The Instigator
Seagull
Pro (for)
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The Contender
thebestdebate
Con (against)
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God is not worthy of worship

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Voting Style: Open Point System: Select Winner
Started: 5/3/2016 Category: Religion
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 2,508 times Debate No: 90095
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (65)
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Seagull

Pro

Resolved: God is not worthy of worship

I realize the nature of this topic is likely to garner the contempt of many. I respectfully ask that you spare me any personal attacks. I sincerely want to debate this topic. I am not motivated to do so out of a desire to disrespect anyone or their beliefs. Rather, I desire this debate as a chance to share ideas. I have done what I can to make this debate impossible to accept. Please apply in the comments. Once an opponent is chosen, we will establish ground rules and format.

Clarification: This is in reference to a tri-omni God


Before I begin, I want to make clear that in this debate, I am addressing what is known as the God of Christianity. The reason for this distinction is largely because the Christian God is the one with whom I am most often confronted. Of course, I understand Christianity is fragmented when it comes to doctrine and beliefs. However, notwithstanding the difference in doctrine between Christian denominations, it seems reasonable to say that on balance, Christians believe in what is known as the Tri-Omni God. That is to say, they believe in a God that is Omnipotent, Omniscient, and Omnibenevolent. For the sake of clarity, I will briefly expand on what seems to be intended by these attributes

Omnipotent is a reference to power. That is to say, one that is omnipotent is all powerful. For instance, Christians often refer to their God as the “Almighty.“ Indeed, Mathew 19:26 reads “With God, all things are possible.”(1)Demonstrations of this supposed power include; healing the sick, causing a virgin birth, destruction, great floods, raising the dead, and creating the earth itself. C.S. Lewis, perhaps one of the most well know Christian Apologetics, stated the following. “His Omnipotence means power to do all that is intrinsically possible, not to do the intrinsically impossible. You may attribute miracles to him, but not nonsense. This is no limit to his power.”(2) In summary, God is said to have unlimited power.

This brings us to the second attribute of God; Omniscience. This is a reference to the knowledge of God. One that is omniscient, knows all. Christians tend to refer to God as the “Seat of all Knowledge.” In fact, this is one of the standard arguments giving for prayer or scripture study. As the oft quoted proverb states; “Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him and he will direct thy paths.”(3)

We now arrive at the final attribute of the tri-omni God; Omni benevolence. This is the belief that God is morally perfect, the ultimate good. The New Testament states “He that loveth not, knoweth not God; for God is love.”(4)

Thus, in this debate, my opponent must defend a God as defined by these three attributes. Again, they are Omnipotence, Omniscience, and omnibeneovolence.

Sources

(1) Bible
(2) C. S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain
(3) Bible Proverbs 3: 5-6

(4) Bible 1 John 4:8

thebestdebate

Con

I'm apologize for prolonging my acceptance. I accept this debate! It seems to me that God entirely worthy of worship. I stand for this belief for several reasons, some of them being what you have described for the Tri-omnicent God. Thank you and I look forward to this debate!
Debate Round No. 1
Seagull

Pro

Is God Worthy of Worship?

"is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then, he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then, he is malevolent. Is God, both able and willing? Then, whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then, why call him God?" (Epicurus, the Greek philosopher)

I imagine most have been exposed at one time or another to the Problem of evil. The quote from Epicurus is perhaps its original form. Here I will demonstrate that Evil exists, and that because of this reality, God as defined in Christianity does not exist and is therefore not worthy of worship.

Evil exists

I imagine that all who observe the world we live in notice the reality of Evil. For example, there exists a multiplicity of instances of intense suffering. Often this happens to the innocent, or at the very least, the undeserving of the suffering to which they are subjected. Sam Harris put it this way. "Nine million children die every year before they reach the age of five. Picture an Asian tsunami of the sort we saw in 2004 that killed a quarter of a million people; one of those every ten days killing children only under five. That"s twenty four thousand a day, one thousand and hour, seventeen or so a minute" Any God who would allow children by the millions to suffer and die in this way and their parents to grieve in this way either can do nothing to help them, or does not care to. He is therefore either impotent or evil." (5)

Remember, this is not a comprehensive account of evil that exists. It is merely the tip of the iceberg. Imagine all of the other people that suffer evil through no fault of their own. Consider the sentient animals that can and often do suffer. While many may argue the semantics of evil or what evil consists of, it seems clear that the intense suffering of the innocent is evil. Thus, it seems to me clear; Evil indisputably exists.

The Logical problem

The following is taken from the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy.

"P1) If God exists, then God is omnipotent, omniscient, and morally perfect.

P2) If God is omnipotent, then God has the power to eliminate all evil.

P3) If God is omniscient, then God knows when evil exists.

P4) If God is morally perfect, then God has the desire to eliminate all evil.

P5) Evil exists.

P6) If evil exists and God exists, then either God doesn"t have the power to eliminate all evil, or doesn"t know when evil exists, or doesn"t have the desire to eliminate all evil.

C) Therefore, God doesn"t exist.(6)"

Conclusion

The God as defined in Christianity does not exist. This is clearly demonstrated through the problem of evil. A God that does not exist is inherently not worthy of worship. Even outside the scope of this essay, we see that if a God did exist, he or she is "either impotent, or evil" and would also not be worthy of worship.

Sources

(5)
https://www.youtube.com...

(6) http://plato.stanford.edu...


thebestdebate

Con

Thank you Seagull for choosing me for this debate! I would to begin by saying you make some excellent points. The problem of evil is an ancient idea, but after close inspection, I believe I have found quite a flaw. I will first explain to you the errors in your points and then present you with a different reason as to why God is entirely worthy of worship.

The Logical Problem with the Logical Problem

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then, he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then, he is malevolent. Is God, both able and willing? Then, whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then, why call him God?" This is a very strong point, but it’s subject to two common fallacies: bifurcation and post hoc ergo propter hoc. The problems reside primarily in this phrase: “is he able, but not willing? Then, he is malevolent.” Post hoc ergo propter hoc, often known as the faulty cause, mistakes correlation or association for causation, by assuming that because one thing follows another it was caused by the other [1]. Epicurus argues this: ifGod exists and is all powerful and all knowing, God is obligated to destroy evil. God hasn’t destroyed evil, therefore he himself is evil or he does not exist. A problem with this is that it assumes God is obligated to fix evil. However, what we so quickly forget is that evil is a fault of our own. Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit [2]. The first evil was committed by man, not by God. That sin allowed evil into the world, and it is our fault. Because it is our fault, God is not obligated to fix it. Of course he will, but he isn’t and shouldn’t be required to clean up to mess we made. So the presence of evil does not prove that God is either evil or he does not exist. The second fallacy is bifurcation. This fallacy assumes that two categories are mutually exclusive and exhaustive, that is, something is either a member of one or the other, but not both or some other third category [1]. What is being said here is that, God is either evil for letting evil exist, or he doesn’t exist and that’s why evil does. However, it has been explained that God is not evil for letting evil exist. Epicurus, may not have realized this. Also, malevolence, as defined by Merriam Webster, is “having or showing a desire to cause harm to another person [3].” If we are to say that God is malevolent, we presume he exists. God is also described as being omnipotent, all powerful. If an all powerful God is malevolent, he would simply destroy us.

We know that God is not evil. In my next argument I will describe reasons as to why he is worthy of worship. Not just defend his attributes. Thank you.

Sources

1) http://commfaculty.fullerton.edu...

2) https://www.biblegateway.com...

3) http://www.merriam-webster.com...

Debate Round No. 2
Seagull

Pro

Thank you Thebestdebate for your round. Let us submerge once again into the topic.

Epicurus is arguing that if God is as defined in round one would not allow evil to exist. It seems intuitive to see that such a being that is omnipotent and omniscient would be worthy of worship if he did eliminate evil. Epicurus is not confusing correlation or association for causation, he is stating that if one is able and willing to do what is moral and does not, they cannot logically be morally perfect. This is basic logic, not fallacious at all.

My opponent argues that evil is the fault of man citing the fable of Adam and Eve. This heavily misses the mark for several reasons. Let’s pretend for a moment that the story is true. The supposed sin that was committed was the partaking of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Oddly enough, a Tri-omni God did not have to create that tree, did not have to place it where he did, and did not have to tell Adam and Eve what or where it was. Assuming God’s foreknowledge (his omniscience), he knew that placing the tree there would result in Adam and Eve partaking in the fruit, thus causing the fall of man. It seems more than reasonable to blame God for the fall rather than Adam or Eve in this story. To accept this story is to accept that God created the world, and man and put them in such a way that God knew they would “fall” and cause evil. This seems to me to demonstrate that God according to this story is as responsible if not more so for the fall of man and Evil than Adam.

Perhaps even more devastating to this argument is the fact that there is no evidence that Adam and Eve ever existed. Indeed, evidence convincingly demonstrates that they did not exist. Evolution demonstrates there was no first man, or woman thus no original sin, no garden of Eden, no reason to believe evil is the fault of man’s so called original sin. We can reasonable conclude that the existence of evil is the fault and design of an all-powerful God if such a God exists. This leaves us with two options. God is either evil himself, or does not exist. Either way, God is not worthy of worship.
thebestdebate

Con

thebestdebate forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
Seagull

Pro

Well, bummer.

Thanks thebestdebate for accepting this debate. I am sorry to see you forfiet the round.

I will simply summarize my position as I have nothing to respond to.

The God as defined in Christianity does not exist. This is clearly demonstrated through the problem of evil. A God that does not exist is inherently not worthy of worship. Even outside the scope of this essay, we see that if a God did exist, he or she is "either impotent, or evil" and would also not be worthy of worship.
thebestdebate

Con

So I ran into a problem when I was finishing this debate. Because I can only have 6,000 characters I couldn't fit everything I needed to argue into this round. The full argument is at these two links:

https://iroquoissd-my.sharepoint.com...

AND


https://drive.google.com...

If neither of these two work, I have posted the full argument in the comments just in case. However, here is my case for worship in this round.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As for this debate, it wouldn't be fitting to finish without backing the fact that God is entirely worthy of worship. There are many reasons we should worship God. We should worship God for Creation. God made the whole of Creation in only six days and he put us here to enjoy that creation. The universe is so beautiful. The skies are filled with countless stars, the oceans are so large that we are yet to explore 95% of it [9], life itself is so complex we can't even begin to fathom it, the universe may be infinite, and so much more. Creation is so fantastic and so complex. God created it all so we could live in it. We ought to be thankful for this and God deserves way more worship than we can ever muster. Secondly, God is worthy of worship for his perfect plans for us. As described in Isaiah 55:8-9, Gods plans are so big that it is sometimes impossible for us to understand [4]. Also, The first chapter of Habakkuk explains that Gods will is being fulfilled among all the strife of this world [5]. Even more, Jerimiah 29:11 explains that God has a plan for every last one of us. "For I know the plans I have for you,' declares the LORD, 'plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future [10]." Worship God for his will and plans for you, whatever they may be, because he wants the best for all of his children. Also, worship God because He never ever leaves us (Joshua 1:5), worship God for His unfailing love (Psalm 13:5), worship God because He is faithful when we’re not (Isaiah 30:18), and worship God for the Bible. How cool is it that we don’t have to guess what God wants from us? We don’t have to wonder if He loves us. He has given us His Word to read and study so we can know Him as well as we want (John 20:31). God is entirely worthy of worship for so many reasons. I suggest you look into all of them.

I thank you for this debate and I thank the Lord for giving me the opportunity to represent him in this debate. I really do apologize for my forfeiture. I will be posting this in the comments in case the link doesn't work.

Thank you. Please Vote Pro.

Debate Round No. 4
65 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by thebestdebate 1 year ago
thebestdebate
Closing Argument Here:

Hello Seagull and I really do apologize for my forfeiture in the last round (Prom was this last weekend so I was really busy). Because I still wish to have this debate I will fit the reinforcement of my previous contentions and my current contentions into this round. Again, I apologize for my poor timing when accepting this debate.
Posted by thebestdebate 1 year ago
thebestdebate
Reinforcement of the Logical Problem with the Logical Problem
To touch back on your rebuttal of my first contention, let"s remember that my claim that the logical problem contains a bifurcation. This fallacy assumes that two categories are mutually exclusive and exhaustive, that is, something is either a member of one or the other, but not both or some other third category [1]. Epicurus argues that, because evil exists, either God does not exist or he is malevolent. This falls under the fallacy of bifurcation because it excludes any other possibility, such as God existing and being benevolent. Because Epicurus is so reluctant to consider other possibilities, his argument renders a fallacy. Perhaps if Epicurus were to investigate scripture he would better understand that there is this other possibility. As I stated earlier, Adam and Eve were the first humans to sin [2], and because of that sin, evil has run amuck in our world. God allows that evil to exist. No one fully understands why (and you'll know for what reason in a little bit), but there are a few possible explanations for it. Jesus explains in the parable of the weeds that he had not come into the world to destroy evil, but he came for the kingdom of God to grow amidst that evil until the day evil is destroyed [3]. God's grace and plans may be hard to understand, and we may not like it, but he has a reason for letting evil exist. Furthermore, God's will and plans are far more complex than we can understand. Isaiah 55:8-9 reads "My thoughts are nothing like your thoughts," says the LORD. "And my ways are far beyond anything you could imagine [4]." God's reason for allowing evil to exist may be far beyond the scope of the human mind to comprehend. Lastly, God allows evil to exist to fulfill his plans for something better in the world. Habakkuk was a minor prophet and his book is found near the end of the Old Testament. He prays to God and, to put it bluntly, complains about what is happening in Israel.
Posted by thebestdebate 1 year ago
thebestdebate
He says "O Lord, how long shall I cry for help, and you will not hear? Or cry to you "Violence!" and you will not save? Why do you make me see iniquity, and why do you idly look at wrong? Destruction and violence are before me; strife and contention arise. So the law is paralyzed, and justice never goes forth. For the wicked surround the righteous; so justice goes forth perverted [5]." Habakkuk is confused as to why God is allowing evil to run rampant in Israel, very similar to what Epicurus is asking. God responds later in the chapter by saying "Look among the nations, and see; wonder and be astounded. For I am doing a work in your days that you would not believe if told [6]." God is letting evil exist so his will may be fulfilled. Although we may not like how he does it, his perfect plans will be completed. The methods he uses may be difficult to understand, but that doesn't make them evil. Epicurus did not understand God well enough to rid himself of this fallacy, but it's still a fallacy.
Posted by thebestdebate 1 year ago
thebestdebate
Reinforcement of the Adam & Eve Argument

I understand your confusion about the account of Adam and Eve. It is possible this question has been asked since the beginning of our race. Why did God put the forbidden tree in the Garden of Eden if he knew Adam and Eve would sin? Many critics of the Bible have been using this thought as a tool to battle the Bible for quite some time. There may not be a single answer (refer back to Isaiah 55:8-9), but we have some ideas. The most common answer you will hear to this age old question regards free will and obedience. An excerpt from Christian Thought reads "The tree of the knowledge of good and evil was there, in part, to provide humans with a choice: to obey the Voice of God or not. Had there been no choice, there could be no obedience. The ongoing question for us is whether we will choose to follow, love and obey the One True God. Yes, I think God knew that some people would choose to follow. Others would choose to follow their own designs. That is not a failure in God but in us [7]." This is the most accepted answer to the question. God, although he knew Adam and Eve would sin, allowed them to. It was a choice made completely by man. Therefore, the first sin does in fact lie on man.
Posted by thebestdebate 1 year ago
thebestdebate
Contrary to popular opinion, there is evidence to support the lives of both Adam and Eve. The most compelling evidence comes in the form of cellular biology. Dr. Nathaniel Jeanson, a Harvard graduate with doctorates in both cellular and developmental biology, has proven that the account of Adam and Eve to be genetically realistic. Every species on Earth has what biologists call a "clock" that measures how long a species has been around for. DNA and RNA is passed down from generation to generation imperfectly. Because of this, genetic differences between generations of isolated species grow as time goes on. This is true not only in DNA found in the nucleus, but in mitochondria as well [8]. However, unlike nucleic DNA, mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) is only inherited through the mother. That being said, differences found in the mtDNA of modern individuals can be traced back to our race's maternal ancestor. Thanks to Dr. Jeanson, this variation can be measured mathematically with d = 2rt (where d is the genetic variation within the species, r is measured rate of mutation within the species, and t is time of origin derived from each origins model). Knowing the rate at which mutation occurs and how much our mtDNA varies within our species (which is very little), Dr. Jeanson has found that our race is only about 6-10,000 years old (shown in the diagram found in [8]). He also did this test for fruit flies, round worms, and water fleas. Every test resulted in the same answer. As genetic and biological science clearly shows, it is very possible and in fact likely that both Adam and Eve existed. We know this because of empirical evidence that is directly observable, testable, and repeatable, unlike evolution. So unlike the claims of many, evidence shows that both Adam and Eve could and are actually likely to have existed.
Posted by thebestdebate 1 year ago
thebestdebate
Reasons for Worship

As for this debate, it wouldn't be fitting to finish without backing the fact that God is entirely worthy of worship. There are many reasons we should worship God. We should worship God for Creation. God made the whole of Creation in only six days and he put us here to enjoy that creation. The universe is so beautiful. The skies are filled with countless stars, the oceans are so large that we are yet to explore 95% of it [9], life itself is so complex we can't even begin to fathom it, the universe may be infinite, and so much more. Creation is so fantastic and so complex. God created it all so we could live in it. We ought to be thankful for this and God deserves way more worship than we can ever muster. Secondly, God is worthy of worship for his perfect plans for us. As described in Isaiah 55:8-9, Gods plans are so big that it is sometimes impossible for us to understand [4]. Also, The first chapter of Habakkuk explains that Gods will is being fulfilled among all the strife of this world [5]. Even more, Jerimiah 29:11 explains that God has a plan for every last one of us. "For I know the plans I have for you,' declares the LORD, 'plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future [10]." Worship God for his will and plans for you, whatever they may be, because he wants the best for all of his children. Also, worship God because He never ever leaves us (Joshua 1:5), worship God for His unfailing love (Psalm 13:5), worship God because He is faithful when we"re not (Isaiah 30:18), and worship God for the Bible. How cool is it that we don"t have to guess what God wants from us? We don"t have to wonder if He loves us. He has given us His Word to read and study so we can know Him as well as we want (John 20:31). God is entirely worthy of worship for so many reasons. I suggest you look into all of them.
Posted by thebestdebate 1 year ago
thebestdebate
I thank you for this debate and I thank the Lord for giving me the opportunity to represent him in this debate. I really do apologize for my forfeiture.

Thank you. Please Vote Pro.

Sources (Copy & Paste Websites if it Helps)

1) http://commfaculty.fullerton.edu...
2) https://www.biblegateway.com...
3) Matthew 13:24-43, New International Version
4) Isaiah 55:8-9, New Living Translation
5) Habakkuk (great book actually) 1:2-4, English Standard Version
6) Habakkuk 1:5, English standard Version
7) https://christianthought.hbu.edu...
8) http://www.icr.org...
9) http://oceanservice.noaa.gov...
10) http://biblehub.com...
Posted by thebestdebate 1 year ago
thebestdebate
I didn't mean to forfeit. Prom was this weekend and I found myself with no time to write anything
Posted by Seagull 1 year ago
Seagull
Please don't forfeit.
Posted by Boneyard 1 year ago
Boneyard
Is anyone else beginning to worry about followofchrists sanity. No matter what ever point is set against him good or bad the poor sot continues with a hand wave and the absurdness of a zealot. Its as thought he is screaming in an empty room at imaginary voices.
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