God is not a hero
Debate Rounds (5)
In this debate I will be arguing on the negative, namely, that God is a hero. To specify, I will be arguing that the Christian God is a hero because of what he has done and is in recorded history. I will base this argument on on three points: God's creation of a meaningful existence, God's extreme sacrifice for, as well as his undeserved love of, the human race, and finally, God's inherent perfection.
I look forward to your opening argument.
My opponent states that God has created a meaningful existence and i question that statement. Sure the plant has given us life and is the reason we are alive but if god created the earth... why didn't he give food to the 4 million people in africa who are starving to death as we speak? In addition you stated that God has made an Ultimate Sacrifice... which sacrifice are you speaking of? You also mention his undeserved love of the human race.
God, according to the Bible and Priests and Historians is a super powerful being with the ability to do anything. He decided to create humans and put them on Earth. So now look where we are? We have 4 million people starving in Africa. Why does he not give them the food and water they need to survive? Wars are being waged everyday and woman and children are dying unjustly. Recently a 13 year old boy was found in Syria. He was tortured and beaten and finally killed. They found three bullet holes in his body. He was also casterated. Now where is the almighty god when this is going on? You know how there are single mothers who are forced to take care of their children because the father left? Well this is kind of how it is. God (father) left the earth (mother) to take care of the humans (children). He just left and even if he looked back, it sure doesn't seem like he cares what happens to us. He definitely didn't show up when 8 million people where being put in gas chambers and ovens. We are his children right so what kind of father would he have to be to watch as his children, by the millions, scream in agony an pain. Wouldn't you give up your life, for your children instead of having them be tortured to death. Also, the bible tells us that if we commit sins we will go to hell. And according to the online dictionary, hell is "the place or state of punishment of the wicked after death;the abode of evil and condemned spirits;
any place or state of tormentor misery". So when you die, if you commit any major sins you will be sentenced to a life of Misery and Torture. Would you watch your children got through that? No matter how wicked they are... hearing them scream in pain for all eternity.
After reading your rebuttal to my argument, it seems that your main contention and your rebuttal to my first argument(creating a meaningful existence) is that of the Problem of Evil(see:http://en.wikipedia.org...) in reference to the existence of famine in the world. You blame the existence of famine on God. I will prove this blame to be falsely seated. You also made a reference to the Holocaust(1939-1945), citing this as an argument that God is not the hero that I claim him to be. I will not, in this debate, argue against the Problem of Evil itself, but rather your argument based on the existence of famine.
You seem to be misinformed on the causes of famine on earth. You seem to believe that famine is a thing which is entirely out of human control and is entirely in the control of God. This is a very false belief. It has been, and is even more so today, possible for the human race to completely eradicate famine. You will see, of course, that is typically triggered by drought or other natural causes, however you will also see that it is allowed and sustained by human action or inaction. I have cited two separate sources to support this statement: http://www.newint.org... & http://www.theworld.org...
The sad fact of the earth is not that God(seemingly) does not intervene to stop the terrible things on earth, but is that the vast majority of these things are also caused by either human action or inaction. The holocaust did not occur because God did not prevent it, but rather because human beings caused it. Even your example of the thirteen-year-old boy found in Syria works against your own argument. Who is most at blame for this occurrence? You would say that it is God. I, however, would blame the men who tortured, castrated, and finally shot him. We too often find a scape goat in the form of God. I believe that the real solution to the world's problems would be a serious look in the mirror for the human race.
Now, to answer your questions in regard to my second and third arguments, I am referring to God's sacrifice for us in the form of Jesus' death for our sins, and to God's love for the human race despite of our undeserving nature.
In closing, I would like to respond to your final argument of "his(God's) children" being condemned to hell. The answer to this question is simply that God's children are not condemned to hell. God does not say that we are all children of God, but rather that those who have accepted the redemption and rebirth through Christ are his children. The others are condemned by their own actions and inaction's. ANYONE on earth can be saved from condemnation. The only thing they have to do is accept the gift from God. God will not save those who are unwilling to be saved. You seem to think of God as an unfeeling father who doesn't care at all for his own children and who has not and will not lift a finger to help them. After hearing the Gospel, how can you hold this view? God has done more for his creation then any father I have ever heard of. He has died for his children who have denied his existence, insulted, criticized, and disobeyed him innumerable times. He has given us all a way to be accepted back. He also puts up with us once we are back with him. I know from experience that we Christians(including and especially myself) would not be seen by anyone in their right mind as model children.
So with this, I conclude my arguments for Round Two. I have both responded to all of my opponent's arguments and have defended the the negation of the topic statement: God is not a hero. I await your response.
I await you response.
To answer your question, allow me to refer to a quote of the twentieth century Christian apologist, C.S. Lewis:
"We can, perhaps, conceive of a world in which God corrected the results of this abuse of free will by His creatures at every moment: so that a wooden beam became soft as grass when it was used as a weapon, and the air refused to obey me if I attempted to set up in it the sound waves that carry lies or insults. But such a world would be one in which wrong actions were impossible, and in which, therefore, freedom of the will would be void; nay, if the principle were carried out to its logical conclusion, evil thoughts would be impossible, for the cerebral matter which we use in thinking would refuse its task when we attempted to frame them." -C.S. Lewis
I make my defense on the bases of free will. As already stated by Mr. Lewis, the logical conclusion of Divine Intervention in human action is the total lose of free will. With this stated, I ask you: What is the value of a creation which cannot think and decide for themselves? This creation would be no better than a computer program. It would be better if it hadn't been created at all.
So while I do see some admirable compassion in your argument, it is regrettably narrow. The existence which you envision would be meaningless. That is, it would have absolutely no ability to change itself independently from its creator.
With this said, we have established that in this world, there are flaws, that these flaws are to be blamed on the human race itself, that while God does have the power to intervene with these flaws, and that if he did, it would result in a loss of free will, and with it, a loss of meaning in the world. I have thus proved that God is not to be blamed for his lack of intervention, and that he has a very good reason for not doing so. So while you show compassion for the human race with your argument, you show a lack of understanding in them. I do hope that after reading and considering my argument, you will come to a better understanding of the incredible and, albeit, misunderstood being which we call God.
I await your response.
screamingrage forfeited this round.
I would have looked forward to continuing in this round.
I await your response.
Anyway, the quote that you used was really interesting and yes, I completely understand what it means. but look at this;
a man of distinguished courage or ability, admired for his brave deeds and noble qualities: that's what a hero is. You used the quote, saying that if God intervened, we would lose our free will. Well, that doesn't matter to the 8,000,000 people that died in the Holocaust because their dead. They don't have a will to do anything now, nor did they they in the early 1940's. What would have been the problem if god had just helped them. Huh? I bet that when they were being burned to death, they were screaming His name. I bet when they were being beat they were praying for someone to save them. But some, like Eli Wiesel, gave up their belief on God completely. Eli Wiesel is a famous author. He is a survivor of the Holocaust and has written a book about his days in the notorious camp of Auschwitz. You should really read the book, it's good. Anyway, in the book, he says.
"Then came the march past the victims. The two men were no longer alive. Their tongues were hanging out, swollen and bluish. But the third rope was still moving: the child, too light, was still breathing... And so he remained for more than half an hour, lingering between life and death, writhing before our eyes. And we were forced to look at him at close range. He was still alive when I passed him. His tongue was still red, his eyes not yet extinguished. Behind me, I heard the same man asking: "For God's sake, where is God?" And from within me, I heard a voice answer: "Where He is? This is where--hanging here from this gallows..." And Also "Blessed be God's name? Why, but why would I bless Him? Every fiber in me rebelled. Because He caused thousands of children to burn in His mass graves? Because he kept six crematoria working day and night, including Sabbath and the Holy Days? Because in His great might, He had created Auschwitz, Birkenau, Buna, and so many other factories of death? How could I say to Him: Blessed be Thou, Almighty, Master of the Universe, who chose us among all nations to be tortured day and night, to watch as our fathers, our mothers, our brothers, end up in the furnaces? Praised be Thy Holy Name, for having chosen us to be slaughtered on Thine altar?"(Wiesel, 64)
Eli was a strong believer in god before his days in the concentration camp but as you can see from the two quotes he has given up faith. In the first quote, they are walking in front of men who have been hanged because they had fought for what they believed in. When he says, God is here hanging from the gallows. He is taking the power from God taking His name and giving it to the three men because THEY weren't afraid to die what they believed in. They weren't afraid to die for their people. The second quote is self explanatory.
A hero is one who isn't afraid to put his or herself online for the common people, a hero wouldn't stand and watch innocent people get killed, if they could help it. But God, with all his mighty power was able to stand by and watch people get murdered. That's not a hero. More like a Villan.
Wiesel, Elie. Night. New York: Bantam, 1982. Print.
I know of this book, however I did not know just how wrongly this man thinks. I have often observed how people cope with traumatic events(myself included), and I have seen that they normally react in one of two ways. These people either take blow after blow and allow what faith they once had has been crushed, and find that, in doing so, their rational has been crushed along with it. These regretfully pitiful people become blind to the wonder of this world and see all of the terrible things that man has done and make believe that all of these things were not done by man, but were done by God. These people cope by living in this dark, cramped, and cold world where there is no God, and there is no meaning. These are the people that my heart goes out to every day. However, there is the other group, who have remained in there faith. These people find that they have become stronger and can enjoy life all the more for what has happened to them. These people are the fruit of this fallen world, which God has nursed out of the dying soil that is this world.
Now I will begin my argument with the cold light of truth. In your first argument, you make the claim that the victims of the holocaust would have been better off if they had no free will, because they are now dead and free will no longer matters for them. I contest this argument and say that it does matter to these people. If these people had no free will, and the world was this perfect and mindless place which you wish for, then it would not matter if these people died peacefully in there beds or horribly by hanging by the neck. If they died in their beds, then all's well. If they died by being hanged, then neither they or the people doing the hanging would have any will in what they were doing, and would therefore be without meaning. Logically and morally there would be no difference.
After reading the passage from Mr. Wiesel's book, I find myself staring at the words of a terribly twisted mind. He has completely lost his sense of what is true and what is not. He blames God for creating Auschwitz, for burning children, and for torturing men and women. Did God do this? No. Man did this. I would wish this man, and so many more like him, to find there courage. I would wish them to stop cowering behind there idea of an impersonal, cruel, distant, and uncaring God, and come to the truth that it is not some scape goat of there minds who are doing these terrible things, but that it is their own kind who do these things. It is the Nazi soldier who pulls the switch on that furnace. It is the Jewish man who turns on his fellow man for a meager chance of survival. It is the crazed fanatic who orders 6,000,000 Jews dead.
You define a hero as "a man of distinguished courage or ability, admired for his brave deeds and noble qualities", and in your closing statements, you give the men dying on the gallows as examples of what a hero is. I accept your definition of a hero(though there are many others) and agree with your saying that those men were heroes. However, I am amazed that you do not see God as a hero after seeing that you do have such a sublime understanding of what a hero is. When you say that "the three men because THEY weren't afraid to die what they believed in" were heroes, do you not see the Christ? Do you exalt these men for standing up to the Nazis and dying because of it, but dismiss God's becoming a man, and dying as brutally as any of the victims of the Holocaust in order to bring a redemption to a rebellious and terrible world?
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." KJV
God is a hero because when his creation rebelled against him and became to vile to look at, he did not destroy it. In fact, he made the ultimate sacrifice by sending himself to become a human, lived a humble and perfect life, and allowed himself to be tortured and killed in order to free us from the damnation that was owed to us. God did not take the easy way of saving the human race, and talk his way out of his own laws. He took the hardest road of all, and upheld his law. He did not just wave the punishment for us, but he gave himself up for his own punishment for us. This is true love. This, my esteemed opponent, is a hero.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by Ragnar 3 years ago
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Reasons for voting decision: Con was very understanding of the forfeited round.
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