The Instigator
Illegalcombatant
Pro (for)
Winning
5 Points
The Contender
TheSound1
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points

God is temporal (that is to say God exists in time) Part 2

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
Illegalcombatant
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/28/2010 Category: Religion
Updated: 6 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,926 times Debate No: 14169
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (4)
Votes (2)

 

Illegalcombatant

Pro

Many God believers , claim that God exists "outside/beyond" time only, I will be arguing that God exists in time

Definition of God - Its existence is uncaused, morally good, all powerful, all knowing, personal, the prime/first mover

* Please note, I am looking for a debate on Gods relation to time, not a debate on whether God exists or not, there fore Gods existence is assumed to be true by both sides

If you don't want to assume Gods existences as true, but still want to debate Gods relation to time I am open to suggestions

My Opening Argument..............

Causation happens within a temporal context. For instance, some ones parents are the cause of their birth, and the cause "the parents" exist before the effect "the birth"

Even where the cause happens at the same as the effect, there is still a temporal relation between the cause and effect. (They happen at the same "time")

Most Classical theists would adhere to the view that God is the cause or the universe.

For clarification, I would add, that absent the universe God is timeless, but in the context of creation, God is the cause of something, and thus temporal relations are established, God being the cause, the universe/creation being the effect.

My argument is as follows

1) Where their is cause/effect there is a temporal relation between the two
2) God caused the Universe
3) There fore God (as the cause) has temporal relations with the effect (the universe)
4) There fore God exists in time

Unto my second argument........

In order for something to exist, it must exist in the present, for instance what if I claimed that Hitler exists ? I would be wrong as Hitler does not exist in the present, at least not in my present. The reason I say at least not in my present is to allow for Einsteinian time relativity where there is no absolute time reference. Even allowing for this, at least in my present(time reference) Hitler does not exist.

In order for something to exist, it must exist in that time reference point being referred too. There is no time reference point where God does NOT exist.

There fore my 2nd argument is as follows

1) God exists in the present
2) To exist in the present is to exist in a time reference
3) Only temporal things can exist in time references
4) Therefore God is temporal

I look forward to Cons response...........
TheSound1

Con

To exist outside of time has an implication. If you existed outside of time, it would mean that there are no 'frames' of you that change snapshot-by-snapshot. If you are not part of time, and changing, viewing it from within, then you are outside of time viewing everything from the outside.

"I the LORD do not change."
Malachi 3:6

Without change-over-time, any eternal being is immutable. There are no frames, no changes over time. In other words: No progress, no retreat, no changes of mind, no learning, no psychology, no changing of emotions and no active thought. A being outside of time exists as one instant, one snapshot only (like our 2D painting in a 3D world; constant). Emotions, thought, planning, progress and all those other things require change over time. Knowledge, also, would be absolute.

Nothing new could be learned because everything that is real and true exists in the 4D object that the being outside-of-time sees all at once. A creator-god who created the universe would exist in a very strange state. This being would exist, forever, viewing the universe that it created as a single 4D object that itself doesn't change over time. All of reality, everything, is 'there', not 'happening' now, but merely existing in reality. Nothing in the world could ever surprise an eternal creator, just like the stickman will never do anything that the child hasn't already seen.

This explanation, going through all the dimensions, truly gives an idea of how a being could indeed be all-knowing about everything that goes on in the universe, but such a being lives in a sad state of eternal immutability. This ties in with one other commonly-cited feature of God: its perfection. If a being is perfect, it cannot change. God's all-knowing nature, the eternality of its existence outside of time, its status as an outside creator of the universe and finally its status as a perfect being, each predict that God is unchanging.
Debate Round No. 1
Illegalcombatant

Pro

I thank Con for accepting the debate.

A few brief points then Ill go into the more substance of the argument.....

Con is arguing that God does not change as some sort of meta physical and physcial absolute rule.

I would object to this for instance, If we accept that God sustains the universe in any way, then God is actively doing something. But could God sustain the universe where the universe did not exist ? Of course not.

So God has gone from NOT sustaining the universe (absent the universe) to sustaining the universe. This is clearly an internal change in God, and with change is linked to time, and thus Gods temporal relations with the universe as creator and sustainer.

Con spent most of his argument explaining on what it means to be unchanging. But where is the refutation of my argument ?

Con says "This being would exist, forever, viewing the universe that it created as a single 4D object that itself doesn't change over time."

This theory of space-time being perceived as a single object refutes my argument how exactly ?

I would also remind Con that I did argue for God existing in 2 different contexts

1) Absent the universe (A timeless state)
2) God existing along with the universe (Gods having temporal relations)

Lets go through my first argument.....

1) Where their is cause/effect there is a temporal relation between the two (Con did not object to this)
2) God caused the Universe (Con did not object to this)
3) There fore God (as the cause) has temporal relations with the effect (the universe)........ (This premise flows through from 1 & 2)
4) There fore God exists in time

Con has show no flaw in my reasoning, I would ask Con to show me where the flaw is in this argument.

Unto the 2nd argument.......

1) God exists in the present
2) To exist in the present is to exist in a time reference
3) Only temporal things can exist in time references
4) Therefore God is temporal

Once again, I don't see any refutation of this argument. For clarification I would ask Con, do you deny that God exists in the present ? Do you deny that their is any point in space-time that God does not exist ?

My argument stands.

I look forward to Cons response.
TheSound1

Con

TheSound1 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 2
Illegalcombatant

Pro

............burp................
TheSound1

Con

TheSound1 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
Illegalcombatant

Pro

Vote early, vote often
TheSound1

Con

TheSound1 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
Illegalcombatant

Pro

What else is there to say, Vote Pro.
TheSound1

Con

TheSound1 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 5
4 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Posted by sonikiza 6 years ago
sonikiza
your correct about god's existence and I agree with you on that but answer e this question are you a Muslim or?
Posted by Illegalcombatant 6 years ago
Illegalcombatant
My idea of something being temporal, is something having temporal relations with other things (past,present,future) X happens before Y is a temporal relationship.

"how would you use to describe the opposite of temporal? "

The opposite of having temporal relations would not to have temporal relations, (timeless)

" What is the theological significance of God being temporal or not?"

The significance is Gods relationship to the creation, in this case, Gods temporal relations to the creation.

It would also allow for Gods interaction with something temporal (the universe), as only the temporal can interact with the temporal.

Obviously I have argued that God does indeed have a temporal relation, based on the link between causation and time.
Posted by unlockable 6 years ago
unlockable
How do you define temporal, and how would you use to describe the opposite of temporal? I believe that God is infinite, and therefore not temporal in a limiting sense, but I also believe that God interacts with people across time and space, and so it's not unreasonable for people to call God "temporal." What is the theological significance of God being temporal or not?
Posted by vardas0antras 6 years ago
vardas0antras
BTW, Good luck to Pro and Con, I hope this debate will become an interesting watch for me.
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by Cliff.Stamp 6 years ago
Cliff.Stamp
IllegalcombatantTheSound1Tied
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Vote Placed by Chrysippus 6 years ago
Chrysippus
IllegalcombatantTheSound1Tied
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Total points awarded:10