The Instigator
katiesunshine
Pro (for)
Losing
24 Points
The Contender
Yrael
Con (against)
Winning
54 Points

God needs to stay in America.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/7/2008 Category: Politics
Updated: 9 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 2,213 times Debate No: 1498
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (11)
Votes (26)

 

katiesunshine

Pro

This Country was founded on God, by Religious people. God needs to stay in our Constitution, on our Money, in our schools, and in our lives.
Yrael

Con

Sure, I'll argue this one. First and foremost I need something to argue against but I guess I will make a couple of points on what you have said so far.

"This Country was founded on God"

>>How so, I would argue that it was founded on principle of breaking away from Britain?

"By Religious people."

>>By this I would suppose you to mean that our founding fathers were religious men. Well first off, prove this please. Secondly would you agree that most people at that time were religious and being so would be a precedent for being any type of accepted member in society? Thirdly, why must we be religious if our forefathers were? At one point our forefathers believed the earth was flat, at one point that the earth revolved around the sun. At one time our forefathers believed blacks should be slaves to whites. At one time they believed women lesser than men. To follow exactly in the footsteps of our forefathers would be to render society worthless. (Unless you consider that to be utopia....?)

"God needs to stay in our Constitution"

>>Why? What affect does god on our constitution have? Does it make us better people? Would we suddenly fall into anarchy without such? Are the laws of the United States obeyed because there is the word god in our constitution? Where is your argument based?

"on our Money"

>>Same as the last one. Would our money be worthless without the phrase "in god we trust". Furthermore on this one.... would god even want this? You are raising the most materialistic object in his name. What has caused more bank robberies, murders, and crimes in general than money itself. Should we have such associated with god? Is it his will to be on the currency?

"in our schools"

>>Hmmmm... Well... what god are you talking about? The phrase "in god we trust" infers we are trusting in the same god. That doesn't leave much wiggle room for multiple religions. How does this work under a multi-religion society. The U.S isn't just a small colony anymore, it has had massive immigration from literally everywhere. What happens to the buddhists, muslims, hindhus, universists, jews, athiests? I am assuming you are talking christian god, only about 33% of the population of the world hold that belief. What happens to the rest? Is it possible this will create strife in school? Gangs? Shootings? Is that what your god wants?

"and in our lives"

>>What if we don't believe in your god.....? This country was based on freedom wasn't it? It was created because of the injustities that were occurring from the british. Read the declaration of independence. Is forcing government control over a person's personal beliefs really just? Say in the future the majority of the population becomes buddhist. Would it be right for them to enforce their religion on you? Would you enjoy your children being taught buddhism in schools? Would you enjoy "in budda we believe" on our currency? In our constitution?

Anyways give me advocacy here. And do you have a problem with the 2nd speech being a contention and the 3rd speech being strictly a rebuttal?
Debate Round No. 1
katiesunshine

Pro

"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."
-John Adams

-If that's not true than why is it the people trying to change things so much in the Constitution are trying to make it more for an un-religious people?

"How so, I would argue that it was founded on principle of breaking away from Britain?"

-Breaking away from Britain to have Religious Freedom.

"By this I would suppose you to mean that our founding fathers were religious men. Well first off, prove this please. Secondly would you agree that most people at that time were religious and being so would be a precedent for being any type of accepted member in society? Thirdly, why must we be religious if our forefathers were? At one point our forefathers believed the earth was flat, at one point that the earth revolved around the sun. At one time our forefathers believed blacks should be slaves to whites. At one time they believed women lesser than men. To follow exactly in the footsteps of our forefathers would be to render society worthless. (Unless you consider that to be utopia....?)"

-They were religious. Look at the Constitution, the First amendment was the religion part. I don't think that was just randomly put there, it was something they felt strongly about and wanted everyone to have. Even you having the right to practice no religion.

"Why? What affect does god on our constitution have? Does it make us better people? Would we suddenly fall into anarchy without such? Are the laws of the United States obeyed because there is the word god in our constitution? Where is your argument based?"

-Refer back to the quote by John Adams. And Religion does in fact make us better people. Generally speaking religion brings about good works. Churches help the poor, do service work etc...
I happen to be Mormon, in our articles of faith #12 it says "We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law." We live by that, and many other religions feel the same about obeying the law. Therefore God/Religion do have an effect on people keeping the law.

"Same as the last one. Would our money be worthless without the phrase "in god we trust". Furthermore on this one.... would god even want this? You are raising the most materialistic object in his name. What has caused more bank robberies, murders, and crimes in general than money itself. Should we have such associated with god? Is it his will to be on the currency?"

-(I realize you don't believe in God) But God has given us everything. Life, Food, Land, etc... "In God we Trust" should be a reminder that God has given us everything, everything we can buy with that money was given to us from God, so it is giving him credit for that. Money isn't meant to be seen as something bad.

"Hmmmm... Well... what god are you talking about? The phrase "in god we trust" infers we are trusting in the same god. That doesn't leave much wiggle room for multiple religions. How does this work under a multi-religion society. The U.S isn't just a small colony anymore, it has had massive immigration from literally everywhere. What happens to the buddhists, muslims, hindhus, universists, jews, athiests? I am assuming you are talking christian god, only about 33% of the population of the world hold that belief. What happens to the rest? Is it possible this will create strife in school? Gangs? Shootings? Is that what your god wants?"

-god is pretty much a title. god could be seen as a greater being, of whatever religion you want. I'm totally fine with people thinking what they want, that's up to them to worship "How, where and what they please"
So any religion should be welcomed in school. Christians, Muslims, Jews, should all be able to worship their "god" (Or whatever they believe in) in public, including school.

"What if we don't believe in your god.....? This country was based on freedom wasn't it? It was created because of the injustities that were occurring from the british. Read the declaration of independence. Is forcing government control over a person's personal beliefs really just? Say in the future the majority of the population becomes buddhist. Would it be right for them to enforce their religion on you? Would you enjoy your children being taught buddhism in schools? Would you enjoy "in budda we believe" on our currency? In our constitution?"

-I don't think anyone should be forced to believe anything. Your welcome to believe or not believe whatever you want. Learning about religion is a good thing, if it was equal and my children were taught about budda, but they were still taught about Christ it'd be fine. Knowledge of something can lead away from conflict, so that'd actually be good. (And once again, god is more of a title)

The quote from John Adams explains it all.

(And sorry this is my first debate, so I'm still trying to figure it all out.)
Yrael

Con

"I do not reject your Christ, I love your Christ. It is just that so many of you Christians are so unlike your Christ." - Ghandi

This will seem like a mildly unorthodox way of attacking your point but I will do so anyways.

""Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."
-John Adams"

>>Really? You mean nonreligious people cannot function under our government? I'd argue that many of your religious people are not even moral, see my above quote. Also we have people immigrate to this country all the time from all over the world. Are all of them religious or even moral?

"-If that's not true than why is it the people trying to change things so much in the Constitution are trying to make it more for an un-religious people?"

>>What do you mean? The constitution has been changed for the better. 13-15th amendments?

"-Breaking away from Britain to have Religious Freedom. "

>>I contest this idea, we broke from Britain because of the intolerable exploitations of the American economy through one sided trade.

"-They were religious. Look at the Constitution, the First amendment was the religion part. I don't think that was just randomly put there, it was something they felt strongly about and wanted everyone to have. Even you having the right to practice no religion."

>>Great but you still drop my other two points. The second saying it was the precedent of the day to be so and the third asking why we need to then be so. And on this point... I do look at the constitution the first amendment says freedom of religion, speech, press. Does that prove them religious somehow? And going off of that, doesn't that mean we should have total religious freedom in this country? (on to this point more later)

"Refer back to the quote by John Adams. And Religion does in fact make us better people. Generally speaking religion brings about good works. Churches help the poor, do service work etc...
I happen to be Mormon, in our articles of faith #12 it says "We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law." We live by that, and many other religions feel the same about obeying the law. Therefore God/Religion do have an effect on people keeping the law."

>>I would argue that they have no effect. Would you abide by the satanistic religion at this point in your life? No, I wouldn't either, I don't like Ayn Rand. The religion you choose matches your values in life. Becoming religious doesn't suddenly make you a moral or good person.

"(I realize you don't believe in God) But God has given us everything. Life, Food, Land, etc... "In God we Trust" should be a reminder that God has given us everything, everything we can buy with that money was given to us from God, so it is giving him credit for that. Money isn't meant to be seen as something bad."

>>First off, how do you know he has given you all of that? Secondly which god are you talking about....? You say later that god is just a noun but I think many theistic people would argue with you and say "there is only one true god". And what about the people that don't believe in god?

"god is pretty much a title. god could be seen as a greater being, of whatever religion you want. I'm totally fine with people thinking what they want, that's up to them to worship "How, where and what they please"
So any religion should be welcomed in school. Christians, Muslims, Jews, should all be able to worship their "god" (Or whatever they believe in) in public, including school."

>>Really? Then what is going to be taught in schools? Just the concept of "god"? Does that have any meaning behind it without a religion? You say we should follow the forefathers examples but would have they told us to teach any religion in school.... I would doubt so, besides christianity maybe. Plus this is in clear violation of the first amendment. Why aren't kids allowed to vote and have full rights? Because they are thought of as not being able to make the choices for themselves yet. Kids are supposed to be taught the principles of life until they are 18. Well if you are going to have religion in school what religion is it going to be? Have you ever tried to convince your little brother or sister that the geometry lesson their 5th grade teacher taught them isn't true? It just doesn't work. Kids will believe what they are told if done in the right manner. This is a clear infringement of the 1st amendment.

"I don't think anyone should be forced to believe anything. Your welcome to believe or not believe whatever you want. Learning about religion is a good thing, if it was equal and my children were taught about budda, but they were still taught about Christ it'd be fine. Knowledge of something can lead away from conflict, so that'd actually be good. (And once again, god is more of a title)"

>>How do you propose to do this? Teach every religion equally? It would never work in our country for one because of the angry parents. For two, what of the people that believe nothing?

Finally some other points. The 1st amendment includes the separation of church and state phrase which was written by Thomas Jefferson on Jan 1st 1802. If we are to go with your quote from John Adams then we must also go with my quote from the man who wrote the constitution. Thomas Jefferson advocated for a wall between church and state, how can you say this country was founded on god?

On god him/herself, what makes you think you have the right god? Gods have been around for a great number of years and there are new ones invented every so often. With the consideration of past and future gods, what makes yours the one?

Also lets go more in depth on your belief in him/her. What makes you believe in him/her. I would be willing to bet it was your up bringing. So let me ask you somethings, pretending that we were not having this debate.

Do you believe in Santa Clause? (probably not) When did you stop believing? (friends or family told you?) Would have you stopped believing if no one told you he wasn't real? (Of course you would have, that idea is ridiculous, you just had to grow up)

And I would say it is also, but say I spoofed Santa up a bit? Say instead of dictating whether you got presents or not with his naughty/nice list he could instead condemn you to an eternity of punishment or bliss? Say his elves were far more powerful than they are now? They can do just about anything, making anything at will, create miracles! And forget the north pole, now he lives on a plane we can't even see! Would that make you believe in Santa any more than you do now? (no) But that is your god.......

Finally, you support the first amendment but your idea of having god on everything not only goes against the government which you try to support (how would we ever get anything done if congress turned into a debate about which god would like what the most?) but also it subliminally effects everyone. If a kid is raised for 18 years being taught god in school, on currency, in government. Then that kid is going to have such a higher chance to believe, in a god. Perhaps your Christian god, perhaps a theistic satanist god? Who's to tell? Not to mention the countless people who would be offended by it all the time. This is supposed to be a country built on freedom. I have no problem with you believing in god, if that helps you be a better person then so be it. But please leave your god out of my life, let me choose how to live.
Debate Round No. 2
katiesunshine

Pro

katiesunshine forfeited this round.
Yrael

Con

Yrael forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
11 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by mjg283 9 years ago
mjg283
I must be behind the times. Is G-d considering leaving us and moving to Zimbabwe?
Posted by Tatarize 9 years ago
Tatarize
Morality and religion have as much to do with each other as eyecolor and eyesight.
Posted by killa_connor 9 years ago
killa_connor
There is so much I want to say. I don't want to steal Yrael's thunder though.

If you attack this perceived link between morality and religion (which is implied by this John Adam's quote he keeps referencing) it should be game over for Pro.

Love the debate though! I'll be back.

-connor
Posted by solo 9 years ago
solo
Nah, more of a... "When you get shutdown, it's because of me." HA! I have the webmaster checking the ISPs for suspicious accounts (that start with the letter "R").
Posted by Yrael 9 years ago
Yrael
This thing needs and IM system.....
Posted by Yrael 9 years ago
Yrael
Sounds like a threat to someone. ^^
Posted by solo 9 years ago
solo
Yeah, not to mention the rampant cheating I've noticed. I don't really care if it happens, as long as people don't think that their smarter than me about it. I've already reported some folks... folks that I'm sure will read this and not be paranoid about closing the multiple accounts until he realizes the I know at least two ("fake") accounts start with the letter "R".
Posted by Yrael 9 years ago
Yrael
Alright, fine. Though I do think this cite has a voting problem...... I think there should be a "how to vote" tutorial. =)
Posted by solo 9 years ago
solo
I'm not like that. AND *pretend I'm using a smaller font* I may have been wrong.
Posted by Yrael 9 years ago
Yrael
Hey.... aren't you supposed to be impeding my debating, not helping...? I mean, I did just vote against you and then attempt to convince other people to vote against you.....
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Vote Placed by impactyourworld89 9 years ago
impactyourworld89
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Vote Placed by killa_connor 9 years ago
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