The Instigator
LifeMeansGodIsGood
Pro (for)
Winning
5 Points
The Contender
garywest22
Con (against)
Losing
3 Points

God loves you.

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
LifeMeansGodIsGood
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 9/19/2014 Category: Philosophy
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 576 times Debate No: 61980
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (10)
Votes (2)

 

LifeMeansGodIsGood

Pro

God loves you. He loves you so much that even if you hate Him and show that hatred by saying He is not there, being willfully ignorant of His love, He still gave His Son to die in your place. As the Son of God, Jesus is God (if a man has a son, that son is human, God's Son is God) He proved God's love for you in dying in your place. You are the one who deserves to die (the same as me and everybody else) but God Himself took your death so that He can be satisfied that the death you owe for your sin is paid for and you can be forgiven. Your sin eternally makes you a sinner. The acts of sin you commit are symptoms of what you are eternally: a sinner.......that is if you do not get saved from your sin. You can be saved and be a new creation in Jesus Christ, He will give you a new heart, born of His Holy Spirit if you will A)admit you are a sinner who deserves to die and burn in Hell B) Believe on the death for your sin, burial with your sin, and bodily resurrection free from your sin accomplished by God as the Son of God, and C) Call on God the Father in the name of Jesus Christ to save you. If you will believe on Him and receive Him as your Saviour, He will give you eternal life. This is the promise of God. It's the gospel, the good news for mankind. All can be saved. God loves you.

This debate challenge will be issued to somebody who shows in the comments that they will not negate the debate by simply saying it is not possible to prove God is there. Of course it is not possible to prove God is there if you are determined to believe He is not there. If you won't believe a rock is hard, I can't prove that rock is hard by telling you it is hard. if I hit you on the head and knock you out with it because you would not believe it was hard from the start and after you are knocked out it is too late to believe it, you would go into darkness having proved to yourself that as long as you were conscious, the rock could not be proved to be hard. After you wake up, you know the rock was hard. That's how it is for the atheist who finalized his death say God is not there. One day they wake up in the fire of Hell and then they know the rock was hard.
garywest22

Con

I have accepted this challenge and now invite your opening argument, listing your main points. I appreciate this may be based on your opening introduction, in which case please confirm that and I will provide my detailed response, or please set out your points so we can begin.

And good luck to you!
Debate Round No. 1
LifeMeansGodIsGood

Pro

Repeating my first round arguments as my second round arguments. Please offer some counters as to why you believe God does not love you..
garywest22

Con

For the purposes of this debate we agree that God exists but his attributes we have not agreed and they are open to argument. In the same way, you state he gave His Son to die in our place but that again is not agreed. So we are clear and can progress I agree God exists. You must prove to me that Christ is His Son because otherwise he could be simply a wise man who took a more loving and contrary attitude to those in power of his day.

The bible is full of examples of how God acts with vengeance and anger. You know that so how can you still say without exception that God loves you and always will no matter what? If that is true, why would it not have been the case for those he smote at the time?

All your assertions are based on the bible of course, which I appreciate. However that work must also be held in question for it is without doubt a collection of letters that have been left open to interpretation in translation and, whether anyone likes it or not, was deliberated over at the Councils of Nicaea and Carthage in the 4th and 5th centuries and by the end of the latter included the Book of Revelations to finally settle on current content. The point is that men, not God, decided what books would make up the bible and, more importantly, what books would be excluded. That power lay firmly in Man's hands so to say that from this book we can deduce that God loves us irrespective, that His Son died for our sins and that we must follow His way so that we can live in His eternal love is I am sorry to say entirely based on your own faith and the decisions of men, not of God. Please show me the proof, independent of the bible and your personal faith, that what you say about our status, our requirement to confess our sins through Christ and our knowledge that God loves us without condition is true beyond question.

Love is a very powerful force and I do not disagree that it could lay at the heart of the purpose of our existence. I also do not disagree that God Himself exists. However you are relying on arguments based on material that is open widely to critique and worse, sticking to a well trodden path through His Son and our sins. You are in essence asserting that God cannot be known personally and independently of the bible but that we must all have faith and follow Christ without question, yet you have not proven that Christ is even God's actual son let alone that he died for us.

Science has come a long way in the support of atheism and certainly in revealing weaknesses held within the framework of the bible yet ironically, it may well end up being the one thing that also reveals God Himself. That however is a far cry from it proving the bible and therefore what you assert in your argument, and I must remind you the bible was collated selectively by man, written by him over more than 1500 years and has helped the church throughout history wield enormous power. It does not show me that the only way to my salvation is to follow God through Christ.
Debate Round No. 2
LifeMeansGodIsGood

Pro

We can't agree on God's attributes in you will not believe that He is love and that He loves you. You can't blame Him for rejecing from life those of His creatures who insist on accusing Him of being bad or uncaring. You can't blame God for being angy with you if you keep saying He does not love you and you talk bad about Him. How long do you think He should put up with that stuff from His creatures? How long do you think it will be before God says something like "Enough is enough, away with you who reject my love, I'm tired of your accusations against me and I'm not going to take any more"?
Do you think God owes anything to you that he should tolerate your defiance against Him? We have all sinned against God, we have all broken His law (the tiniest lie ro the tiniest theft of the tiniest thought of lust toward a woman you are not married to, is sin. All sin is unrighteousness, we are all unrighteous when we stand in front of God. God loves you and does not want to execute your punishment, for which justice would demand that you be cast away from God forever because you are a sinner and you will remain a sinner forever if God does not make you into a new creature who will not sin againt Him. Yes God acts in vengence againt His creatures who He tolearted while they acted in defiance of Him and added to the destructions caused by breaking the law He gave which was to preserve the beauty and harmony of His creation which He made to enjoy, to glorify Himself, to share with creatures like Himself everything He made for the pleasure of making it and them. He loves you so much that He took your death in the form of a man. He paid your price so you can be forgiven. This is the love of God, to die for His enemies so they can be spared from His wrath. God loves even His enemies, and He will always love them even if they suffer His wrath forever and they foreever insist He is evil and He is not love. God never changes and never will change. He loves you if you think He does or if you think He does not.

Jesus is God the creator came down from heaven to die for your sins to be your Saviour. He paid with His blood to buy you back from the Hell you have earned by your sins agaisnt God. I cannot prove to you that He is the Son of God. I can say that if you have a son, your son is a man like you. God's Son is God. Only God can give you eternal life. If you do not have eternal life, you have eternal death. I cannot prove to you that Hell is real and eternal death. I cannot prove to you that you deserve to die for your sin. You say I must prove things like this to you. I say you must believe things like this or you are going to get the proof you say you must have when you wake up in the fire of Hell,


There is nothing new about science supporting atheism. It's pseudo-science when you say science proves God is not there. You cannot prove by science what you cannot observe. True science is observation of facts, not fabrication of beliefs or history.
garywest22

Con

Are you really now telling me that I must acknowledge God is love and that loves me? The whole point of this debate is to argue that precise point yet you are now telling me I must accept it in order to discuss His attributes. Do you not feel any need to actually support your opinion with proof or at least outline where I can deduce the same conclusion myself?

You tell me I cannot blame him for being angry but this is partly the problem because your argument is based on you telling me what God is and what God does. How can you possibly know that? Is it because the bible says so? Is it because you have a direct and personal relationship with him above and beyond anything anyone else has experienced? You can only 'know' yourself and even that is arguable, although I believe to argue against it is weak - ego cogito sum is adequate. Nevertheless, to 'know' what someone else is and does is not as easy as you think. You cannot know that of your own parents yet you can deduce knowing their existence because you know you were born. Thus you can deduce the existence of their parents, and theirs, and so on all the way back even though those people no longer exist physically but never can you argue for who they were in themselves or what they thought and how they acted. To suggest you can know God more clearly is arrogant but to insist someone else does because you say so is worse. Show me proof or show me how I can deduce the same conclusion as you and I will happily explore that path.

However in your argument you state God loves you yet now you say he could say 'enough is enough' and get fed up with people, no longer wishing to tolerate defiance. If what you say is true I would suggest God is not love any where near as much as you suggest! Love exists in spite of defiance, in spite of those you direct it to not giving it back in return. Have you not considered that the onus may be on us to love God irrespective of whether he loves us and irrespective of His attributes? Perhaps if you accept sin is a natural part of our existence, as you say we all do it even in small ways, God reveals Himself in many ways even to those who do not believe in Him but if you choose to love Him despite what the bible says, despite what religions say, despite what science or atheism says, then you are displaying love in its truest sense. If He chooses to ignore you then perhaps it makes you stupid but nevertheless you still show love. If love is the root or all power then God himself could never get greater than love from that source, not love that people have been told by men they must display.

You have still yet to respond to any element of this argument in terms of proof most especially in terms of your sources for reaching the attitude you have. If it is the bible please answer my comments on its source and validity. If it is elsewhere please show me that so I can deduce my own conclusions. Otherwise, to say I must accept God loves me to progress means you have to lose.
Debate Round No. 3
LifeMeansGodIsGood

Pro

Would you prefer to believe God is uncaring, or even worse, God is hatred; and God does not care about you or even worse, He hates you? Friend (I say friend because God is my friend and I am like you, facing the same death penalty as you before time is no longer counted down to the end. My heart goes out to you as I know God's heart goes out to all mankind, desiring that we should all be aaved from our sin, death, and Hell, and have uninterrupted eternal life with Him.
This is His promise: His pardon can be secured for us and we can be forgiven based on the fact that He loves us so much that He took our death penalty so we would not have to die. In His bodily resurrection, He conquered death and if we will hear His loving voice, and open the door to Him, He will come in to us (as He has come into me, I know Jesus Chrst dwells in my by His Holy Spirit which He gives to all who believe on Jesus and receive Him by faith). As He was buried for my sin, He rose free from sin's grip. He placed himself under sin's penalty on my behalf, to set me free from death. I have been buried with Him in the likeness of His death as He took my death, and now I am raised with Him in the likeness of His resurrection. I know I have eternal life now, and when my time has counted down to the finalization of the death this body deserves due to my sin, the death which Jesus who is God took in my place, death has no dominion over me. There is a new me inside this old body, a new me who is born of the Spirt of God, a new man inside this old man who is going to be like Jesus when I see Him face to face. You see? This is the love of God, which surpasses any human love, God died for us when we were still His enemies. He took our place to buy us back from death. God owns me now through the price He paid in His own blood through the terrible sufferings He took for me when they crucified Him. If you or I had been there when they crucified Him, we would have been like everybody else, even His closest friends: they all turned their backs on Him and ran away. Then He rose from the dead and showed Himself to them alive, and they who believed on Him knew they were forgiven and He loved them from the beginnning and still loves them.

Is this not supporting proof of the fact that God loves you? What more proof can you ask for?

Yes, I'm telling you WHO...not "what" God is, and what He does. He is love personified, and He loves you.

My personal relationship with God the Father is far below what Jesus knew of His Father. My understanding of Him is limitied by my faults, but expanded by knowing Him as He reveals Himself through His Son and His Word. His lessons for me are written between the lines throughout the whole sin-struck creation. I wrestle with issues of life the same as you. I get angry when things don't go the way want the same as you. I have passions the same as you. God loves me the same as He loves you. He wants you to trust Him.

Jesus is the path. You can know God. Only believe.
garywest22

Con

This debate is not about whether I believe God is uncaring but about whether He loves me or not and so far you have not provided any proof whatsoever in support of your assumption. You 'tell' me that He does and expect me to follow that blindly instead of showing me how I might. How can you speak of His promise; what is the source of that promise that I should believe in that and only that?

I am happy for you my friend that you have such faith and that you believe in it but you have singularly failed to prove that 'God loves you' and me and everyone else. You tell me that He does but have not shown me a single item of proof that allows me to agree. Your only source is the bible and even on that you fail to answer my questions. I have not said the bible is a waste of time, it is far from it, but it is not possible to conclude your argument from it alone, especially without at least answering against its weaknesses.

Let me give you one more example. You state that He rose from the dead and showed Himself alive; how do you personally know that? It is from the bible; the bible tells us that right? Is there any other source? Are there any other conclusions that might be drawn from the same facts other than that He must therefore be the Son of God personified? Is it at all possible that there might be other ways to look at Christ? If you disagree with that then you have to admit your faith is blind, which I will still respect, but then if so you have to accept your fail in your argument. However if you accept there are other possible conclusions then you cannot use that line to show God loves me without doubt.

God may love me, but maybe He does not and believes it is for me to find Him and love Him without condition simply because I can. His creation would be all the more powerful if He creates sapient beings who despite His lack of proof over His existence still choose to love Him. That would singularly be the most powerful form of love. To tell me what He is and wants without any justification for it other than your beliefs based on a book of highly selective texts all written by man cannot possibly lead me to conclude God loves me without doubt.

I hope you find Him and see that you believe you do. However the journey you choose is not one you can push onto other people and expect them to agree whether you like it or not. Instead of showing me God, you show me your personal conclusions drawn from the bible. Can you not see the difference or therefore the weakness in your argument for this debate?

There are endless example in the bible of God being anything but loving. You say why should He love someone if they fail Him but either He shows love irrespective or you must accept He loves selectively, in which case He hardly leads by a great example as He gives up when he is fed up of being defied by people. That is not a loving God; that is more like a young child not getting their sweets.

God may be love but we must find Him and know why.
Debate Round No. 4
LifeMeansGodIsGood

Pro

If you believe God does not love you, then you must believe He does not care about you. His cares for you because He loves you. That is exactly what this debate is about.
God does not expect you to follow Him blindly. He wants you to know Him openly, in the Light, not blindly in the dark. Light reveals the truth. The Light of God reveals every secret you have, every feeling, every imagination, every word, every action. God loves you and you can hide nothing from Him. How can I prove God loves you if you won't believe He loves you? God promises eternal life to all who believe He loves them so much that He gave His Son, God the Man who came down from heaven in the form of a man, the Son of god, who took on Himself all of your wrongs so He is satisfied justice was executed against you wrongs when He took your death. You don't have to take your wrongs on yourself in your death. You do not have to die. You can have eternal lfe now. This is the promise of God. He Himself is the souce of His promise.
God makes this promise to you because He loves you. You won't receive His promise, the gift of God which is eternal life through Jesus Christ the Lord, if you won't believe He loves you God is the source of His promise. The proof of His promise is in the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead. Receive Him as your Saviour, Call on God in Jesus' name, believing on His resurrection, and you will have eternal life. God loves you and He wants you to believe Him, trust in His promises, and know His love. You should believe in that and only that because there is nothing or nobody else who can make good on such a promise. Only God can do this; deliver on His promise of eternal lfe. You can have His promise now, you can be an heir of His promise now.

There is no weakness in God's love. I cannot provide answers proving the Bible is His love letter to mankind if you will not beleve He loves you. I guess I have failed to prove God loves you, but I cannot concede that you have proven He does not love you. I know God loves you. God Himself cannot convince you that He loves you if you will not believe He loves you. The problem lies within the shadows of your heart, not in God's love. You are hiding from or dodging God in the shadows of your heart. You think you are hiding from or dodging God, but He loves you and nothing is hidden from Him.

My arguements are based on the Bible, but I'm trying to appeal to your human reasoning. Can't you see that if you will not beleive God loves you, you can't know God's love? God died in your place to pay for the wrongs you have done against Him ( and you have done plenty wrong against God, the same as everybody else. Any wrong you do is wrong against God.) If you will not beleive He loves you so much that He died for you even though you were wrong against Him, you will die for your own wrongs and have no way of makign things right. When Jesus died for you, He became the way for you to be made right with God. There is no other way.
garywest22

Con

From your argument: '[He] cares for you because He loves you' and 'God does not expect you to follow him blindly' and 'He wants you to know Him openly' and 'God loves you and you can hide nothing from Him'. These are just a few examples of you repeatedly telling me what God thinks and does. How can you possibly know that? That is a rhetorical question because of course you cannot. You admit your source is the bible and we both know the books contained within that were decided upon by men, written by men over 1500 years and despite being inspirational words of wisdom in many parts do remain to this day works of men. I do not aim to belittle the bible at all but you simply cannot use it to prove that God loves me. You certainly cannot use it to tell me what He thinks or does but that is precisely what you have done throughout.

I will give you one more example: You say I won't receive His promise of eternal life through Christ if I won't believe God loves me being the source of His promise and that the proof, and you do say proof, is in the resurrection of Christ. Please tell me how a book of collected writings of men in any way proves not only that Christ was resurrected, that he was the son of God but that God himself exists beyond doubt and that He loves me. Just because it is written in the bible does not make it fact; there are endless examples of errors in the bible just as there are in other religious works. That does not detract from their message necessarily but you cannot take everything in them as truth. Furthermore using your logic we should therefore believe everything in every other bible version along with the Koran and the Harry Potter novels for that matter.

I want to know that God loves me, which is why I accepted this debate. However you circle back all the time to one source which by definition must be in doubt and have failed to provide any argument for God's existence let alone His love away from this same source. You repeatedly 'tell' me what I ought to believe and what He thinks and expects instead of showing me how I can know that for myself. You tell me you cannot provide answers if I will not believe He loves me. So you tell me God loves me and then expect me to agree in advance because unless I do I cannot know Him! Please take a step back from your argument and look at what you are saying from above. I am asking you to show me proof, to show me a way to know God that does not rely solely on a book which can be argued against very easily indeed. I am asking you to show me that religion is a clear and straight path to God but all I see is works written by men for men and that often means, unfortunately, that God and religion are two very different things.

I do believe in God; I question religion although I accept there are many facets to it that provide inspiration. I will continue my search for God and an understanding of Him but you have failed to show me anything that helps in that quest. I wish you luck my friend.
Debate Round No. 5
10 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by 3177318 2 years ago
3177318
Is Pro trolling? cuz his arguments make no sense whatsoever.
Posted by garywest22 2 years ago
garywest22
Hi TheVic...yes, by all means please do...
Posted by TheVic 2 years ago
TheVic
Hi Gary, is it ok if I add you? maybe we could exchange messages, or would you prefer we talk in the comments? It seems you're online now.
Posted by garywest22 2 years ago
garywest22
Hi TheVic; many thanks for your reply.

If the Church is what you say then clarify something for me please: why is 'your' Church the correct one and the others, who each may have different interpretations of the bible, different translations, different beliefs within the broader sense of Christianity, are wrong? And my point is that the argument put across to me remains very weak because, and with respect, you do exactly the same; you believe it so state it must be true. It is your decision to do that, which I respect, but that is a complete disconnect from it coming from God Himself or from anyone else, including me, being able to know it with the same conviction. I am not seeking to belittle the Church, your Church or God but simply to point out that the argument in favour of God fails if it rests solely on making someone accept the bible as you believe it should be interpreted. I am not an atheist but even the most basic of those who are could argue against it. That is my point; I am trying to challenge you here to put forward a stronger argument so that others may see the wisdom in believing in God, whether that is the God of your version of the bible or not.

I have studied the bible extensively, along with hundreds of other religious, philosophical and scientific works aimed at the question of God and personally I believe common sense can prove the existence of God (Occam's Razor would demand it if applied independently) but that can only ever be a personal conclusion. In the beginning God intended His relationship to be with mankind direct, speaking to Adam regularly and to others after him. Irrespective of whether you then believe in the version of events the bible provides us with, nevertheless that intention remains. It can be found perhaps but never by being told we must believe because a book interpreted to suit tells us.

Show me a path I can deduce is correct myself and allow me to follow; please don't tell me I have to do so without question.
Posted by TheVic 2 years ago
TheVic
Hi Garywest22, thank you for addressing me and giving you the chance to share with you the following:

You said in your comment that God could have guided the Church into recognizing which books belonged in the canon. I am telling you He has done it. Let me tell you this: The "Church" is not just a building or a denomination, it's the group of people from all the world who truly worship the Lord Jesus Christ who died for our sins, came back to life and now is at the right side of God Father. When Jesus went back to heaven, He sent the Holy Spirit who guide us to know what teachings are in accordance to His words. But for that you have to truly accept Him in your heart, repent from your sins and accept His precious gift of salvation.

Jesus will be in you and you will be with Him, then The Holy Spirit will guide you to study His word with prayer and dedication. That is why we know what books do not belong in the canon or what translations are wrong. But is not something we can "show" is something that we feel inside.

You say you believe in Him, let me tell you Satan also believes, but he knows he will loose in the end and he wants to take as much of humanity as he could, do not let him take you. You are precious to God, he gave you chances to know Him, He is just reminding you once again (from Peru) that He loves you and wants you to be saved. (John 3:16 -For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. King James Version) You can't just "agree" with Him, He is God. If you accept Jesus in your heart and someone tells you something about God, then your responsibility is to study the Bible, ask God for guidance and then you will know if what you were told is true or not.

God bless you Gary ... regardless of your choice, I wish you the best in life.
Posted by garywest22 2 years ago
garywest22
TheVic - who is 'we'? And how is it that what you recognise is correct but that others are not? Are the books included chosen by God or by men?

I agree that many examples of mistranslation and misinterpretation abound and have been the cause of many battles through history but how different groups of men choose to interpret books written by men in the first place is a very different thing from proving God loves everyone. That is all I am saying and whilst I believe in God I just cannot agree that He loves me when so much evidence points to the opposite being just as possible.
Posted by TheVic 2 years ago
TheVic
He did ... We do recognize which books belong in the canon. Other people just let themselves be misguided by bibles with books that do not belong there, and the same goes for translations that misguide people into believing that there are so many different translations that they don't take the bible or God seriously.
Posted by dsjpk5 2 years ago
dsjpk5
Pet peeve... It's Revelation, not Revelations. Second, it is impossible for science to disprove Christianity at all. Third God could have guided the Church into recognizing which books belonged in the canon.
Posted by ATHOS 2 years ago
ATHOS
@pro. Why would an omnipotent, omniscient entity be angry at anything at all ?
Posted by garywest22 2 years ago
garywest22
Will you invite the people who commented on the original post to follow and comment here?
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by The-Holy-Macrel 2 years ago
The-Holy-Macrel
LifeMeansGodIsGoodgarywest22Tied
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Total points awarded:50 
Reasons for voting decision: He did better and his source was the bible. (better than nothing?)
Vote Placed by bladerunner060 2 years ago
bladerunner060
LifeMeansGodIsGoodgarywest22Tied
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Reasons for voting decision: Pro made no arguments--he merely preached, and at one point flatly appealed to consequence, asking what Con would "prefer" to believe in. Pro never made a case, and Con rightly pointed out that Pro hadn't done so, so Con gets arguments here. Pro, in the future, you have to actually make a case--and, if you want to use, say, the bible, it wouldn't hurt to stipulate that, too (since then the whole Jesus/Son of God thing might have been easier to assert). As always, happy to clarify this RFD.