal then there would be no need for the religion to spread it would already be accepted everywhere. We can trace religions to origins of areas where they started. See my video (2) for examples of the major world ones.

Conclusion:
Now I also have not said that people believed gods where man made. I said man created gods. The worshiping people that passed religions on and accepted their enemy’s religions believed in gods. I am saying from history the religion spread much like language spreads and most primitive religions are nature worship. This shows religions have the traits of something created and not ordained.

Last Christianity, only for the past 200 years or so went against slavery. (3) The LGBT community has only been accepted in the last 50 years or so. So I challenge the 2000+ years without change claim.(4) While this is single example I believe it to be relevant. I can remember growing up and being told Gay people will go to Hell by my church. Now many churches have changed their view.

(1) http://brilliantmaps.com...

(2) http://www.businessinsider.com...

(3) https://en.wikipedia.org...

(4) https://en.wikipedia.org...;

Rebuttal:
Israel made a covenant where they saw God in the OT. This covenant was repeated from generation to generation until even today. This is a generational eyewitness account handed down from father to son. The tradition has been unbroken since that time and the story have not changed over thousands of years. The love a father has for his children and the integrity and responsibility makes it unlikely that this story was a human invention.
There is historic evidence for the Jesus Christ. He was God manifest in the flesh. Believers and non-believers attest to his person-hood and miracles and therefore make it unlikely it is man made stories.
First point:
Your options should also include that SOME gods may be real while at the same time SOME gods are not. It is not one or the other. In this case you may find SOME gods were man made and SOME has no evidence that they were ever man made. Most primitive religions include the spirit world and supernatural. That is not based on "natural phenomena" as defined by "so called science" today.
Second point:
Anecdotal claims are countered in that I mentioned "in recent times". Naming what Muslims told me is not the crux of the argument. You will not find a Muslim on any map before 600AD. That alters any modern claim based on region and the spreading of religion.
Third point:
Although Buddhist does not claim a single deity they do believe in the supernatural and afterlife. People tend to argue against a god of their preference. Humans have also been worshipped as gods. The Roman Emperors were worshipped as gods and death was the alternative belief. The God of the Bible refer to some rulers who could extinguish any life with the snap of his fingers as gods. There is also a god of this world in the Bible who is not Jesus Christ. There are different offices and natures that determine and distinguish gods. Some may have God like authority and therefore are gods. The Emperor of Japan is believed to be of divine origin. I have never heard of any atheist who has ever dared to go to Japan and tell the emperor in his face that he is a liar and does not exist. Christians died because they rejected the Emperors as gods.
Fourth point:
Spreading of religion do not necessarily support what you say. As pointed out, you have opposing nations who accept the same gods although they are at war with each other. If they knew the gods worshipped by their opponents were man made then it is very unlikely they would also worship them.
Conclusion:
I fail to see the difference between man made and man created. Drunkards go to hell whether they are gay or not. Opinions about certain aspects related to faith are not enough to claim a change of its original tenants. The main tenants of the Christian faith have always been who God is, how you get saved and where you go after you die for over 2000 years.

Since I have limited space I will mainly respond to the arguments presented.

The Jewish tradition of passing down information as a tradition is equivalent of many other religions that have passed stories down from parents to children. The fact that it was passed down with care and the belief in the system does not add any truth to the validity of the stories. Then I must point out there is no evidence that the miracles claimed by Jesus ever happened. Plus to loosely quote David Hume, What is more likely that the laws of nature are suspended in your favor or that you are mistaken.

First Point:
I did include the option for some gods may be real in my first point in round 3.

Second point:
I am not sure how no Muslims showing up on a map before 600AD refutes my argument. If anything it supports it.

Third point:
I am fine with supernatural I am saying these examples of societies with no gods are supporting evidence for my conclusion.

Fourth point:
The people thinking it was created has nothing to do with if it was or not created. I do think an atheist would tell the emperor of Japan he is not a god. The religion that says he is would also be made by man. I also think you are missing my point, because if the people believe in the religion is irrelevant to my point.

Rebuttal of conclusion:
I would just like to point out that Christians disagree on how you get saved and where you go when you die. Purgatory was only taken away in our lifetime by the previous Pope.(1)

Closing statements:
What would you expect from ordained religion. Well I would expect that the religion to be self-evident and not just to you the reader, but to everyone. There would be no need to spread a religion if it was ordained by a all knowing god. The fact that religions have origins and are not known to all societies without word of mouth spreading the religion is a trait of something man-made. My points show these facts that religions have origins, Christianity for example is the middle east. Native Americans never knew of Jesus until the religion spread. This fact makes religions regional in the fact they formed in different areas. The fact that some societies have no Deities in their religions further shows the contrast of my claims. Last is the fact that religions take on forms of the societies they inhabit. Look at Christianity and how it has changed from believing the earth was the center of the universe to now recognizing we are simply not. (2) From the evidence provided it is safe to conclude that since these religions show traits of being man-made that they are man-made.

I wish to thank my opponent for a good debate and thank you the reader for taking time to read over it. Please leave a comment if you have suggestions or wish to discuss any of the statements.


(1) https://en.wikipedia.org...

(2)https://en.wikipedia.org...

Rebuttal:

Whether you believe the records about Christ or not is immaterial. It exists. Cosmological arguments necessitate that the "laws of nature" had to be suspended to explain how the universe began (a benzene molecule spinning without gravity? something out of nothing?). Either David Hume was a fool or Scientists today are fools.

First Point:

You include the option but reject it based on the spread of religion. Again, that only proves religion was spreading and not whether its origin was man made.

Second point:

You based your claim on a "global" view in round 1. This picture was the opposite of what it is today because there were no Muslims before 600AD. It does not support your argument because there were thousands of gods in the Kaaba before Islam took over. Which god would you have served if you were born back then? Can someone even identify the thousands that were there today? Obviously the one out of the thousands of gods you decided to serve was your CHOICE to serve. Religions not only spread but also die out. What does that prove regarding whether it was man made? Absolutely nothing. Your argument must take all of history in consideration, not just modern day examples.

Third point:

The article you quoted from also called your view in question. As for Buddhist, if everything is really an illusion then I would not take anything to serious they have to say regarding the existence of God. Gods or no gods in a society do not prove it was man made.

Fourth point:

Your statement includes you too; let me rewrite it to include you: Pro is thinking it was created and has nothing to do with if it was or was not created. Therefore, why even argue the subject? The counter to your argument was that the concept of god includes men who are also worshipped as god and even nature. Is nature man made?

Rebuttal of conclusion:

Certain sects within Christianity disagree. It is wrong to generalize Christianity as a single unit without making proper distinction. What you say may only be applicable to the Catholics.

Closing statements:

"There would be no need to spread" shows that you have a very limited view of god or who can be a god. But since there is limited space I will just point out that you have no evidence that in fact religion was man made. You conclude things that are irrational because many other equally valid options exist to explain the subject. Fish are regional, where they man made? Humans are regional, where they man made? According to evolution and the Bible, no man was "man-made". That alone refutes your theory. Thank you for the Debate! All the best to you.