The Instigator
Twigbean
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
ZachZimmey
Con (against)
Winning
10 Points

God is not responsible for the evil in the world.

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
ZachZimmey
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/13/2017 Category: Religion
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 735 times Debate No: 98963
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (12)
Votes (2)

 

Twigbean

Pro

Humanity has free will, therefore anything we do that is considered evil is entirely our fault. If i take the life of another human i chose to do that out of my own free will. No one or thing told me or guided me to committing that act, it was my intention, and the blame can not be placed onto God.
ZachZimmey

Con

Hello and thank you for allowing me to participate in this debate. I will be playing devil's advocate here, as I do not believe God is responsible for sin, but I will try my best to put on a well thought-out debate. I will begin my argument in the next round.

Good luck, and again, Thanks.
Debate Round No. 1
Twigbean

Pro

Hello to you, and thank you for deciding to join in on this debate. I am interested to read your arguments, and test your thought as well as mine. Well as you read from my previous argument, I do not believe that God is the reason for the evil in this world. My logic also states from the previous argument that it is because of the fact we have free will as humans, and decide to do whatever we want on our own. Nothing told me to commit the action and therefore i am the one to blame.

Good luck to you, and thank you as well.
ZachZimmey

Con

God is responsible for everything that has gone on in this Earth, as he was the creator of it. He has planned everything for you and I; knowing our very thughts and actions. David put it this way in Psalm 139:1-2:

"Lord, you have examined me and know all about me. You know when I sit down and when I get up. You know my thoughts before I think them. You know where I go and where I lie down. You know everything I do."

Verse 16 of the same chapter goes on to say this:

"All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be"

"...it is because of the fact we have free will as humans..."

As my information states, God knows EXACTLY what we do and when we do it. Verse 16 also states that God has planned every single day for us, including what we do in them. This is relatively undisputed in Christianity. If this were true, God would have planned for us to have sinned.

"Nothing told me to commit the action..."

Again, the psalmist David very clearly states that God planned everything for our lives, including what we do. God predestined for us the actions we will make. This very clearly contradicts the idea of "free will".

Isaiah 45:7 says this:

"I form light and create darkness; I make well-being and create calamity; I am the LORD, who does all these things."

This verse states very clearly that God has created "darkness" and "calamity", which are used in the Bible to mean sin. This verse is proof that God has created both good AND evil.

John 1:3 has a similar description of God's creation:

"Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made."

If this is true, God has created ALL things, including the sins we make and the actions we take.

It is very easy to see that God has truly created sin and planned our lives day-by-day, meaning God does in fact cause us to sin.
Debate Round No. 2
Twigbean

Pro

Thank you for your reply,

So from what i take it is that, in the first part of your argument you claim that since god is omniscient and knows all of our actions before we do them how can we say we have any true free will? I would like to point out that knowing and causing are two different things.

"Lord, you have examined me and know all about me. You know when I sit down and when I get up. You know my thoughts before I think them. You know where I go and where I lie down. You know everything I do."

This verse is stating that God "knows" everything David has done, or will do. It does not state that God caused it.

Think of it like this. "You are walking up a hill and notice a train track that curves and goes into a tunnel. You see the other side of the track out side of the other end of tunnel. You also notice that a man is stuck on the track and cannot become free as the train approaches from the other side of the tunnel. Knowing that you are too far away to help this man. You know that the incident is going to happen and there is nothing you can do to change the outcome. This does not mean you caused the incident but simply knew the outcome."

"All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be"

Again stating that God knows everything that will happen. Not that he has caused them. Though the usage of "Written in your book" can be used to claim that everything was predestined. I want to point out that these verses have to be interpreted, and we can never truly know what the full extent of their meaning is. But i take it as knowledge of the outcome instead of causing the outcome. Taking the statement literally. You can write about something before it comes to be if you know it to happen, it again does not mean that you caused it to happen.

Onto the second part of your argument.

"I form light and create darkness; I make well-being and create calamity; I am the LORD, who does all these things."

While this does very clearly state that God has created "darkness" and "calamity" It is important to note that no one ever said humans created "good" and "evil" but that we have the option to choose them on our own. Creating good would be impossible unless the opposite was created along with it. God could create humans, but if evil did not exist. Then goodness would be completely useless and without an opposite we couldn't even consider acts of goodness good they are just acts. People would not experience certain things in their life. Which would not allow every individual on this planet their own person with their own characteristics, and would mirror not having true free will.

So in order for true free will, good and evil would have to exist, but the fact that God gave us free will is a greater good than no free will at all. So he would still be an omnibenevolent being.

God has created all the good and evil available to us. But we still have the option to decide whether we commit good or evil actions on our own.
ZachZimmey

Con

Thank you for your patience and my extended leave of absence, as I was unable to post my debate round sooner. I would like to get right into my last round.

"No one or thing told me or guided me to committing [an] act"

"Nothing told me to commit the action and therefore I am the one to blame."

"[We] decide to do whatever we want on our own"

I will use a classic example from the book of Joshua as well as the book of Judges to refute your claims aforementioned.

1)- Joshua 11:20- For it was the Lord himself who hardened their hearts to wage war against Israel, so that he might destroy them totally, exterminating them without mercy, as the Lord had commanded Moses.

2)- Judges 7:22- When the three hundred trumpets sounded, the LORD caused the men throughout the camp to turn on each other with their swords. The army fled to Beth Shittah toward Zererah as far as the border of Abel Meholah near Tabbath.

Your above claims are clearly incorrect according to these two passages. The first one shows that God has the ability to change people's emotions (by the hardening of their hearts, an obvious sin), which is clearly an example of guidance from God. My second Biblical reference shows that God has the ability to cause people to change their physical actions, in this case causing an entire army to disobey their generals (Sin #1) and turn their swords on their comrades and murder them (Sin #2). These two references are clear contradictions to your claims, which means your statements are incorrect. On to your next claims!

"I would like to point out that knowing and causing are two different things."

"God "knows" everything David has done, or will do. It does not state that God caused it"

"You know that the incident is going to happen and there is nothing you can do to change the outcome. This does not mean you caused the incident but simply knew the outcome."

"Again stating that God knows everything that will happen. Not that he has caused them."

True, knowledge and causation are to completely different things, but the inability of God to cause something means that He is not truly a supreme being. Is it not true that God is "All Knowing" and "All Powerful"? Matthew 19:26 says that "...with God all things are possible.” Saying that God cannot cause a person's sin is denying the truth of God's Word.

God created everything. John 1:3 is a prime example of this, saying "Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made." If God truly created everything, is it not also true that he would have caused all the sins (and good) that we were to commit? Saying God only knew that we would sin and not the cause of it is foolishness. I'll give you a silly example to help.

Say you are building a bomb. You are going to plant it in a crowded workspace where it can cause the most devastation for your enemies. When you are done creating it, you plant it, and it goes off exactly an hour later, killing forty people. You are captured and given a trial. In your defense, you admit that you were the builder of the bomb. You also admit that you knew it was going to cause much damage. However, you claim that since the bomb, being completely mechanized and able to detonate without any outside prompting (i.e. a remote control), chose to blow up by itself, meaning you are innocent. The judge sees your point, and you are released with just a warning.

How idiotic would that be? You are essentially saying the same thing when you say that, although God created us and knew we'd sin, did not cause the sin to happen.

Romans 8:28a- And we know that God causes all things..

This verse is more proof of the invalidity of your statements. It clearly says that God causes "ALL things", not just "some things" or just "good things".

In summary, God has the ability (which he often exercises) to cause people to sin, meaning we as humans do not have free will. I would like to thank my opponent for his time and wish him good luck.

Thanks to everyone who will be voting, as I hope they will judge wisely and award points fairly.
Debate Round No. 3
12 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by FollowerofChrist1955 12 months ago
FollowerofChrist1955
You should attend this debate:
Atheism- A lost reality! A hopeless, helpless cause!
Posted by whiteflame 12 months ago
whiteflame
Debate: http://www.debate.org......

Profile: http://www.debate.org......

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>Reported vote: Kescarte_DeJudica// Mod action: NOT Removed<

5 points to Con (Arguments, Sources). Reasons for voting decision: While both participants in this debate did well, Con did much better. He used sources (quotes of biblical passages) to back up his claims, while Pro did not. For this, I award Con Sources. In addition, while Con showed that the Bible passages appear to back up his claims of predestination, Pro argued that they are subject to interpretation. But Pro does not give any sources backing up his claims that man has free will or that the Bible supports this theory, he simply tried to refute Con's argument based on the words of Con's sources. But in his last argument, Con effectively rebutted his opponent's arguments quite effectively by showing more scriptural references backing up his claims. For this, I award Con arguments.

[*Reason for non-removal*] While the vote is borderline on both arguments and sources, the voter does just enough to explain both, providing specifics of the arguments given by both sides and examining some facets of what makes Con"s sources reliable in the voter"s estimation.
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Posted by whiteflame 12 months ago
whiteflame
*******************************************************************
>Reported vote: ChadIrvin// Mod action: Removed<

5 points to Con (Arguments, Sources). Reasons for voting decision: I agreed with pro before the debate, but since con said he believed the same way as pro, I just left it tied. For convincing arguments and reliable sources, I gave the edge to con because he put Bible verses and pro did not.

[*Reason for removal*] (1) Arguments are insufficiently explained. The voter is required to provide some reason why the points made in the debate decided their vote. That requires more than simply stating that one side had the edge for unknown reasons. (2) Sources are insufficiently explained. The voter is required to do more than simply state that one side used Bible verses " it must be clear why those sources were reliable.
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Posted by Zaephou 1 year ago
Zaephou
God is supposedly omniscient, and so knew before he created the universe that humans and nature will commit to evil, but he created us anyway. He is therefore responsible for the evil in this world before he even created the universe.
Posted by canis 1 year ago
canis
A god exist...Who is responsible for the existance of a god = you
a god does not exist... Who is responsible for the non existance of a god = you
Posted by canis 1 year ago
canis
A god exist...Who is responsible. = you
A god does not exist.. Who is responsible.. = you
Posted by vi_spex 1 year ago
vi_spex
and god
Posted by ZachZimmey 1 year ago
ZachZimmey
By saying you are not responsible for evil makes you a liar, therefore making you evil.
Posted by vi_spex 1 year ago
vi_spex
if i was responsible for evil i would be a lier
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by Praxidicai 12 months ago
Praxidicai
TwigbeanZachZimmeyTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
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Total points awarded:05 
Reasons for voting decision: I put tied for who I agreed with before and after the debate as I don't believe in God therefore I have no opinion on God's responsibility for evil. Conduct of both parties was excellent and spelling or grammar did not significantly differ. I will award sources to con as he supplied bible verses to support his theological points while pro merely referenced sources provided by con. In round 2, con argued that God does not merely know past and future events, but that God has planned such outcomes in advance, In round 3, pro's arguments seemed to miss this point and pro described con's position as asserting that knowledge of an event entailed responsibility for it. Pro's argumentation here was flawed by arguing a point that con didn't appear to make and con effectively countered the rebuttals in round 3 by providing sources indicating that God has influenced people to commit evil actions and thus refuting free will. I therefore award con the points for more convincing arguments.
Vote Placed by Kescarte_DeJudica 1 year ago
Kescarte_DeJudica
TwigbeanZachZimmeyTied
Agreed with before the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
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Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
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Total points awarded:05 
Reasons for voting decision: While both participants in this debate did well, Con did much better. He used sources (quotes of biblical passages) to back up his claims, while Pro did not. For this, I award Con Sources. In addition, while Con showed that the Bible passages appear to back up his claims of predestination, Pro argued that they are subject to interpretation. But Pro does not give any sources backing up his claims that man has free will or that the Bible supports this theory, he simply tried to refute Con's argument based on the words of Con's sources. But in his last argument, Con effectively rebutted his opponent's arguments quite effectively by showing more scriptural references backing up his claims. For this, I award Con arguments.