The Instigator
TheRealSpassky101
Pro (for)
The Contender
Joshua1
Con (against)

God is sexist.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 11/4/2016 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 weeks ago Status: Debating Period
Viewed: 252 times Debate No: 96715
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (11)
Votes (0)

 

TheRealSpassky101

Pro

Hello. The first round is acceptance.
Joshua1

Con

I accept this debate, and look forward to hearing your opening statement.
Debate Round No. 1
TheRealSpassky101

Pro

This is the definition of sexist.

1
: prejudice or discrimination based on sex; especially : discrimination against women
2
: behavior, conditions, or attitudes that foster stereotypes of social roles based on sex

These are some quotes in the Bible.
"I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent." (1 Timothy 2:12)
"Do not allow a sorceress to live." (Exodus 22:18) {Note the -ess}.

I am interested in your response; I have plenty of more verses.
Joshua1

Con

I apologize for the late response; I needed time to think about the issue and prepare an answer that is adequate to the nature and magnitude of the issue at hand. I am sensitive to the fact that this may be offensive to some, and so please understand that everything I say is said with the utmost grace and respect.

Before we begin, I would like to propose the following rules:
1.The last two rounds of debate are reserved for rebuttal (I.e. No new arguments, only used for addressing previously made arguments)
2.The Bible is the only source of evidence for the character of God. Since we are debating an issue that is faith-based by nature, and since you have brought the Bible as your evidence against God, I believe it is reasonable to limit credible evidence to that. History of the church, individual interpretations, etc. may not be used for evidence for/against God"s character.

I will respond on three points: first, I will contest the definition given. Second, I will respond to the claim that God is sexist as a whole with my own arguments, and last I will briefly address the verses given.

Response to definition:

I contend that the first part of the definition is a sufficient and helpful definition of sexist, but that the second part is an unhelpful definition on three points:

1.Precision: The definition used should be precise and clear, so as to narrow the field of qualifying actions. A vague and broad definition is unhelpful at best, and open to manipulation, subjective interpretation, and unfair usage. The first definition given is sufficiently clear as to be helpful in showing what is sexism, while the second is much too broad (including anything that "fosters" sexism in others) to be of any use in narrowing the field and allowing us to identify sexism with ease.
2.Line-Drawing: The definition should "draw a line in the sand", so to speak. It should clearly delineate what actions/statements denote sexism and what do not. That is, indeed, the purpose of giving a definition. While the first part does this well, the second does not, leaving a gray area where whether a behavior fosters sexism in others could potentially be in dispute, leading to unhelpful and distracting side debates that detract from the issue at hand.

On these points, I contend that the second part of the definition should be dropped from the debate, and only the first should be used in determining whether God is sexist or not. As this is the definition of the central issue of the debate, it is extremely necessary that we have as clear a definition as possible.

God"s view of the sexes:
To discern whether or not God is prejudiced against women, we must look at the culture"s view of women, and then see whether God upheld or countered the popular view.
Throughout biblical times, the popular view of culture was sexist, traditionally with the male being dominant. (https://gotquestions.org...)
There were certain places in the New Testament, however, where women were held to be superior, through goddess worship. This was in Ephesus primarily. (Acts 19:28: "And when they heard these saying, they were full of wrath, and cried out, saying, Great is Diana of the Ephesians.")

We will examine God"s view of women through his view through the Bible, his portrayal through Jesus, and the doctrine of the Gospel. Through this, it will become apparent that God views women not as inferior beings, but as equal to men in value and spiritual worth, with important differences that make a man and a woman function as a team.

Old Testament:
1.The first point I"d like to make comes through an examination of God"s creation of Eve. There were several important points here:
a.Eve was the last creation, the crown jewel.
b.She was, like Adam, a bearer of the image of God. (Genesis 1:27: ""in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.")
c.After the Fall, she was the one chosen to bring the Messiah, not the man. (Genesis 3:15: "I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.") Notice: it was a virgin birth; God didn't even NEED the man!
2.All through the Old Testament, there are examples of women in positions of heroism and respect, portrayed in a positive light: Esther, Ruth, and Deborah are examples. In addition, the line of Jesus Christ, the eventual Messiah and Savior, included 3 women, Tamar, Rahab, and Bathsheba (Matthew 1:1-16, Luke 3:23-38). This would have been very counter-culture, as the world, and Jews in particular, viewed women as far inferior to men. Even into the New Testament, where Mary was chosen to deliver Jesus through a virgin birth" God didn't need a man, but he also didn't need a woman. He still chose to use a woman. This shows that God valued women very highly.
3.Proverbs 31 heralds a woman who is seen as weaving, making, selling, buying, and many other tasks. This, again, would have been very counter-culture.

Jesus viewed women as equals, which is shown in multiple examples:
1.John 4 portrays the story of Jesus talking to a woman of Samaria at a well. This was very counter-culture, as evidenced by his disciple"s surprise in verse 27: "Just then his disciples came back. They marveled that he was talking with a woman""
2.In John 8, Jesus stood up to the Pharisees to show that the law goes deeper than just actions, and of all times he did it to defend a woman! This again, would have been against the culture, which viewed women as inferior and worthless.
3.Many of Jesus"s disciples were women (Luke 8:2-3), he taught to women (Luke 10:39), and when he was resurrected, women were the first people he showed himself to! (Luke 23:55-24:10)
4.On top of this, in the gospels, the women are the ones who believe that Jesus was resurrected, while the men didn't believe until they had seen. (Luke 24:11)
Overall, Jesus had an extremely counter-cultural view of women, and treated them in all instances as equals, and not ever as inferiors or objects to be used.

The Gospel: The Gospel views women as equal to men in salvation and duty.
1.The New Testament records women many times, sometimes only mentioning that they were saved (Acts 5:14), other times specifically mentioned and exalted along with men (Acts 18:26 - Priscilla taught, as well as Aquila; Romans 16:1-15 " Paul praises women along with men)
2.Galatians 3:28: "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus" " perhaps the most definitive verse in the Bible on this subject, in this one verse Paul shows us that women are viewed as completely equal to men in salvation. They are not inferior, but equals, and Jesus loved them the same and paid the same price for their sins, so he could bring them into heaven with him as part of his bride.
3.The portrayal of the church as Christ"s Bride " Jesus chose to portray the church as his bride-to-be, not as a male figure, but as a female. His beloved, his church, those he saved from death on the cross, when searching for a comparison on this world he can find none more beautiful, valuable, or beloved as a woman about to be married. This speaks volumes of God"s view of womankind.

In summary, when the entire view of the Bible is taken, God views women as equal to men in many ways, and condemns and counters cultural views that put men at the top of the valuation chain. He created them as equals, and he speaks in contradiction of those who claim otherwise.

In response to the verses brought up:
1. 1 Timothy 2:12: In response to this, I would bring up that Paul is here addressing his ultimate successor Timothy, whom he has mentored. He is instructing him, essentially, on how the church should be run, and specifically the church in Ephesus (1 Tim. 1:3: "As I urged you when I was going to Macedonia, remain at Ephesus so that you may charge certain persons not to teach any different doctrine"). And as mentioned earlier, Ephesus had been a site of worship of the goddess Diana. So women would naturally have been exalted. Paul wanted to make sure this didn't get out of hand. This is one possible explanation for the command.
Another is that he was teaching the principle of submission. Order and rank. God established an order at creation that put the woman in submission (lit. Under someone else's mission) to the man, and the man was in submission to God. Any military soldier knows that just because he's taking orders from the General does not mean he is inferior as a person. Order and rank are in place to prevent confusion, not because God views women as inferior. Without an authority structure, there is anarchy.
This is further evidenced by the fact that women are ONLY put in submission to their husbands and the church leadership (who the man is also in submission to), not just any man. Order and rank, not value and superiority. 1 Corinthians 14:33 says: "For God is not a God of confusion but of peace..."

2. Exodus 22:18: this is simply a matter of the sin itself, not women. Look at Leviticus 20:27: "A man or a woman who is a medium or a necromancer shall surely be put to death." God doesn't hate women, he hates witchcraft.

One could take either of these verses and say that God hates women using just that one verse, but we must take the Bible as a whole if we want to judge God's character. Remember my argument: to take just one verse and use it against God, one must first deal with the combined weight of the Old Testament's portrayal of women, Jesus's treatment of them, and the Gospel's view of their equality. The weight of the evidence is, at this point, securely on that side. God loves all of mankind, whether male or female, equally; enough to die for all of them.

I look forward to your response.
Debate Round No. 2
TheRealSpassky101

Pro

I will save my rebuttals for the next round, something a lot more effective than arguments.

However, for now, I will have to reside to more quotes from the Bible.

Genesis 2:20-23New International Version (NIV)

20 So the man gave names to all the livestock, the birds in the sky and all the wild animals.

But for Adam[a] no suitable helper was found. 21 So the Lord God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man"s ribs[b] and then closed up the place with flesh. 22 Then the Lord God made a woman from the rib[c] he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man.

23 The man said,

"This is now bone of my bones
and flesh of my flesh;
she shall be called "woman,"
for she was taken out of man."

-Genesis 2:20-23
(Man comes first, names woman as a possessive to man.)

1 The Lord spoke to Moses in the tent of meeting in the Desert of Sinai on the first day of the second month of the second year after the Israelites came out of Egypt. He said: 2 "Take a census of the whole Israelite community by their clans and families, listing every man by name, one by one.

-Numbers 1:1-2
(The national poll counted only males because females were property.)

15 "Count the Levites by their families and clans. Count every male a month old or more." 16 So Moses counted them, as he was commanded by the word of the Lord.

17 These were the names of the sons of Levi:

Gershon, Kohath and Merari.

18 These were the names of the Gershonite clans:

Libni and Shimei.

19 The Kohathite clans:

Amram, Izhar, Hebron and Uzziel.

20 The Merarite clans:

Mahli and Mushi.

These were the Levite clans, according to their families.

21 To Gershon belonged the clans of the Libnites and Shimeites; these were the Gershonite clans. 22 The number of all the males a month old or more who were counted was 7,500. 23 The Gershonite clans were to camp on the west, behind the tabernacle. 24 The leader of the families of the Gershonites was Eliasaph son of Lael. 25 At the tent of meeting the Gershonites were responsible for the care of the tabernacle and tent, its coverings, the curtain at the entrance to the tent of meeting, 26 the curtains of the courtyard, the curtain at the entrance to the courtyard surrounding the tabernacle and altar, and the ropes"and everything related to their use.

27 To Kohath belonged the clans of the Amramites, Izharites, Hebronites and Uzzielites; these were the Kohathite clans. 28 The number of all the males a month old or more was 8,600.

-Numbers 3:15-28
(Again, they only count the women.)

9 Then God said to Abraham, "As for you, you must keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you for the generations to come. 10 This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised. 11 You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you. 12 For the generations to come every male among you who is eight days old must be circumcised, including those born in your household or bought with money from a foreigner"those who are not your offspring. 13 Whether born in your household or bought with your money, they must be circumcised. My covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting covenant. 14 Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant."

-Genesis 17:9-14
(God's covenant only involves males.)

17 "Three times a year all the men are to appear before the Sovereign Lord.

-Exodus 23:17
(Only men.)

8 They made the bronze basin and its bronze stand from the mirrors of the women who served at the entrance to the tent of meeting.
Exodus 38:8
(Women had to stay outside like dogs.)

These are the regulations for the grain offering: Aaron"s sons are to bring it before the Lord, in front of the altar. 15 The priest is to take a handful of the finest flour and some olive oil, together with all the incense on the grain offering, and burn the memorial[a] portion on the altar as an aroma pleasing to the Lord. 16 Aaron and his sons shall eat the rest of it, but it is to be eaten without yeast in the sanctuary area; they are to eat it in the courtyard of the tent of meeting. 17 It must not be baked with yeast; I have given it as their share of the food offerings presented to me. Like the sin offering[b] and the guilt offering, it is most holy. 18 Any male descendant of Aaron may eat it. For all generations to come it is his perpetual share of the food offerings presented to the Lord. Whatever touches them will become holy.

-Leviticus 6:14-18
(Only men can be priests. That was a very controversial statement in history.)

If a priest"s daughter defiles herself by becoming a prostitute, she disgraces her father; she must be burned in the fire.

-Leviticus 21:9
(What about the sons?)

Pay close attention to these two verses:
---------------------------------------------------------------------
When human beings began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them, 2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of humans were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose.

-Genesis 6:1-2
(Only males were children of God.)
--------------------------------------------------------------------

I could go on, but I am tired of all these verses, I still have pages more to go.

However, I hope you find this sufficient to my argument. I look forward to your argument.
Joshua1

Con

Once again, thank you for your patience; This is a thought-provoking, serious topic, and I want to address it as such. Again, please take everything I say as if it were said with the utmost respect and grace. I will offer another line of reasoning against the topic of God is sexist, and then I will respond to your verses.
Note: All of my Bible verses will be KJV or ESV.

First, we must understand that God"s character can only be judged by his will. God"s will determines his character, and thus if we want to determine whether God is sexist, we must determine whether his will for mankind is sexist.

In my first round, I argued that God"s view of women throughout scripture, from the Old Testament through Jesus to the Gospel, is that women are equal to men. Now I will contend that God"s original and prevailing will is that man and woman be in perfect communion with one another, in perfect equality.

I will support my claim with 3 points:

1. Communion at Creation
I once again turn to creation because it is the only place in history where God looked at everything and called it good (Genesis 1:31). Thus, it is an ideal place to look when determining what God approves of and what his will is. His will for mankind is revealed in Genesis 1:27: "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them." Both man AND woman were necessary to bear the image of God; it was NOT just the man. This shows equality and perfect communion.

2. Hierarchy because of Sin
Genesis 3:16: "Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee." This statement came right after the Fall, when man brought sin into the world (Romans 5:12). Before sin, there was perfect communion - perfect equality. Now, there could no longer be communion, because of sin. Sin creates disorder (James 3:16: "For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there will be disorder and every vile practice."). He did this for 3 reasons:
-1. God is a God of order. (1 Corinthians 14:33)
-2. Sin creates disorder.
-3. Hierarchy restores order.
These last two points can be seen simply by examination of the military, government, or business. Where there is no hierarchy, no authority structure, there is chaos. God created hierarchy to prevent anarchy. So why did God put man on top? 2 reasons:
-1. Man created first (1 Timothy 2:13)
-2. Competing priorities: woman already had job of motherhood and childbearing. History has shown that when leadership is taken on, child-raising is put in second place. Thus, God gave to the husband the job of leading the family, and to the woman the job of raising the children.
NOTES:
Hierarchy is NOT God"s ultimate will for mankind; it was put in place for order.
Women are NOT subject to just any man; that would be treating them as inferior to males. They are subject only to their husbands (Ephesians 5:22); This creates order.
Husbands are not allowed to rule their wives with an iron fist; that would be sexist and male-superiority. Instead, God wills that men should love their wives "As Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;" they should love their wives to such a degree that they sacrifice their own lives for the sake of their wives. Self-sacrifice.

3. The Law because of Sin
Much of your arguments have come from the Law, God"s law to the Israelites, given in Exodus through Deuteronomy. However, the Law does not show us God"s will for mankind; it was put in place for two reasons: to create order and to drive men to the Gospel. Jesus shows us this point in Matthew 19:3-9 in the following scenario:
The pharisees come to Jesus with the question of whether divorce is lawful. Jesus responds by pointing them to Creation.
They pushed further. Why, then, did Moses allow them (through the Law) to divorce? Jesus responds with the purpose of the law: "Because of your hardness of heart Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so."
Thus, the Law is first of all given because of sin; and is not God"s will for mankind, or else Jesus would not have disagreed with the pharisees. God"s will is found in Creation.
Secondly, its purpose is to bring men to the Gospel. Galatians 3:24-25: "Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster." The Law"s ultimate purpose was to bring us to the Gospel by showing us our sin.

These three points show us that God"s will, which determines his character, can be judged neither by looking at hierarchy in the family nor by examining the Mosaic Law. God"s will is contained in three places: Creation, the Gospel, and the End. Let"s take a quick summary of each and its view of women:
-Creation: Genesis 1:27-28: "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. 28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth." Communion and equality, from bearing the image of God to their job and command.
-Gospel: Galatians 3:28: "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." Communion and equality.
-End: Mark 12:25: (Jesus speaking): "For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven." Communion and equality, even more so than could ever be on this imperfect earth.

And thus we see that the ultimate will of God, revealed through Creation, the Gospel, and the End, is communion and equality between male and female, and no distinction between the two. As one"s will is, so is the one, and thus God is not sexist in any degree. This is supported by my arguments in the previous round, which contend that even within the sinful, fallen earth upon which we live, God still views women as equal to men in value and worth. Any subjection is made for the purpose of order, which does not connote devaluation. Therefore, God is not sexist.

Response to verses:

Genesis 2:20-23 (Adam possessed Eve)
I believe I addressed this in my argument about Creation; Adam did not view Eve as his possession but as his equal. There is absolutely no way to draw, looking at the original Hebrew words for man and woman, any kind of distinction between the two other than sex. Ish and Ishshah simply mean "male individual" and "female individual". There is no distinction as to worth or value or possession. And remember, both of them bore the image of God.
(Information about Hebrew words from www.biblehub.com)

Numbers 1:1-2, 3:15-28, Exodus 23:17, 38:8, Leviticus 6:14-18, 21:9
Forgive me for lumping all of these passages into one response, but I would point out that these verses are all directly taken from the Mosaic Law, which I addressed in my third major point in this round. The Law is not God"s ultimate will, and so cannot be used to accuse God"s character. It must be kept in mind that the Law was given for the purpose of maintaining order and showing God"s disdain for sin in order to drive men to the Cross. There are a couple of verses that warrant individual treatment, however. Where only the men were numbered, it was for the purpose of counting how many potential soldiers there were. And as to your claim that men were not punished for prostitution, that is simply not true. Read Leviticus 18 and 20:10-20. God clearly condemns sexual immorality, for both sexes.

Genesis 17:9-14 (God"s covenant with Abraham)
I respond to this on 3 points:
-1. God also made a covenant with Sarah (verses 15-16 read: And God said to Abraham, "As for Sarai your wife, you shall not call her name Sarai, but Sarah shall be her name. 16 I will bless her, and moreover, I will give you a son by her. I will bless her, and she shall become nations; kings of peoples shall come from her." God clearly was not sexist with his covenant.
-2. God also made a covenant with Hagar, who was technically property under that culture"s view. This shows he viewed and honored her as he would a man. (Genesis 16:10: "The angel of the Lord also said to her, "I will surely multiply your offspring so that they cannot be numbered for the multitude.")
-3. Circumcision was simply the sign that the man was under the covenant. What was the woman"s sign, then? Childbearing! God caused Sarah to have a son, and that was the sign that she was under the covenant. Throughout Old Testament history, God used miraculous ways to cause women to have children that showed that they were part of the covenant.

Genesis 6:1-2:
This is actually one of the most confusing verses in the Bible. There are a couple of interpretations of these verses:
-1. The children of God are angels, and the daughters of men are human women.
-2. The children of God are the righteous line of Seth, and the daughters of men are the immoral, sinful line of Cain.
What it most certainly does not mean, however, is that God only viewed men as his children. This would contradict the weight of the evidence as it now stands, and his revealed will towards mankind.

God is not sexist. This is a claim that could perhaps be levied against certain of his servants, human as they were, and could certainly be directed at the cultures and peoples he speaks to, but the firm weight of scripture is dead-set against any such accusation towards God. He loves all men and women the same, and he is, as stated in 2 Peter 3:9, "not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."
Debate Round No. 3
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Debate Round No. 4
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Debate Round No. 5
11 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Joshua1 4 weeks ago
Joshua1
Thank you; I look forward to the rest of the debate.
Posted by TheRealSpassky101 1 month ago
TheRealSpassky101
That was a very well spoken argument. I have never seen anyone make that well of a rebuttal. You definitely won the first round.

Also, I agree with your proposed rules and I find no qualms in said rules. All of my evidence comes from the Bible.
Posted by Joshua1 1 month ago
Joshua1
I apologize for the formatting of my argument... I typed it out on Microsoft Word, and it looked much better there. :/
Posted by Joshua1 1 month ago
Joshua1
Oops, I forgot to edit that I only had TWO points under the definition part... Oh well. :)
Posted by Joshua1 1 month ago
Joshua1
Although I appreciate the help, it's fine. :) He didn't give himself an unfair advantage, I accepted his terms. However, it is important to note that he did not prohibit me from disputing his definitions. It will be a fair debate... It's a common practice to define the terms in the first argument of a debate.
Posted by Robkwoods 1 month ago
Robkwoods
You have given yourself at an unfair advantage by not defining the terms. If I ask you for $100 dollars and you ask for what and I say don't worry about and I use it to pay your wife/gf to have sex with me, you probably won't be happy about that. If I told you that was my intention from the start you probably wouldn't give me the $100.
Posted by n7 1 month ago
n7
You don't think it's important to define your terms before the debate? Also you need to define God.
Posted by TheRealSpassky101 1 month ago
TheRealSpassky101
The first round is acceptance, therefore I have no need for the definition of sexist yet.
Posted by Robkwoods 1 month ago
Robkwoods
Definitely need a definition of sexist.
Posted by Phenenas 1 month ago
Phenenas
Stop, you're triggering the insane young-earth evangelists that make up about 95% of this site's population.
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