The Instigator
Rasheed
Pro (for)
Losing
1 Points
The Contender
Wandile
Con (against)
Winning
14 Points

God is represented better in the Qu'ran than in the Bible

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 3 votes the winner is...
Wandile
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/14/2011 Category: Religion
Updated: 5 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,489 times Debate No: 19600
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (5)
Votes (3)

 

Rasheed

Pro

The Glorious Qu'ran represents the mercy, majesty, and power of God better than the Bible. God is shown in the Qu'ran as wise, patient, and just, while He is seen in the Bible as petty, forgetful, and hateful.

1. The burden of proof is on pro.

2. First round is for acceptance.
Wandile

Con

I accept the challenge and I'm humbled to debate this topic with my honorable opponent. This will most definitely be the greatest of all our debates.

Good luck
Debate Round No. 1
Rasheed

Pro


I thank my esteemed opponent for his acceptance and agree that this will be a titanic debate which we will both enjoy.

An overview of the Creator

Muslims and Christians have a very different view of the Creator and what 'His' attributes are and how we experience his mercy and grace, and we draw our differences from the religious books that we say are revealed by 'Him' (I loosely use these gender specific terms because in Islam the word 'Allah' is gender neutral, that is, we do not believe the Originator of the Heavens and Earth has a sex, as it has no need to reproduce).

I will provide for the reader passages from both the Christian Bible and the Glorious Qu'ran on various topics so that they are able to determine which Holy Book best depicts the power, wisdom, and majesty of an Almighty Creator.

Does the Creator rest?

The purpose of rest is to rebuild our energy after prolonged activity. Does an all powerful Creator have need of rest? According to the Christian Bible He does;

"By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work." Genesis 2:2

"It will be a sign between me and the Israelites forever, for in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he abstained from work and rested." Exodus 31:17

What does the Muslim Qu'ran say on this matter?

"See thy not that Allah, Who create the heavens and the earth was not tired by their creation, is able to give life to the dead? Aye. He is surely Possessor of power over all things." Surah 46:33

"And certainly We created the heavens and the earth and what is between them in six periods, and no fatigue touched Us." Surah 50:38

THE CREATOR QUESTIONED AND CORRECTED

The Christian Bible tells a curious story of Moses (may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) correcting his Maker;

"“I have seen these people,” the LORD said to Moses, “and they are a stiff-necked people. Now leave me alone so that my anger may burn against them and that I may destroy them. Then I will make you into a great nation.”But Moses sought the favor of the LORD his God. “LORD,” he said, “why should your anger burn against your people, whom you brought out of Egypt with great power and a mighty hand?Why should the Egyptians say, ‘It was with evil intent that he brought them out, to kill them in the mountains and to wipe them off the face of the earth’? Turn from your fierce anger; relent and do not bring disaster on your people. Remember your servants Abraham, Isaac and Israel, to whom you swore by your own self: ‘I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and I will give your descendants all this land I promised them, and it will be their inheritance forever.’”Then the LORD relented and did not bring on his people the disaster he had threatened." Exodus 32:9-14

The scenario above does not sound like an Almighty, wise, divine Being communicating with its far inferior creation, but rather like a wise man reminding an omnipotent brat not to throw a fit. How blasphemous an image!!

The Qu'ran gives an entirely different picture of the Creator;

"He cannot be questioned as to what He does, and they will be questioned." Surah 21:23

Does a merciful God order slaughter?

In the Christian Bible we read;

"Prepare a place to slaughter his sons for the sins of their forefathers; they are not to rise to inherit the land and cover the earth with their cities." Isaiah 14:21

"This is what the LORD Almighty says: ‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. 3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’” 1 Samuel 15:2-3

"Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." Deuteronomy 13:13-19

Now contrast that bloodthirsty view with the rules of war given in the Qu'ran;

"Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loves not transgressors. And kill them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out; for persecution and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, kill them. Such is the reward of those who reject faith. But if they cease, God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in God; but if they cease, let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression." Surah 2:190-193.

Notice that in the above verses it is only permissible to fight

1. Those who fight you,

2. do not exceed limits (killing innocents),

3. And fighting must stop if the opponent stops fighting.

Nowhere in the Qu'ran can the Creator be found giving orders to kill women and children.

As you can see the Qu'ran paints a picture of a powerful, dignified, just Creator that is wiser than His creation, while the Biblical image shows an angry, bloodthirsty God that visits vengence on the guilty and innocent alike.

Which image of the Creator is more accurate?

I await my opponents response.


References:

1. New International Version of the Bible

2. Maulana Muhammad translation of the Holy Qu'ran


Wandile

Con

I am delighted to express my utmost gratitude for my opponent's well constructed and concise arguments. I am deeply honored to explore the theological accuracy and validity of his arguments.

1- DOES THE CREATOR REST?

What is the exact definition of rest? My opponent puts this forward :

"The purpose of rest is to rebuild our energy after prolonged activity. Does an all powerful Creator have need of rest? According to the christian Bible he does ; "

This is very easy to explain ;
In acknowledgment of my opponents question, this is what the Bible has to say on the issue of God the Creator getting tired and needing rest :

"Do you not know? Have you not heard? The Everlasting God ,the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth does not become weary or tired." (Isaiah 41:28)

So what then did Genesis 2:2 and Exodus 31:17 mean when these passages stated that God rested? Well, what first needs to be established is that the Old Testament was written in Hebrew, not English. So when Genesis 2:2 and Exodus 31:17 write the word "rest", the original hebrew uses the word "shabbat" where rest appears in the english bible. Shabbat means "ceased" or "to come to an end". Hence it is easy to understand what the passages actually mean when they state God "rested". Basically, when the Bible says God "rested" it simply means that God ceased creating the earth or that God brought the creation of the earth to an end (because He was finished), not that He's rested because he was tired (nowhere does it ever say that God was tired) .

2- THE CREATOR QUESTIONED AND CORRECTED

My opponent opens with this :

"The christian bible tells a curious story of Moses
(May peace and blessings be upon him) correcting his Maker"

This is not true. In Exodus 32:9-14 Moses is actually pleading with God to show mercy on the Israelites, Moses does this by reminding (although God does not forget) God of the promises that He made to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. If Moses was questioning God, this would be blasphemy against God's omniscience. God ,in this passage, is only wiling to listen to Moses as he is the only righteous Israelite left. Thus Moses becomes mediator between God and the Israelites and pleads on behalf of the Israelites for God's mercy. In answer to the prayers of Moses, God relents from casting His just judgment upon Israel. This is one of the greatest acts of God's loving mercy in the bible. At the very point of judgment, God is still willing to accept prayers of repentance. Even at the last minute, God does not want to cast His judgment upon his people even when He is infuriated by the sins of His people. Rather at the point of judgment God is still willing to relent from casting His judgment and show mercy on Israel.

Throughout the bible God shows that he dislikes casting judgments on his creation. He always tells his people that the only way God will relent is if His creation repent and turn back to Him :

"The Lord is not slow in keeping His promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to parish, but everyone to come to repentance." (2 Peter 3:9)

" "If you will turn, O Israel, return to me," declares the LORD. "If you put your detestable idols out of my sight and no longer go astray, and if in a truthful, just and righteous way you swear, 'As surely as the LORD lives,' then the nations will be blessed by Him and in Him the will glory." " (Jeremiah 4:1-2)

"Therefore, O house of Israel, I will judge you, each one according to his ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall...For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!" (Ezekiel 18:30-32)

"Repent, then and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord." (Acts 3:19)

I ask the reader : After all this, is God represented as a "brat throwing a fit" or as a loving Father who seeks the repentance of His children, who have gone astray, so that they may avoid His righteous wrath? I'll let you decide.

3- DOES A MERCIFUL GOD ORDER SLAGHTER?

My opponent quotes 1 Samuel 15:2-3, Isaiah 14:21 and Deuteronomy 13:13-19 and indirectly asserts that the scriptures represent God as merciless and bloodthirsty.

1 Samuel 15:2-3

The book of 1 Samuel contains an account of God's orders for Saul to destroy the people of Amalek. The Amalekites were descended from Amalek (whose name means plunderer), who was son of Eliphaz and grandson of Esau. The Amalekites were wicked and warlike people, and were first to oppose Israel after liberation from Egypt. As descendants of Esau, they were likely aware of God's promise to Jacob (Esau's twin brother and father of the Israelites), but rather than honor God's choice of Israel, they instead elected to be Israel's enemy.

The Amalekites would deliberately and cowardly attack and murder the weak, young and elderly Israelites who sometimes lagged behind the core group of Israelites who were making their way to the promised land. The book of Judges (6:3-5) records that the Amalekites constantly allied themselves with other nations to commit genocide against Israel.

Amazingly, God chose not to destroy the Amalekites until around 470 years had elapsed. Such an incredibly long period of time shows the mercy and patience God had on the Amalekites. It shows that God is not quick to anger and does not rush to judge those who are constantly sinning against Him, but rather allows them time to repent. Although God commanded Saul to completely destroy the Amalekites, he disobeyed God(1 Samuel 15:9-26) and spared some of them. The outcome of Saul's disobedience was another attempt of genocide inflicted upon Israel by the Amalekites through their descendant Haman (as recorded in the book of Esther).

#for more info ----� (www.carm.org/god-of-old-testament-a-monster)

Isaiah 14:21

The prophecy is about Babylon. These words are directed to Medes and Persians to prepare themselves instruments of slaughter and make use of them. The prophecy threatens the Babylonians that all the children of Babylon will be killed for the iniquity of their fathers; and their children who imitated and followed their fathers in their sins, partaking of them and filling up the measure of their inequities. The Prophecy was fulfilled in 539BC when the Medo-Persian empire(539BC-334BC) destroyed the Bablyonian empire.

The prophecy portrays an attribute of God that is infamous, His justness. God cast His just judgment(slaughter of the Babylonians) for centuries of their unrepented sins. This may seem harsh but the bible firmly teaches that the punishment of sin Is death. This is true as through Adam's sin, death entered the world (Romans 5:12 , Genesis 2:17)

For more info ----� (www.goodbooksfree.com/commentaries/gill/23014.html)

Deuteronomy 13:13-19

I'm not fond of repeating myself so I would rather keep this short. Idolatry and worshiping false gods is a huge offense to God. Under the Old Covenant of God (the Law of Moses) God saw fit to give just punishment to such offenses. This once again displays God's just nature and that all His judgments, although hash in human opinion, are truly just.

Consequently these passages do NOT display a bloodthirsty and merciless tyrant but rather a merciful, patient and (most importantly) just God.

MY OFFENSE :

I will present an offense in the proceeding round as this round I was solely focused on rebuttals.

As a result I still maintain the position that the Bible represents God in better light than the Qur'an.
I eagerly await my opponents response.

REFERENCES :
*www.bible.cc/exodus/32-14.htm

*www.evidenceforchristianity.org/index.php?option=com_custom_content&task=view&id=4429

*www.angelfire.com/journal/althehare/moses_exo32.html

*www.raptureready.com/soap/jl1.html
Debate Round No. 2
Rasheed

Pro

I would like to thank my worthy opponent for his thoughtful rebuttal.

Moses corrects God revised

Mr. Wandile says that;

"Moses is actually pleading with God to show mercy on the Israelites, Moses does this by reminding (although God does not forget) God of the promises that He made to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob."

Is it acceptable to approach an all powerful supreme being and remind it of a promise it made? This action alone would eliminate the one who is being reminded of being worthy of worship because it has displayed that it is not omnipotent, as it claims. Thus the Bible does not represent the majesty and power of the creator well.

Justifying slaughter

My opponent justifies the genocide of a group of people in the Bible thusly;

"The Amalekites would deliberately and cowardly attack and murder the weak, young and elderly Israelites who sometimes lagged behind the core group of Israelites who were making their way to the promised land. The book of Judges (6:3-5) records that the Amalekites constantly allied themselves with other nations to commit genocide against Israel.

Amazingly, God chose not to destroy the Amalekites until around 470 years had elapsed. Such an incredibly long period of time shows the mercy and patience God had on the Amalekites. It shows that God is not quick to anger and does not rush to judge those who are constantly sinning against Him, but rather allows them time to repent."

I fail to see where the children and women of the Amalekites were guilty of hostility towards the Children of Israel. Does the fact that two nations are at war justify the slaughter of an entire people?

How can we make a moral distinction between what Hitler, Stalin, and the other mass murderers of the world and the Creator if they all rationalize their crimes by saying that their enemies were beyond redemption?

No, a just Creator would not order the wanton slaughter of innocents because its soldiers were at war with another nation.

God can't see into the future?

Bible:

"And GOD saw that the wickedness of man [was] great in the earth, and [that] every imagination of the thoughts of his heart [was] only evil continually. And the LORD repented that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart." Genesis 6:5-6

This sounds like a craftsman that has built a porch incorrectly, not like the Supreme Intelligence.

Quran:

"With Him (God) are the keys to all secrets; none knows them except He. He knows everything on land and in the sea. Not a leaf falls without His knowledge. Nor is there a grain in the depths of the soil. Nor is there anything wet or dry, that is not recorded in a profound record." Qur'an 6:59

DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THE CREATOR IN THE BIBLE AND QURAN.

In the examples below I aim to show the reader that the Creator of the Bible learns from mistakes, just like this creation, while the one of the Quran is both above his creation and has supreme knowledge of all events.

Bible:

"And God said, let us make a man in our image, after our likeness." Genesis 1:26

Image is another word for reflection, so if I have a nose then the Creator has one, and so on. Does this sound like a Being worthy of worship?

Quran:

"Say He is God, the One and Only God, the Eternal, Absolute. He begets not, nor is He begotten. And there is none like unto Him!" Qur'an112:1-4

FAITH OR WORKS?

Are we required to do good works to show our belief or is faith alone enough to please the Creator?

Bible:

"We conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law." Roman 3:28

Quran:

"Do men think that they will be left alone on saying we believe and they will not be tested? But, we did test those before them and God will certainly know those who are true from those who are false." Qur'an 29:1

Incest, drunks, and whore mongers, can they be Prophets?

In the Christian Bible the most vile people are called to represent the Creator to mankind, but in the Muslim Qu'ran we find no trace of the horrible charges leveled at the representatives of the Most HIgh.

Lot in the Bible;

"they got their father to drink wine, and the older daughter went in and lay with him. He was not aware of it when she lay down or when she got up. … So both of Lot’s daughters became pregnant by their father." Genesis 19:33-36

The Lot of the Bible could not use being drunk as an excuse for sleeping with his daughters, and would surely be serving a lengthy prison sentence in every modern society.

Lot in the Quran;

"Lot, We gave him right judgment and knowledge … And We admitted him to Our Mercy; truly, he was of the righteous." (Quran, 21:74,75)

Solomon in the Bible;

"turned his heart after other gods, and his heart was not fully devoted to the Lord his God, as the heart of David his father had been. He followed Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians, and Molech the detestable god of the Ammonites ...On a hill east of Jerusalem, Solomon built a high place for Chemosh the detestable god of Moab,…" (1 Kings 11:4-7)

Solomon in the Quran;

"Solomon, and they both said: “All the praises and thanks are to Allah, Who has preferred us above many of His believing slaves!” (Quran, 27:15)

Jacob lies in the Bible;

" said to his father, "I am Esau your firstborn ... Please sit up and eat some of my game so that you may give me your blessing." … When Isaac caught the smell of his clothes, he blessed him (Jacob).

… Esau said, "… He (Jacob) has deceived me these two times: He took my birthright, and now he’s taken my blessing!” (Genesis 27:19-36)

"The Lord has a charge to bring against Judah; he will punish Jacob according to his ways and repay him according to his deeds. In the womb he grasped his brother’s heel; as a man he struggled with God. He struggled with the angel and overcame him; he wept and begged for his favour …" (Hosea 12:2-4)

Jacob in the Quran;

"Jacob each one We made righteous. And We made them leaders, guiding by Our Command, and We revealed to them the doing of good deeds, performing Salat (prayer), and the giving of Zakat (charity) and they were worshipers of Us (alone)." (Quran, 21:72,73)

"And remember Our slaves, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, owners of strength (in worshiping Us) and of religious understanding. Verily, We did choose them by granting them the remembrance of the Hereafter. And they are with Us, verily, of the chosen and the best." (Quran, 38:45-47)

The people who represent us say alot about our character because we are known by the company we keep. Nations send their best to be emissaries to other nations, so how much more wisdom would the Creator have when selecting those who would represent him?

I maintain that the Quran represents the power, majesty, and dignity of an all powerful Creator, whereas the Bible shows Him as imperfect.





Wandile

Con

I thank my opponent for his immediate reply to my earlier arguments. As we shall see my opponent makes some crucial errors within his arguments that introduce question upon his understanding of the bible.

1- MOSES CORRECTS GOD

Do the actions of a mortal decrease who God is?

My opponent states :

"Is it acceptable to approach an all powerful supreme being and remind it of a promise it made? This action alone would eliminate the one who is being reminded of being worthy of worship because it has displayed that it is not omnipotent , as it claims."

Definition of omnipotent :
Having unlimited power; all powerful

My opponents arguments amount to ; "Moses displayed unacceptable conduct, as a result God is not omnipotent and thus is not worthy of worship."

The fallacy of this argument is irreconcilable! It is inexplicable how my opponent came to the illogical conclusion that God in the bible is not omnipotent because of the actions of a mortal. Moses' "bad manners" are in no logical way, related to what God can do within his power (omnipotence). This is a terrible argument and is soundly refuted by the bible itself which teaches God's omnipotence :

"Ah Lord God! Behold, You have made the heavens and the earth by Your great power and outstretched arm. There is nothing hard for you." (Jeremiah 32:17)

"I know that you can do all things , no plan of yours can be thwarted." (Job 42:2)

2- JUSTIFYING SLAUGHTER

My opponent says :

"I fail to see where the children and women of the Amalekites were guilty of being hostile towards the children of Israel."

This is a case of subjective isolation. Subjective isolation is the act of isolating a single point and formulating and argument around it. And from this, formulating a conclusion.

The WHOLE nation of the Amalekites were wicked. The Amalekites knew very well who the God of Abraham was, yet they turned to foreign gods. This alone is worthy of their slaughter as the punishment of sin is death. The Amalekites not only participated in paganism but, as a WHOLE nation (women,children,men,slaves,nobles etc) hated the Israelites and supported the actions of their army. God's judgments were justified by the notion of ; "those who oppose Israel, oppose God" and hence are in line to feel His wrath.

My opponent ignores the fact that the Amalekites were an extremely wicked people. They were not only wicked spiritually (paganism) but were wicked in the flesh too (their unjustified warlike nature). Their armies actions were not the sole reason why God ordered their slaughter, but rather their wickedness in its entirety. My opponent is thus guilty of isolating an aspect of the Amalekites' wickedness and constructing an argument on this one particular aspect. However God did not order their slaughter based on this one premise, but rather took into consideration the entirety of the Amalekites' wickedness. Hence my opponent's whole argument proves futile due to subjective isolation, and presents a false portrayal of God's justified judgment upon the Amalekites.

3- GOD CANNOT SEE INTO THE FUTURE?

My opponent quotes Genesis 6:5-6 and incorrectly concludes that God cannot see into the future. He concludes this because of the false logic that if God could see the future, He would not have grieved when he saw the evils of man in Genesis 6:5-6 because he would have already known that theses very evils would take place.

Here is an everyday situation which falsifies the logic used :

Family members of a prisoner that is on death row, receive a notification of the date of execution of their relative quite some time before the day arrives. Yet despite their foreknowledge of the events to come,on the day of execution, the family still grieves.

According to the logic of my opponent, all the families that have been in this situation should not have grieved due to their foreknowledge of the future. This logic however is falsified by the fact that on countless occasions, the families do grieve on the day of execution.

His logic fails to take into to account the emotions of the family towards the prisoner. Their love for the prisoner is the reason they grieve.

In the same way God grieves Genesis 6:5-6, despite knowing the future, because of His love for man.

In fact the bible verily teaches that God knows the future :

"Your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book BEFORE one of them came to be." (Psalm 139:16)

"BEFORE a word is on my tongue, you KNOW it completely, O Lord." (Psalm 139:4)

For more on this topic ----� http://www.biblehelp.org...

4- DIFFERENCES BETWEEN GOD IN THE BIBLE AND QUR'AN

My opponent references Genesis 1:26 and concludes that ;

"Image is another word for reflection, so if I have a nose then the Creator has one, and so on. Does this sound like a being worthy of worship?"

Firstly, this is an argument from opinion. Simply because my opponent does not like the idea of God having a nose, he relegates God to not being worthy of worship. This is extremely opinionated and is not a valid argument.

Secondly my opponent displays his extreme lack of knowledge concerning christian theology in genesis 1:26

Many people like my opponent repeat the same mistake of thinking that man being made in the image of God (as in Gen 1:26) deals with the physical likeness of God, in the sense that God has a body of flesh and blood. This is completely erroneous. The bible explicitly teaches that God is spirit (John 4:14) and a spirit does not have flesh (Luke 24:39). Consequently Genesis 1:26 cannot be read literally as my opponent does as this will contradict John 4:14. And Luke 24:39.

So what does the bible mean when it says man was made in the image of God? It simply means that man is in the likeness of God, in that man attains some of the attributes that God has e.g. Just as God loves, man loves too; just as God is merciful, man too is merciful. Due to man being made in His image, man can reason,be compassionate,think deeply, grieve, be joyful, be holy, anger etc

For a more well-constructed explanation follow this link : http://www.carm.org...

The bible firmly teaches that no one is like God :

"No one is like You O' Lord, You are great and your name is mighty in power" (Jeremiah 10:6)

#FAITH OR WORKS

The bible teaches that man is justified by faith without the deeds of the Law. However the bible also strictly teaches that faith is not faith if it does not have works (charity). Hence the bible teaches BOTH faith and works because they are inseparable :

"Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works,
Is dead." (James 2:17)

#THE PROPHETS

First of all Lot is not a prophet in christianity but is seen as a righteous man.

Secondly this argument (argument of the prophets) is not applicable simply because Islam's and christianity's views on the state of prophets is contradictory. Christianity teaches that ALL men (including the prophets) are sinners but Islam believes the prophets were sinless. So my opponent trying to use the sins of the prophets as mentioned in the bible is not a valid way to asses God's wisdom in whom God chooses his representatives to be, simply because he could only choose from sinners (christian theology).
Christianity and Islam do not share common ground concerning the state of the prophets and thus a constructive argument cannot occur.

FYI the prophets in the bible were the finest men in their day despite their flaws (sins).

MY OFFENSE :

I just realized that the rules show that the BOP is on Pro. So as a result I do not need an offense. All I need to do is refute Pro's arguments and thus prove that the bible either equally or better represents God than in the Qur'an.

However I might include an offense in the later rounds if I so wish.

REFERENCES :

*http://www.pastoralmusings.com...

*http://www.netbiblestudy.net...

*http://www.kingmessiahproject.com...
Debate Round No. 3
Rasheed

Pro

I would like to again thank my worthy opponent for a timely rebuttal.

MOSES CORRECTS GOD RELOADED

My opponent places words in my mouth when he says;

"My opponents arguments amount to ; 'Moses displayed unacceptable conduct, as a result God is not omnipotent and thus is not worthy of worship.' "

This is what I actually said;

" The Christian Bible tells a curious story of Moses (may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) correcting his Maker.."

My opponent tries to frame the actions of Moses as "unacceptable," but this is not the view that the God of the Bible took because he corrected his behavior after being reminded of promises that he should have already known about. No, it is the entire story of Moses correcting his Creator that is unacceptable. When my opponent quotes other verses from the Bible he only shows that his source hopelessly contradicts itself, nothing more.

JUSTIFYING SLAUGHTER RELOADED

"Genocide begins, however improbably, in the conviction that classes of biological distinction indisputably sanction social and political
discrimination"

Andrea Dworkin

My opponent says;

" The WHOLE nation of the Amalekites were wicked. The Amalekites knew very well who the God of Abraham was, yet they turned to foreign gods. This alone is worthy of their slaughter as the punishment of sin is death."

When we examine this amazing statement we see several mistakes;

1. Children are not wicked, and could not have the mental maturity to worship anything.

2. Absolutes are illogical, so to make the statement that an entire group is wicked and worthy of wholesale extermination is the ultimate crime against humanity, and would make Hitler, Stalin, and all of the other madmen of the world very proud.

3. For a God to order the murder of innocents, including women and children would render him unqualified to be worshipped by any civilized people.

The God of the Bible orders crimes against humanity that would be considered war crimes if attributed to any world leader. Here are just a few more examples;

Just random killing
Exodus 35:2 ? "2 For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a Sabbath of rest to the LORD. Whoever does any work on it must be put to death."

Baby killing
Psalms 137:8-9 - "O Daughter of Babylon, doomed to destruction, happy is he who repays you for what you have done to us. he who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks."

Little kid killing
Hosea 13:16 - "The people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have rebelled against their God. They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open."

Nowhere in the Qur'an can you any reader find God ordering the killing of women and children. Here are the rules of war in the Quran;

"You may fight in the cause of GOD against those who attack you, but do not aggress. GOD does not love the aggressors. You may kill those who wage war against you, and you may evict them whence they evicted you. Oppression is worse than murder. Do not fight them at the Sacred Masjid, unless they attack you therein. If they attack you, you may kill them. This is the just retribution for those
disbelievers. If they refrain, then GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful. You may also fight them to eliminate oppression, and to worship GOD freely. If they refrain, you shall not aggress; aggression is
permitted only against the aggressors." Surah 2:190-193

"O you who believe, do not prohibit good things that are made lawful by GOD, and do not aggress; GOD dislikes the aggressors." Surah 5:87

"If they resort to peace, so shall you, and put your trust
in GOD. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient." Surah 8:61

"... if they leave you alone, refrain from fighting you,
and offer you peace, then GOD gives you no excuse to fight them." Surah 4:90

The Quran also reminds the submitters (muslims in Arabic) that they
should not be provoked by past animosity into committing acts of aggression (Surah 5:2).

Here are just a few more examples of the differences between the God of the Bible and Qur'an;

BIBLE: God said to Jesus, "You are my son today I have begotten you" Heb.5:5

God said to David, "You are my son today I have begotten you"Psalm2:7

QUR'AN: Proclaim, "He is the One and only GOD. "The Absolute GOD. "Never did
He beget. Nor was He begotten.
Quran 112:1

They said, "The Most Gracious has begotten a son"! You have uttered a
gross blasphemy. The heavens are about to shatter, the earth is about to tear
asunder, and the mountains are about to crumble. Because they claim that the
Most Gracious has begotten a son. It is not befitting the Most Gracious that He
should beget a son.Every single one in the heavens and the earth is a servant of
the Most Gracious. He has encompassed them, and has counted them one by one.All
of them will come before Him on the Day of Resurrection as individuals.
Quran 19:88-95

BIBLE: The Lord said, "I will break my covenant with them" [Levi. 26:44]

"You said O Lord: My covenant will I not break..
38 But you cast off and abhorred, you have been wroth with your
annointed. You have made void the covenant of your servant.
43 You have made all his enemies to rejoice, you have also turned the
edge of his sword, and have made him to stand in the battle
46 How long, Lord? will you HIDE yourself for ever?" Psalm 89

QUR'AN: "Such is GOD's promise - and GOD never breaks His promise - but most
people do not know." Quran 30:6

BIBLE: "And the Lord said, Go ye after him through the city, and
smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity: 9:6 Slay utterly old
[and] young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any
man upon whom [is] the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the
elderly men who [were] before the house. 9:7 And he said to them, Defile the house, and fill the courts with the slain: go ye forth. And they went forth, and slew in the city." Ezek. 9:5-7

QUR'AN: "GOD does not enjoin you from befriending those who do not fight you
because of religion, and do not evict you from your homes. You may befriend them
and be equitable towards them. GOD loves the equitable."(60:8)

"If they withdraw from you and fight you not, but (instead) send you (guarantees of)
peace, then God alloweth no way for you (to war against them)."
(4:90)

"If the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline
towards peace, and trust in God." (8:61)

In my conclusion I have shown that the representation of God in the Bible is undeserving of honor and worship because He is vain, jealous, bloodthirsty, and petty, while the representation of God in the Qur'an is that of a majestic, all powerful, just Creator. For this reason I ask that you vote pro.
Wandile

Con

I thank my honorable opponent for allowing me to participate in this debate. It truly has been a memorable debate, one which I will cherish. My opponent has presented his final arguments, but as we shall see he has made some crucial errors.

1- MOSES CORRECTS GOD RELOADED

My opponent has accused me of placing words into his mouth. He attempts to falsify my summary of his argument (from round 3) by quoting a statement that I was not summarizing. The statement is :

"The Christian Bible tells a curious story of Moses (may peace and blessings be upon him) correcting his Maker" (this was from round 2)

I in no way attempted to summarize this statement. I was not even referring to it. My summary was focused on this statement that he made last round (round 3) :

"Is it acceptable to approach an all powerful supreme being and remind it of a promise it made? This action alone would eliminate the one who is being reminded of being worthy of worship because it has displayed that it is not omnipotent, as it claims."

As evident , my opponent's above argument indeed amounts to ; "Moses displayed unacceptable conduct, as a result God is not omnipotent and thus not worthy of worship".

I already discussed the issue of this argument and will leave this to the reader to decide on the fate of my arguments.

My opponent proceeds to say :

"My opponent tries to frame the actions of Moses as unacceptable."

I, As a christian, do not believe the actions of Moses were unacceptable. I was summarizing my opponents evident displeasure with Moses' conduct as he says; "Is it acceptable...", hence he clearly does not favor Moses' actions, he clearly does not see them as acceptable (or else he would have not asked the rhetorical question). Thus, I used the word 'unacceptable' in my summary of my opponents arguments as that is the opposite of 'acceptable'.

My opponent continues to say :

"...but this is not the view that the God of the bible took because he corrected his behavior after being reminded of promises..."

God did NOT 'correct' His behavior. This is just a desperate and unsupported claim made to discredit God in the bible. God RELENTED from passing His judgment, or in other words, showed MERCY. I am completely baffled as to how my opponent, with such a straight forward narrative, concludes that God was 'corrected' in the passage. The passage clearly shows that God simply accepted a prayer of repentance. How is this ,in any stretch of the imagination, being corrected? My opponents argument is simply illogical.

My opponent also has a problem with the idea of Moses 'reminding' God of a promise. He incorrectly proceeds to form the false conclusion that God is not omniscient (all knowing) or omnipotent. My opponent's logic is once again flawed, as if he were to apply his logic to his religion, he would not pray to God. Why I say this is because God being all-knowing knows exactly what my opponent wants before he even begins to pray. As a result he would not pray because he would already conclude that God already knows what he wants. Yet, my opponent still prays 5 times a day! In the same way Moses , knowing very well that God has not forgotten, still proceeds to remind God in prayer of the promise that He made to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Moses does this for the same reason that my opponent still prays : It is mere formality!

The bible even teaches that God never forgets His promise that He made to the Patriarchs :

"For the LORD tour God is a merciful God, He will not abandon or destroy you or forget the covenant with your fathers, which he confirmed to them by oath." (Deuteronomy 4:31)

My opponent also says :

"When my opponent quotes other verses from the Bible he only shows that his source hopelessly contradicts itself..."

This is false! My biblical quotations only contradict my opponents dismally incorrect interpretations of the Deuteronomy passage, nothing more! They expose his false interpretation of the deuteronomy passage!

2- JUSTIFYING SLAUGHTER

Despite my very simple and straight forward explanation of God's judgments, I have noticed that my opponent is still having problems with my explanation of the reasons for the slaughter of the Amalekites. For this reason I will present an in depth theological explanation of the actions of God as well as how and why He judges the way He does :

What must first be established is that the God of the Bible is omniscient, which means he knows every action that has taken place and every action that will take place. One attribute of God's omniscience is the "Middle Knowledge" of God, which holds that God also knows all possible actions people would make in this world and any other world which God might have created.

The "Middle Knowledge" perspective means that God knows three types of things in His omniscience :

(1) All things that have actually been.
(2) All things that will actually be.
(3) All things that may have been in all possible worlds.

Middle knowledge is the 3rd of these knowledge types.
By this view, God knows before each individual was born, whether and under what circumstances that person would ultimately respond to His plan of salvation. Moreover God's knowledge is not dependent on age. God knows each of us in our mother's womb (Psalm 139:13, Isaiah 44:2). He does NOT need to wait for any individual to become old and die of old age to know whether that person will receive God's grace to cleanse their sins. God knows even before they are conceived what type of person the as-yet-unborn person will be and what they would ultimately do. Thus, God can cast judgment down on an infant just as easily as an on old man, since God knows infinitely and perfectly exactly what each of those people have done and will do in the course of their existences.

As a result, God pronounced the whole Amalekite nation as wicked through His infinite omniscience which includes Middle knowledge. God knew that these people would never turn from their evil ways. God knew very well that allowing some of the Amalekites to live would only result in them committing the same unrepented sins as well as attempt (once again) to inflict genocide upon the Israelites. Saul did what my opponent wanted God to do, which was to spare some of the 'innocent' Amalekites (women and children). God knew better. He knew through His infinite Middle Knowledge that these people weren't 'so innocent'. The ramifications of Saul's act proved God's judgment on the Amalekites as just, as the offspring of these spared Amalekites committed the same sins as their ancestors and ,once again, tried to exterminated the Israelites (Esther 3:7-15). As evident, God through His omniscience knew very well that this would happen if any Amalekites were spared. Hence God justly imposed the death sentence on all the Amalekites to prevent this and also so that the covenant made with the Patriarchs could be fulfilled!

For more info ----� http://www.christiancadre.org...

3- GOD IN THE BIBLE AND QUR'AN

My opponent attempts to accuse the biblical God of being a bloodthirsty tyrant. However ,as seen, I proved that His actions were justified and also that He hated casting such judgments upon His creation (Jeremiah 4:1-2).

However God in the Qur'an never shows any justification for ordering the slaughter and persecution of non-muslims. He orders muslims to mercilessly slay all infidels. He even brags about misleading people so that He can torture them in hell for sport :

"Do not bother warning the disbelievers. Allah has made it IMPOSSIBLE for them to believe so that he can torture them forever after they die." (Surah 2:6-7)

"And SLAY them wherever you may find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is WORSE than slaughter..." (Surah 2:191)
Persecution is worse than slaughter?????

"And fight then until persecution I'd no more and religion is for Allah" (Surah 2:193)

# We see God in the Qur'an teaches that warfare is prescribed for all Muslims. He also teaches that it is good for them :

"Warfare is ORDAINED for you, though it is hateful unto you; but it may happen that ye hate a thing which is GOOD FOR YOU... Allah knoweth, ye know not" (Surah 2:216)

# Initiating attacks is allowed by God in the Qur'an :

In fact there unconditional commands to fight all unbelievers everywhere and at any time :

"But when the forbidden months are past then FIGHT and SLAY the pagans wherever ye may find them and seize them, beleager them and lie in wait for them in every stratagem" (Surah 9:5)

# God in the Qur'an gives muslims permission to attack jews and christians (people of the book) without giving them any time to repent! :

"FIGHT those who disbelieve not in Allah nor the Last Day nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His apostle nor acknowledge the religion of truth [even if they are] of the people of the book until they pay Jizya with willing submission and feel themselves subdued." (Surah 9:29)

# God in the Qur'an orders the general duty of jihad to all muslims :

"Then FIGHT in the cause of Allah and know that Allah heareth and knoweth all things" (Surah 2:244)

"Those who believe FIGHT in the cause of Allah and those who reject faith fight in the cause of evil : so FIGHT ye against the friends of satan..." (Surah 4:76)

# God in the Qur'an orders muslims to strike terror in the hearts of the infidels :

"Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the unbelievers for that they joined companions with Allah for which He had sent no authority : their abode will be fire; and evil is the home of the wrong-doers !" (Surah 3:151)

"Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power including steeds of war to strike terror into the enemies of Allah and your enemies and others whom ye may not know but whom Allah doth know." (Surah 8:60)

Sheikh Abdullah bin Muhammad bin Hamid had this to say on violence in the Qur'an :

"So at first 'the fighting' was forbidden, then it was permitted and after made OBLIGATORY :
(1) Against those who star 'the fighting' against you (muslims)
(2) And against ALL those who worship others along with Allah."

# God in the Qur'an is also a deceiver :

I would not trust a God like this!

"But they (the jews) were deceptive , and Allah was DECEIVER, for Allah is THE BEST of deceivers" (Surah 3:54)

"Are they then secure from Allah's DECEPTION? None of them deemeth himself secure from Allah's scheme..." (Surah 7:99)

# God in the Qur'an purposely (for no good reason) leads people astray! :

"So Allah leads astray WHOM HE PLEASES and guides whom He pleases" (Surah 14:4)

God in the Qur'an calls muslims to kill these people who do not believe in Him, yet it was Him who lead them astray! Seem like God in the Qur'an is just killing for sport!

HOW IS GOD PRESENTED IN THE BIBLE ?

I already proved that God in the Bible is merciful as well as just. He hates casting judgments and only casts judgments when the people have reached the point of no return. He pleads for centuries with His people to turn back to Him, so that He does not have to judge them. Besides this, God is presented as other things in the Bible :

# God is love, nowhere in the entire Qur'an is God ever called love :

"Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love" (1 John 4:8)

# God is merciful :

I have already shown that God showed mercy on the Israelites by hearing Moses' prayer of repentance. Here are other verses :

"For the LORD your God is a merciful God, He will not abandon or destroy you or forget the covenant with your fathers, when He confirmed th them by oath." (Deuteronomy 4:31)

"Be merciful just as your Father (God) is merciful." (Luke 6:36)

# God in the Qur'an teaches hatred for enemies (Surah 8:60), while God in the bible teaches love for enemies :

"You have heard that it was said; 'love your neighbor and hate your enemy', but I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you." (Matthew 5:43-45)

# God in the Qur'an loves muslims and hates unbelievers (Surah 4:89). God in the bible loves the WHOLE world and not just jews and Christians :

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believe in him shall not perish but have eternal life." (John 3:16)

# God wished that the unbelievers return to Him so that he does not have to judge them :

"Therefore, O house of Israel, I will judge you, each one according to his ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and an new spirit. Why die, O house of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!" (Ezekiel 18:30-32)

# God in the Bible is a father to His creation :

"One God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all." (Ephesians 4:6)

As seen, all I had to do was prove that God in the Bible is represented equally or better than in the Qur'an to disprove my opponents positions. I have proven that God is represented incomparably better in the Bible as a merciful, just and loving Father who seeks the salvation of His creation.

PLEASE VOTE CON! PLEASE VOT CON! PLEASE VOTE CON!

References :

*http://www.studytoanswer.net...

*http://www.formermuslims.com...

*http://www.jmm.aaa.net.au...

*http://www.unveilingislam.org...

*http://www. faithfreedom.org/Quran.htm
Debate Round No. 4
5 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
Posted by Wandile 5 years ago
Wandile
There are many christians . I will not deny that. Like I said to Rasheed, such debates will always attract a christian audience because it is concerning their faith. However I think you are exaggerating the bias the christians have when voting. Its not like they just say, "oh here's a christian, let me vote for him simply because he's christian like me".

From their comments you can clearly see the RFD. Although I will not deny that being christian, there is no way to deny that the voters have some extent of a bias (that's only natural for anyone whether muslim, christian or atheist).
Posted by Mirza 5 years ago
Mirza
Wandile, In his debate against Renascor, only two Christians voted, and they are not known for votebombing or such similar things on theological debates.

If you're up against a somewhat active member who happens to be a Christian, as a Muslim your chances of winning votes are not the highest (atheists often remain neutral, but there are many Christians).
Posted by Wandile 5 years ago
Wandile
Not to take anything away from what you guys are saying but Rasheed has won against Renascor before.
Posted by Mirza 5 years ago
Mirza
Rasheed, This site is dominated by Christians and Atheists. As a Muslim you're not very likely to win if certain people read your debate. That's irregardless of how good your arguments are.
Posted by Rasheed 5 years ago
Rasheed
Could I please get some non Christian votes please!!!
3 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Vote Placed by Gileandos 5 years ago
Gileandos
RasheedWandileTied
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Total points awarded:06 
Reasons for voting decision: Conduct point to Wandile and against Rasheed for the denying Con's summary of point 2 which was clearly correct in round 4. Con had far more convincing arguments and Pro never met the burden of proof. Sources to Con for properly source siting and not taking sources out of context.
Vote Placed by Buckethead31594 5 years ago
Buckethead31594
RasheedWandileTied
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Total points awarded:15 
Reasons for voting decision: Con adequately refuted all of Pro's contentions. Regarding the contention of "resting;" Con did an excellent job addressing this. Arguments were impressive on Pro's part; Con refuted all of them. Pro hardly used any sources; however, he did fulfill the BoP sufficiently. Conduct points for him.
Vote Placed by logicrules 5 years ago
logicrules
RasheedWandileTied
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Reasons for voting decision: Pro fails to clarify "better". Pro's arguments are ALL fallacious on their face, involving the circular fallacy. Can falls into the trap "Does the creator rest?" Thus, taking Pro at his word, he failed to prove the assertion, he loses.