The Instigator
zach12
Pro (for)
Losing
34 Points
The Contender
JP
Con (against)
Winning
109 Points

God is worse than Hitler

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 3/4/2009 Category: Religion
Updated: 5 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 5,919 times Debate No: 7236
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (81)
Votes (23)

 

zach12

Pro

Full Resolution:

The Christian God as seen through the Bible is, in character, more evil or characteristically wrong than Adolf Hitler.

The main reason I say this:

Hitler caused the deaths of about ten million people

"God" has caused the deaths of uncountable amounts of people and other living things during the Great Flood, the plagues and killing of the firstborn in Egypt and many others
JP

Con

So, just to clarify, if you're basing your argument off of biblical events then the Bible has to be considered a reliable source.

You're argument is that God is worse than Hitler because He has caused the deaths of "uncountable amounts of people," and you site the stories of the flood and the plagues of Egypt as examples.

Well, I'll start at the beginning. The bible says in the beginning God created the Heaven and the earth. This means that everything is his and is under his rule. He created people in the first place, therefore, everything belongs to him and He has the right to do whatever He wants. He could, but He doesn't. The Bible says,"He is the Rock, his works are perfect, and all his ways are just. A faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is he." It says right here That god is "upright and just." This verse alone disproves the opening statement.

I will list a few verses that talk about the flood: "Now the Lord observed the extent of the people's wickedness, and He saw that all their thoughts were consistently and totally evil (Genesis 6:5)." Humans cannot argue Gods actions, sometimes what God does is above our understanding, but it this case, the Bible pretty much spells it out for us. God created the people on the earth, and they were completely evil. They were against everything God stood for and created them to be. God decided to kill them, and justifiably so. The people were totally evil, God knew that none of them would turn to him, therefore, they could not achieve their purpose, and if they can't achieve their purpose then there is no reason for them to be around. Nothing good could've come from them being on the earth.

In Genesis 17:1-8 God makes a covenant with Abraham saying that He will bless and multiply his descendants and they will be his people. Abraham's descendants are the Israelites. Many years after the covenant was made, they were enslaved by the Egyptians. The Egyptians treated them horribly. Genesis 2:23-24 says " years passed, and the king of Egypt died. But the Israelites still groaned beneath their burden of slavery. They cried out for help and their pleas of deliverance rose up to God. God remembers his promise to the Israelites, so he sends Moses to tell Pharaoh to let Gods people go. Pharaoh just mocks them and makes the work load on the Israelites harder. God sends Moses back again, and again Pharaoh didn't listen. So, God did something about it. God sent warning plagues to try to convince Pharaoh to let his people go. Pharaoh still refused to do so. So, God sent the death angel as the final plague. this was sufficient and Pharaoh let them go.

I could go on forever about verses declaring the goodness of God, but Ill leave you with this: The Gospels( first four books of the New Testament) give us the account of how God sent his only son to die for us. God is perfect and he can't be around sin. The only way for sins to be forgiven is if a sacrifice is made to God. God sent his only son to be that sacrifice. Jesus took on everyone's sins and the wrath of God so that we would be able to spend eternity with God. This shows God's love for us. He gave up his son for us. I can't see Hitler doing that for anyone.
Debate Round No. 1
zach12

Pro

I thank JP for posting his rebuttal

My opponent is saying that if you create something, then you have every right to do anything you want to it, including killing it, and yet you remain morally just and good. I do not understand this. Why does God tell humans not to kill their children? The children were made by the parents and thus we reach a contradiction.

When I posted the resolution I said "Christian God as seen through the bible." This meant his actions, not the definition. I could write a book saying "The Invisible Pink Unicorn is undeniably good and just no matter what it does. Then I could have this Invisible Pink Unicorn destroy a town, practice infanticide, abort, water board, and cut legs off people who don't believe in him. Does that make the Invisible Pink Unicorn good? No.

>>> Humans cannot argue Gods actions <<<

Isn't that what you're doing right now?

Why did God make man evil and wicked in the first place? I thought he was the unquestionable genius behind everything. Why did he make a mistake?

Then God destroys the people because he knew "They wouldn't turn to him."
This is egotistical and just proves my point. He is morally wrong. He is saying that we can kill anything that does not believe in us or our beliefs. So does that mean I can kill my kids, or my neighbor, if they don't believe I built a sand castle?

Hitler saw jews as evil and that they had no purpose. He showed Germany that they were a drain on society. In fact, I think the whole holocaust and WW2 were more the German people's fault than Hitler's. There have been many crazy mad men in history but they don't get into leadership positions. It's the people's faults.

>>> and if they can't achieve their purpose then there is no reason for them to be around. <<<

What was their purpose? To make God feel good? It seems very wrong of God to be so concerned with our thoughts of him. Is he so fragile in his personality he needs constant praise and adoration?

God's actions concerning the Israelites and pharaoh are an even better display of God's skewed system of morality.

God is being racist here. He chose one race over another. Later in the bible he says he loves all men equally. This is another contradiction and therefore a lie on God's account. And in being racist he gets violent. He breaks his own commandments and kills. This is a "do as I say not as I do" situation.

Then God sends his only son to die for us. Why his son? God has someone else do it. He always does. He has Jesus do all the hard work instead of him.

God is a selfish, hypocritical, violent, corrupted being and does things far worse than what Hitler did. Moreover he created Hitler, knowing full-well what his character was and what he was capable of doing.
Thanks for reading, vote pro
JP

Con

Thanks for the rebuttle

Ok, I'll start with your last argument, the one about God "sending Jesus to do the dirty work". I think you should reconsider that one. I don't think you have kids, but I have to think that, if you did, you would die ten times before you had to stand by and watch them die. I know I would, and I know God would. I guarantee God would feel just as bad as you would if you had to watch your child be killed right in front of your eyes, probably worse.
Now you might say "exactly, God could have done it himself, but he chose Jesus." If that's what you said then you would be mistaken. That's just not how it works. The trinity is pretty complex. Jesus is God, but he's different from God the Father. God the Father couldn't come down and be the sacrifice to himself. It just doesn't work like that. He did however make a decision much harder than that. He decide to send his son to die. His son was willing, but God made the bigger sacrifice. He sent his son to save people that hated and mocked him. That really shows something about his character, and you can't argue that.

The next thing I'll talk about is your statement "Why did God make man evil and wicked in the first place? I thought he was the unquestionable genius behind everything. Why did he make a mistake?" Well the answer to your question is that he didn't make man evil, and He never makes mistakes. When God made man, He made them perfect and placed them in the Garden of Eden. God gave man free will. This means that they weren't robots controlled by him but that he would allow them to choose to love him, obey him, and trust him. Now, there were many fruit trees in the garden, and everything was perfect except for one tree that God told them not to eat from. Adam and Eve stayed in the garden for a long time and everything was perfect. Then one day they ate from the tree. They chose to disobey God and that was the first evil done in the world. God was forced to send them away from the Garden and his relationship was changed with man from that point on (Because He can't be around sin).
Obviously God didn't force them to do that. He didn't create evil. He knew it was going to happen, but he still wanted to create humans, so he did. That's why he would later have to send his son to die for us. It's a lose lose for God. But He still did it.

I'll move on to the statement "My opponent is saying that if you create something, then you have every right to do anything you want to it, including killing it, and yet you remain morally just and good. I do not understand this. Why does God tell humans not to kill their children? The children were made by the parents and thus we reach a contradiction." That's not true. First of all, the parents didn't create the children. The children were born through a natural process of nature. God created the world in the beginning and set the natural processes that we see today into motion. So the parents did not create the child.
The next thing and the thing that I think is the biggest disconnect for you is this: Who decides morals? I know that mine will probably differ from yours slightly. There are things that people just know are wrong. Murder for instance. People just know that's wrong, there's no arguing it. But what about killing animals? Many people would say that it is wrong to kill animals, even for meat. Our morals would differ there. So who's right? I mean I think you could use common sense, but there is still a hazy zone in some areas. So, no human has perfect morals. God has perfect morals. He decides. Why? He created everything and has always been. You see, you can't even compare God to humans. God is all powerful, as stated by the Bible. God can see the future and therefore knows the scenarios of every situation possible. This allows him to make every decision perfectly. As humans, we don't have this ability. That is why God gave us the Bible. See some decisions can't be left up to humans because of their limited knowledge. God allows us to make some desicions but there are a few things that he gives us in the Bible to follow for our own good

God doesn't just kill for no reason. The Egyptians were an evil people. God made the perfect decision in that scenario. He doesn't like to kill people, I promise you. But He does in some cases when it results in the best case scenario. We can't know what would've happened if God hadn't done what he did. That's why it's not up to us.

Lastly, the fact is, that God created the world. The bible states as a fact, that if you don't believe in Christ, then you will go to hell. That' the way God made it. God can't be around sin. God loves everyone, but if they don't choose to accept his sacrifice for them, then they can't go to Heaven. It doesn't matter what we think, because we didn't create the whole uni God gives us every chance in the world to turn to him. He isn't asking anyone to do anything impossible, all he asks is that we accept his sacrifice. If we don't then we have to go to hell. If we do accept his sacrifice, then we will live with him in heaven forever.

Thanks
Debate Round No. 2
zach12

Pro

Thanks for the passionate response.

I will begin with your statement that >>> God doesn't just kill for no reason. The Egyptians were an evil people. God made the perfect decision in that scenario. He doesn't like to kill people, I promise you. But He does in some cases when it results in the best case scenario. We can't know what would've happened if God hadn't done what he did. That's why it's not up to us. <<<

I can easily argue that the Egyptians were not an evil people. They contributed a lot to modern life. They discovered papyrus (an early form of paper). They invented hieroglyphics and made advances in astronomy to be able to point their pyramids towards the sun. During the supposed time of the Hebrew's exodus from Egypt their economy was already faltering. Floods of the Nile had ruined crops and the Egyptians couldn't afford to release the very center stone of their economy. Monarchies always rely on slaves or serfs to supply income especially totalitarian monarchies, which Egypt certainly was. (Constitutional monarchies tax nobles, providing extra revenue which totalitarians don't have. However, they face uprising from the Nobles or a loss of control due to the constitution.)

How could God expect them to do this? It would condemn all Egyptians to die.

Also, God's "absolutely right" system of morals is too rigid. One instance of murder is by no means the same as another. As God has shown, it is entirely permissible to kill as many people as you wish as long as they meet the prerequisite of being "evil."

My opponent's last paragraph dooms his case.

>>> Lastly, the fact is, that God created the world. The bible states as a fact, that if you don't believe in Christ, then you will go to hell. That' the way God made it. God can't be around sin. God loves everyone, but if they don't choose to accept his sacrifice for them, then they can't go to Heaven. It doesn't matter what we think, because we didn't create the whole uni God gives us every chance in the world to turn to him. He isn't asking anyone to do anything impossible, all he asks is that we accept his sacrifice. If we don't then we have to go to hell. If we do accept his sacrifice, then we will live with him in heaven forever. <<<

This may be an easy thing for Americans to do, but think about others. There are many religions saying you must believe in them or else. That's another problem with God, a pure true ruler or message shouldn't carry a threat. Christianity survives by scaring people into joining for fear of Hell. Why couldn't God make a separate paradise, away from him so that he wouldn't feel sin but close enough to be amazing? Why does he instantly have to switch from paradise to Hell?

Now back to my point about non-Americans. Let's say you're a child living in the deeply Islam Middle East. Your whole life you are told that anything to do with the West is evil. (You should see some of their propaganda, and videos of kindergarteners talking about bombing the U.S. and Israel.) Becoming a Christian or Jew is a death sentence. You can't accept God's word without being either expelled from the country or killed. Getting out of the Middle East is also not an option for almost everybody so when my opponent says " He isn't asking anyone to do anything impossible" we know this is not the case.

Then my opponent tries to justify God's "sacrifice." I think the reason Jesus died violently on the cross is mainly his fault. If God had chosen a better time for a savior to be introduced, he would just have to look at Muhammad. With God's "infinite knowledge" and ability to apparently see the future, couldn't he have foreseen a better time in which his message would have been just as effective and Jesus would have survived? I think God just did it to shock his followers.

Then my opponent talks about free will and the Garden of Eden. I have a lot of arguments I could use to disprove free will. God made human nature and human nature is self-preservation. Incidentally, most instances of a human following this nature is a "sin." Couldn't God have made us have a better overall nature and still give us free will, only without the temptations of following our human nature?

I don't think there is any set of morals. Murder isn't usually right but it CAN be. As we can see in a couple of debates concerning this like:
http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...

If killing one person can sometimes be right, it once again shows that God's system is too strict. He would rather a lot of people died instead of one person.

Then my opponent goes on to say that human beings can't create anything. What happened to free will? Now the children aren't their children, they are creations of God that have nothing to do with the parents.

that's all for now, vote pro.
JP

Con

Thank you for your response

You said ["I can easily argue that the Egyptians were not an evil people. They contributed a lot to modern life. They discovered papyrus (an early form of paper). They invented hieroglyphics and made advances in astronomy to be able to point their pyramids towards the sun."] So what? These things are important but have nothing to do with morals. I mean, what if Hitler had invented the telephone? Would you think any better of him? This of course would not excuse his actions. It has nothing to do with his morals.

The next thing you talk about is Egypt's economic status. You said ["Floods of the Nile had ruined crops and the Egyptians couldn't afford to release the very center stone of their economy."] You then went on to say ["How could God expect them to do this? It would condemn all Egyptians to die."] Obviously not. Egypt is still around today.
Also, America is in an economic recession. Can you imagine if we used slaves to try to fix it. There would be an outrage. Why? because it's so wrong. The economic state of their country gives them no right to have slaves. Also, they didn't just enslave the Israelites, They severely mistreated them. So, this can't be used as an excuse.

The Egyptians were evil. Just look at how they treated the Jews. No advances in science can make up for that. Even then, God still tried to save them. Throughout the story of the plagues God says to moses, "do these things so the Egyptians will know that I am God." Even during the plagues we see God still trying to save them.

I'll move on to this, You said "My opponent's last paragraph dooms his case." Well I must admit, when I read that I was a little worried that I might have said something that was unclear or misstated that you could exploit. I was pleased to discover that this was not the case.

You had this to say about a paragraph in my previous argument that you thought "doomed my case". ["This may be an easy thing for Americans to do, but think about others. There are many religions saying you must believe in them or else. That's another problem with God, a pure true ruler or message shouldn't carry a threat. Christianity survives by scaring people into joining for fear of Hell. Why couldn't God make a separate paradise, away from him so that he wouldn't feel sin but close enough to be amazing? Why does he instantly have to switch from paradise to Hell?"]
Well, this could be explained by something the Bible says about hell, II Th. 1:9 is speaking about hell when it says, "shut out from the presence of the Lord." Hell is described simply as the absence of God. After people have lived their life, their time is up and their opportunity to accept Christ is gone. God can't leave people on earth forever until they accept him, it's not reasonable. Therefore if their sins are not forgiven, they are sent away from God to hell, where there is no presence of God. God didn't necessarily make hell to be torture, he just removes himself from their life, and the result is hell.

Romans 1:20"For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse." God isn't asking anyone to do anything impossible, He's asking us to acknowledge our sin and ask forgiveness.

Now, I think there is a misunderstanding about the death of Christ. You said " I think the reason Jesus died violently on the cross is mainly his fault. If God had chosen a better time for a savior to be introduced, he would just have to look at Muhammad. With God's "infinite knowledge" and ability to apparently see the future, couldn't he have foreseen a better time in which his message would have been just as effective and Jesus would have survived? I think God just did it to shock his followers." The whole point of Jesus coming to earth was to die. He always knew he was going to die, hence the word sacrifice. Jesus had to die to take the punishment for our sins.

Also, the Bible's objective isn't to scare people into becoming a Christian, it's a message of hope. I've never gotten the impression that God is trying to scare people into becoming a Christian. I don't know how you could get that message. When you read the Bible it tells you that, yes, everyone has sinned, and no one can come to heaven while they are still sinners. But the ultimate message is that Jesus died for your sins. This is what is so great, God is giving us another chance. No matter what you've done, it's never too late. God is always willing to forgive if you just ask. Then you will spend eternity in heaven with him.

I would next like to respond to what my opponent has this to say about my comment on free will in the garden. ["I have a lot of arguments I could use to disprove free will. God made human nature and human nature is self-preservation. Incidentally, most instances of a human following this nature is a "sin." Couldn't God have made us have a better overall nature and still give us free will, only without the temptations of following our human nature?']
Well, the anser to your questionis that God made us perfect in the beginning. Sin has changed us. Also it's ridiculous to blame God for our faults. If you know what's right then do it. Same goes if you know something is wrong. Don't blame God and say it's his fault for making you the way you are. If you know something is wrong you should have the discipline not to do it. Now, no one is perfect, god knows this.That's why he sent Jesus. But you still can't blame God for your mistakes.

My opponent says this in response to my comment that when babies are born they aren't necessarily created by their parents["What happened to free will? Now the children aren't their children, they are creations of God that have nothing to do with the parents."] Well all I'm saying is that the humans don't actually create it. Yes, the humans decide when to have it, what to name it, and how to raise it. But the actual birth of the baby is not a human creation, babies are developed through a natural process.

In conclusion, God and Hitler are copletely different. Hitler killed out of hatred. There was nothing to justify what Hitler did. God killed people in Biblical times, but it was for good reason. What God did was just and right. God loves people. God loves you, whoever you might be. God proved his love for us by sending his own son to die. Hitler was a man of hopeless, pure, evil. God on the other hand Gives everyone hope for eternal life through Christ.
Debate Round No. 3
81 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 11 through 20 records.
Posted by abard124 5 years ago
abard124
What about this:
According to the Christian bible, God chose the Christians, or at the very least, the theists. to go to heaven.
According to any historian I've ever met, Hitler chose the tall blond-haired, blue-eyed, Christians. But, he has no choice in their eternity, if there is one.
And, Hitler was over about 5 years, while "God" was over millions.
I don't really believe in God, but it's all the indoctrination Mumbo-Jumbo that messed up Zach. You never had a chance from the start, but you definitely made the more intelligent arguments. And, I agree. You get my votes.
Posted by Dofusman 5 years ago
Dofusman
and apparently, hitler killed billions and took them to heaven. He then came to heaven AFTER those he killed, like a true gentleman - letting others go before going himself.
Posted by tough1172 5 years ago
tough1172
God doesn't take innocent lives. he only took the lives of people that were excessively evil. like when he flooded the earth. as for the 1st borns of the egyptians, he saved those kids. if those kids would of grown up they would have been as evil and wicked as their parents. but since they still had their innocence and couldnt choose to believe in god or not then they were saved and taken to heaven. so yes god killed them BUT he took them heaven to be with him.
Posted by Dofusman 5 years ago
Dofusman
... The god written about in the bible has taken quattuorvigintillions of lives, innocent or otherwise. Hitler personally took less than 300 (last I checked, but my source was wikipedia. verify this if you must). As for the other lives Hitler took, they probably added up to about 1 billion
Posted by JP 5 years ago
JP
God's commandments come first. You should obey your parents unless they tell you to do somethimg against the Bible.
Posted by resolutionsmasher 5 years ago
resolutionsmasher
Jesus clarified his own commadment. If the act is an act of hate then it is sin. If done in justice then it is ok.
Posted by zach12 5 years ago
zach12
but why does God get to break his own commandmants? Why can he kill but no one else may? Secondly, why kill the children, kill the parents who refused to put lambs blood on the door. The children are innocent and powerless. If they disobey their parents and put lamb's blood on the door, they are breaking the (5th I think?) commandment to honor thy father and mother. Either way, they're screwed
Posted by tough1172 5 years ago
tough1172
yes god did kill every person on the planet but if u read in the bible it says that people were acting very evil and wicked. He also promised that he would never destroy the earth again by flood, and as for the first bornes in egypt, they were really vicious to the jews and moses warned that if u wanted ur firstbornes to live to put sheeps blood on the door frame of ur house, so it was ur choice whether u wanted ur son/daughter to die or not.
Posted by DiablosChaosBroker 5 years ago
DiablosChaosBroker
Hey, zach12, challenge me to this debate when you have time okay?
Posted by zach12 5 years ago
zach12
God killed every single human on the planet except for Noah's family and killed every animal that wasn't on the ark. Then he killed the firstborns in Egypts
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