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God of the Bible is evil

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 9/24/2013 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 2,222 times Debate No: 38086
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (35)
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I am debating the notion that the God of the Bible (i.e. Jehovah, YHWH, LORD, Elohim, I AM etc.) is indeed an evil deity and that reading the Bible without the help of apologists will lead one to disregard the bible altogether as nothing more than a fairy tale book with only a few good points.

My contender will obviously try to defend the latter.

This argument will be about the Bible the source of this entire dilemma that people are debating about, the root cause of people's belief in the Christian God. Also, this is not going to be an argument regarding the Quran so I will not debate an Islamic person, I will reserve that for another debate.

I will begin by stating that I will like to use the name Jehovah because I want to make it clear to whom I'm speaking about. Some will scorn at me stating that the tetragrammaton isn't accurate, and I am well aware of that, which is simply another factor contributing that the all-powerful God wasn"t able to keep his name straight). Next, I will like to point out that any deity who describes itself as the epitome of love (1 John 4:8) yet condones, orders, and carries out atrocities toward humankind, is not a "God of love" but rather a god of hate.

I would like to make my contender understand that the following scripture I will use as the foundation for this debate. It is taken from the book of 2 Timothy 3: 16 (GNB) which says: "All Scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching the truth, rebuking error, correcting faults, and giving instruction for right living." I would like to point out a few things here, first and foremost the bible writer here is stating that the entire canon of the Bible is the inspired word of God so anything that it states that it condoned, placed under law, was carried or ordered by God, is in fact in full support of the God of the Bible. With that said I will expose that the Bible cannot be used for "correcting faults", it is pretty truthful on the basis of how grotesque it is, it cannot rebuke the errors that are evident within, and it's not a suitable book to provide "instruction for the right living".


Just because you don't believe in something doesn't mean it's evil. Did it ever occur to you that the parables and stories within the bible are metaphors and that they are meant to be learned from? Just because you are too shallow to observe this doesn't make God evil. The stories which you referred to have great underlying messages that if you were to truly read them with unbiased opinion, you would be able to see. They show the basic principles of morality and human decency (you seem to have neither of which so far).

Also your petty point that God "can't get his name straight" is a very ignorant comment. God chose different names for himself not to confuse people but to help them understand more. Different languages convey different things. Some names for God are in Hebrew, some Arab, some Egyptian, and even some Greek. The point is, the fact that God has many names does not make him less intelligent. Rather, it is you who is less intelligent by making an uninformed and insensitive comment.

Consider yourself rebutted. I look forward to your next argument.

Sources: 11 years of studying the Catholic church and their teachings...
Debate Round No. 1


Apparently rebuking me and insulting me is a valid rebuttal against my first argument. There is no need to be shallow when reading the Bible that was supposed to be inspired by the all-powerful creator of the universe. The stories that I'm referring to are metaphors with underlying messages?? Ok.

Leviticus 25:44-46: "However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way." Were they metaphorically enslaved? What's the underlying message?

Exodus 21:7-11: "When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. "

Were they metaphorically sold?

According to my opponent, God metaphorically allowed the following to take place, or has an underlying message: "And in case a man strikes his slave man or his slave girl with a stick and that one actually dies under his hand, that one is to be avenged without fail. However, if he lingers for a day or two days, he is not to be avenged, because he is his money."(Exodus 21: 20-21 ) I wonder what underlying message is contained in that one, that the rod might have been made of gold or something? Were they metaphorically beaten with a rod?

So the basic principle (since my opponent tells me their supposed to be a principle learned here) is that God allowed his people, ancient Israelites, to enslave neighboring nations around about without their consent. Also they may be viciously beaten without being held accountable as long as the slave doesn't die from his/her injuries. That they are to be treated as "property"? Property like cattle? Are labeled as an inheritance to pass along to the next generation? Also, God allowed Fathers to sell their daughters into slavery in order to gain a prophet or to get out of debt? Where's the underlying principle there? Would this be acceptable in today's society? Or is this a metaphor, if so for what?

It's amazing that you're going to Catholic Church, studying for 11 years thus far, and all this time I'm certain you've come to the conclusion that God is all-powerful, all-knowing, etc. yet ask yourself the following: "How would a creator that supposed to have created the known universe, according to the Bible, wasn't able to provide a simple effective method in where those that were starving, needed money, could have been employed by the Hebrews with paid labor, instead of being forced into enslavement. I'm sure you'll cover the scripture Exodus 21:2-6 in where the slave supposedly loves his master and is wanting to remain a slave until his death. I'll reserve that for the next round.

I understand that some of the main stories of the Bible are taken as metaphors (i.e. The flood, Job, etc.) yet even though they might be, but you're telling me that I should understand that God easily gives up on humanity, kills everything on this planet, including thousands of innocent animals who've done nothing wrong, allows babies to suffer a horrific way to die by drowning, not to mention unborn babies, yet claiming to be all-powerful but couldn't find another method on how to rehabilitate humankind and needs rainbows to remind him to not destroy the world using water? I'm not rebutted my friend on the contrary you're being dishonest because you know the atrocities that the Bible contains yet your quick to defend saying that its all metaphors, parables with underlying messages.

Tell me, when Jesus was said to be crucified, what was the message of that metaphor? Clearly, he wasn't literally crucified since it's a metaphor. It probably just means that he became so radical that followers dismissed him and his ideas, resulting in a metaphorical "rejection, condemnation and death." When the bible says that he "rose from the dead," again it's a metaphor, so it probably means that he atoned for making up stories about god, admitted that he had no special connection to god, that he apologized, and was forgiven and re-accepted by the local community. When the bible says "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is an abomination." You need to ask, "since this is a metaphor and not to be interpreted literally, what does it mean?" I'm trying to be consistent with your statement that the Bible is to be taken as metaphor, yet I'm sure you'll argue that some are while others aren't, how do you determine that? Where do you draw the line that they are metaphors with underlying messages?

I look forward to your response....


michaeltaffe3 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 2


SimpleObserverofThings forfeited this round.


I would like to address all of the bible quotes you have thrown at me. The bible is obviously not perfect. it says that Moses lived to be over 900 years old. Obviously, this didn't happen. It was written to exaggerate numbers. The Israelis didn't march around Jericho for 40 years. The bible was not written for 2013. It was written in the mindset of people from 2000 years ago. It was written for them to understand. They exaggerated and used metaphors because people were not well learned in the language arts. They were barely literate! So to us, it seems like bad writing.

In fact, it was not written in English. Many of the bibles teachings are gravely mistranslated.

You cannot expect people to hear God loud and clear. He inspired them through the Holy Spirit. They could have misunderstood them. I honestly wasn't there 2000 years ago. I don't know.

The point is that many of the stories in the bible have underlying messages. They do not mean that Sarah had a baby when she was 80. It is an exaggeration of her age to show the power of God.

When the bible mentions slaves, it is not the slaves we think of. These slaves had nice homes that were their own property. They were paid and had days off. It wasn't the slavery we saw before the Civil War.

By "bought" in one of the quotes, they mean married. The father had to hook his daughter up with a man who he saw fit for her. it was customary then, and still is in the middle east and parts of Asia.

Finding the worst parts in the bible and only showing them is a bad representation of it. You found the most uninformed quotes from the most unconventional books of the bible and put them up online. here are some better ones:

John 3:16: For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Jer 29:11: For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.
Rom 8:28: And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.
Phil 4:13: I can do everything through him who gives me strength.
Gen 1:1: In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
Prov 3:5: Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding.
Prov 3:6: in all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make your paths straight.
Rom 12:2: Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God"s will is"his good, pleasing and perfect will.
Phil 4:6: Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God.
Matt 28:19: Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.
Eph 2:8: For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith"and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God"
Gal 5:22: But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
Rom 12:1: Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God"s mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God"this is your spiritual act of worship.
John 10:10: The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.
Acts 18:10: For I am with you, and no one is going to attack and harm you, because I have many people in this city."
Acts 18:9: One night the Lord spoke to Paul in a vision: "Do not be afraid; keep on speaking, do not be silent.
Acts 18:11: So Paul stayed for a year and a half, teaching them the word of God.
Gal 2:20: I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
1 John 1:9: If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
Rom 3:23: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
John 14:6: Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
Matt 28:20: and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."
Rom 5:8: But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
Phil 4:8: Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable"if anything is excellent or praiseworthy"think about such things.
Phil 4:7: And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.
Josh 1:9: Have I not commanded you? Be strong and courageous. Do not be terrified; do not be discouraged, for the LORD your God will be with you wherever you go."
Isa 40:31: but those who hope in the LORD will renew their strength. They will soar on wings like eagles; they will run and not grow weary, they will walk and not be faint.
Eph 2:9: not by works, so that no one can boast.
Rom 6:23: For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Gal 5:23: gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
Isa 53:5: But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed.
1 Pet 3:15: But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect,
2 Tim 3:16: All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
Matt 6:33: But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.
Heb 12:2: Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
1 Pet 5:7: Cast all your anxiety on him because he cares for you.
Eph 2:10: For we are God"s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
1 Cor 10:13: No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.
Matt 11:28: "Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.
Heb 11:1: Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.
2 Cor 5:17: Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!
Heb 13:5: Keep your lives free from the love of money and be content with what you have, because God has said, "Never will I leave you; never will I forsake you."
2 Cor 12:9: But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ"s power may rest on me.
Rom 10:9: That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Isa 41:10: So do not fear, for I am with you; do not be dismayed, for I am your God. I will strengthen you and help you; I will uphold you with my righteous right hand.
Gen 1:26: Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."
Matt 11:29: Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
John 16:33: "I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world."
Acts 1:8: But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth."
2 Tim 1:7: For God did not give us a spirit of timidity, but a spirit of power, of love and of self-discipline.
2 Cor 5:21: God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
Rom 15:13: May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace as you trust in him, so that you may overflow with hope by the power of the Holy Spirit.
John 11:25: Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies;
Heb 11:6: And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.
John 5:24: "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.
Jas 1:2: Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds,
Isa 53:6: We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Acts 2:38: Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Eph 3:20: Now to him who is able to do immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine, according to his power that is at work within us,
Matt 11:30: For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."
Gen 1:27: So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

Just to name a few...
Debate Round No. 3


I appreciate that you were a gentlemen this round and weren't quick to rebuke me in a very rude manner. To that I thank you.

Con stated: "I would like to address all of the bible quotes you have thrown at me. The bible is obviously not perfect. it says that Moses lived to be over 900 years old. Obviously, this didn't happen. It was written to exaggerate numbers. The Israelis didn't march around Jericho for 40 years. The bible was not written for 2013. It was written in the mindset of people from 2000 years ago. It was written for them to understand. They exaggerated and used metaphors because people were not well learned in the language arts. They were barely literate! So to us, it seems like bad writing."

The bible is indeed not perfect, it was written by men with little or no understanding of the natural world around them. They indeed exaggerate or borrowed stories from other cultures. The writings were written in ancient time and it was to appease the audience of that era. So where is the book from God for 2013?

My opponent is correct in stating that the bible wasn't written in modern English but allow me to elaborate on this issue. God as my opponent believes it to be is perfect, or at the least his Pope states that God is perfect taken from the Catholic News site. [1] According to Isaiah 40:26 God is very powerful, limitless with everything, including knowledge, but this isn't reflected by the bible because as my opponent admittedly just pointed out, the bible is full of flaws, contradictions, and just plain silly information that some try to use as proof of scientific evidence. Now God is described in several instances in the bible as being the most powerful deity in all of the known universe, is able to create galaxies, stars, planets, and life, but making sure letters on a piece of paper remain perfect is a little too hard of a task to accomplish for him apparently. This is utter failure on a deity that claims to be powerful and perfect. I'm sure my opponent believes that God of the bible can do anything and I'm sure he's aware of the scripture 1 Corinthians 14:33 that plainly states that "God is not a God of disorder", other translations render the word as confusion, the author of confusion, chaotic. Since God is described as not being a God of mystery, how does that add up to the rest of the bible? Are we to believe that God isn't capable of handling something as important as his message to the world? Obviously the bible is the work of primitive men, not of a perfect, powerful God, as my opponent would like to hold out to believe.

My opponent states that "slavery" wasn't as bad as it was in recent memory but he failed to account for the scriptures that I've highlighted. Bible scholars use NRSV translation and consider it the most accurate rendition to the original language used. With that said I will like to highlight the following in the translation recommended by Bible scholars [2]:

" When a slave owner strikes a male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies immediately, the owner shall be punished. But if the slave survives a day or two, there is no punishment; for the slave is the owner's property." -Exodus 21:20-21 NRSV , tell me where was the translation lost or misunderstood here?

Also you feel that the Hebrews that were slaves were given good homes with food etc. Well this is true they were but the situation, as just mentioned, was far from good. Hebrews were only allowed to keep a Hebrew slave for only 7 years and then set them free, but there was a loop whole that God supposedly missed.

"If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years. But in the seventh year, he shall go free, without paying anything. If he comes alone, he is to go free alone; but if he has a wife when he comes, she is to go with him. If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the woman and her children shall belong to her master, and only the man shall go free. But if the servant declares, "I love my master and my wife and children and do not want to go free," then his master must take him before the judges. He shall take him to the door or the doorpost and pierce his ear with an awl. Then he will be his servant for life." - Exodus 21:2-6 If a Israeli slave became a great worker to the slave owner, and if the slave owner notices the value of keeping him, what do you think he would have done to keep the Hebrew, to which he's only supposed to keep for 7 years? Yes, the bible is indeed written by primitive, greedy, jealous, desert men who gave the God excuse as a way to rationalize their actions.

This policy didn't apply to gentile nations or alien resident living among them, so where's the good for them?

Con stated: "The father had to hook his daughter up with a man who he saw fit for her. it was customary then, and still is in the middle east and parts of Asia." This is true, people in the middle east countries do in fact marry off their daughters to men that either pay for them outright or are arranged to get married so that the family can get out of poverty or inherit riches. Now do you know the ages that are allowed? There is no limit! Girls as young as 10 are married off to men that are much older then them, and in some sad occasions deflower her before they even hit the age of puberty. Are we to take your word in believing that this wasn't done in ancient times? When much of the culture in that part of the world have been virtually the same since those passages have been written! Understand that this type of behavior is inexcusable, wrong, and plain evil. For God to allow this, condone it, is utterly evil of him to not stop it. There is no written law in the bible stating that there is a certain age to where men are able to marry girls. With this type of culture being accepted, you have consequences like that which happened recently in Yemen [3]. There's no underlying message here, no metaphor to accept, this type of behavior is dangerous and evil.

The scriptures that I've highlighted is only a small portion to a greater issue with what the bible teaches. The scriptures that you highlighted, I will like to address:

John 3:16 - God forbids human sacrifices (Deuteronomy 18:10), but makes one exception.
Jeremiah 29:11 - God states that he is able to see the future, know their events, but forgot that this age we were going to test his word and find it full of error, could have done a better job at keeping an eye on his book, which I would think a powerful deity should be able to do.
Rom 8:28 - Israelis loved him in ancient times so much so that they lovingly beat their slaves (servants, workers etc.), killed mercilessly villages and nations, but kept those "virgins" for themselves as "wives" etc.
Prov. 3:5 - What's the difference between that and someone who believes in Krishna from the Hindu religion?
Prov. 3:6 - Ditto
Rom 12:2 - Isn't that what we atheists are doing? Yet, we're finding more evil than good.
Phil 4:6 - This didn't do much with stopping Hurricane Katrina or the December 2004 Tsunami disaster, etc. Useless advice in my opinion.
Matt 28:19 - I did this for 21 years and I felt terrible after I've left realizing I just added false hope to those that sincerely want to make a difference in their lives. Not a good one in my opinion.
Eph 2:8 - By the grace and strength of Hercules, the people of Greece were saved, and he was a gift from Zeus.
Gal. 5:22 - Wrong. The fruit of the spirit (God) isn't any of those things when you amount to everything else in the Bible that he condoned, ordered, and carried out himself.
Rom. 12:1 - The advice here isn't really clear, considering the Bible isn't consistent, as you admitted in the beginning of your rebuttal, because according to your understanding, why not take advice from other holy books that provide some measure of good morality, and ignore the bad?
John 10:10 - I understand the thief, but the life part isn't clear so it's not good advice, but it's not "evil" I'll give you that
Acts 18:10 - This is a big fat utter lie. Almost everyone has the same odds of being in danger or out of danger period.
Acts 18:11 - Talking and answering yourself is border line insanity
Gal 2:20 - No advice just complete confusion and contradiction (Hosea 6:6)
1 John 1:9 - Nothing what a psychiatrist can't do to rehabilitate someone
Rom 3:23 - So already I'm a worthless human being, nice one!
John 14:6 - Not relevant to anything
Matt 28:20 - This is interesting. You mentioned that those "Old Testament" laws, principles, are to be ignored because it was just for that time only? (Matthew 5:18-19 RSV) [heaven and earth are still here]
Rom 5:8 - He demonstrated his "love" numerous times and they weren't pretty. Sacrificing a human is love?

The rest of the scriptures that you highlight are either irrelevant to our modern day society, completely obscure, and repeated. Not sure if those scripture cover up the atrocities, horrors, grotesque behaviors, unnecessary deaths, silly concepts, and just plain wrong passages that are recorded throughout. My opponent failed to provide a good reason why we should believe in the God of the bible and to understand that he's not evil. What my opponent has done is reaffirm that the Bible is a book created by desert men who were jealous, sexist, greedy, evil, and had little to no understanding of the natural world around them.

Just because the bible provides some good morals, it doesn't excuse the errors and evils throughout. Tell me, if someone gave you a glass of water, with only 60% of it being poison, will you still consider it a clean glass of water?

Look forward to your next response...



1) Pro asked: "So where is the book from God for 2013?" This is a great question pro! The Catechism of the Catholic Faith takes more modern approach at interpreting god's word. Pope John Paul II endorsed it and it was published in 2005.

2) God gave the word to prophets who were not perfect or all-knowing. Therefore, their "ungodly" nature overrides God's all powerful reign through the virtue of free will.

3) "Tell me where was the translation lost or misunderstood here?" Ugh. Please understand this time. It was a different culture. For example, currently zoophilia is looked down upon by society. However, in 2000 years it may not be. if you can predict the cultural guidelines for 4013, please let me know and I will alert the pope...

4) This is a good point. I consulted my theology teacher for this one. According to her, some ancient nations planned to use the bible as a basis of their law. Because of this, the bible was changed by some writers to fit their laws. Again, this can fit with my argument for #3

5) " Now do you know the ages that are allowed? There is no limit! Girls as young as 10 are married off to men that are much older then them, and in some sad occasions deflower her before they even hit the age of puberty. Are we to take your word in believing that this wasn't done in ancient times? When much of the culture in that part of the world have been virtually the same since those passages have been written! Understand that this type of behavior is inexcusable, wrong, and plain evil. " I am not going to defend this behavior. However, God has given us free will as a gift. Otherwise we would be forced to live a life as puppets. I am sure God does not want rape to happen.


John 3:16 - try and understand and be open to the catholic faith. Then think again. Jesus died on the cross to save us from original sin. That is our belief. Besides, he rose from the dead three days later.
Jeremiah 29:11 -I'm sorry, but when you can see into the future and not capitalize every mistake in the bible let the world know.
Rom 8:28 - Israelis did not beat people out of love for god.
Prov. 3:5 - The idea is to rely on god when our own understanding is in lack of knowledge.
Prov. 3:6 - Ditto
Rom 12:2 -no, you are finding all the evil while I can only try to represent a fraction of the good within scripture.
Phil 4:6 - Again, we grew closer after these things.

and so on and so on. It's basically the same argument.

7) Bad passages are not recorded throughout. You just pointed out the worst ones. Most of the bible teaches common morality.

8) This metaphor is stupid on many levels.

a. Basic scientific principles state that the poison would be spread throughout.
b. Reading doesn't kill.
c. 60% of the bible isn't bad. You made this up in a feeble attempt to look smart.
d. I offer my own statement: life isn't perfect. It has its highs and lows. Would commit suicide because there are some lows mixed in with all the highs?
e. A very wise person once said, "It is a good thing not everything is perfect. That would make things seem like normal because there is no comparison."
Debate Round No. 4


I will like to respond to the points he has given by just identifying the numbers instead of writing out the entire sentence so that I can save space and time.

1.) Free will is a poor excuse to use when trying defend God for allowing men to corrupt his word so badly. You agree that the universe was created by this being correct? You believe that everything on this earth, including man, was created by God, correct? If God, as I've mentioned before (Isaiah 40:26) has unlimited power in reality the bible should be reflected of that, wouldn't you not agree? This all powerful deity who is able to create powerful things such as the sun, but can't make his book be completely awe inspiring to the point where there's no question it came from him, is inconsistent with the belief that he's all-powerful, all-knowledgeable, and perfect. It simply doesn't make sense that he wasn't able to keep something that simple perfect.

2.) Even though the men were jealous, sexist, greedy, and racist men, that should even put into question as to why would God allow them to be the writers of the most important message that God is supposed to bestow among mankind.

3.) The example, even though appalling, isn't by definition hurting anyone, not even the animal, so this doesn't match up to the actual harm it is to a fellow human being who is treated as property. We've grown as a society this is true to understand what we know is harmful and in this case we understand the devalue of owning someone as property, how it can affect the individual who is mistreated both physically and mentally. Condoning the act of beating their slave almost to the point of their death yet not be held accountable for it is wrong in all accounts. Doing bodily harm to a fellow human is wrong and then passing them around as property is dehumanizing. For a deity that claims to be all-knowing and loving yet wasn't able to provide a simplistic principle to his supposed chosen people on how to treat their fellow man is inexcusable.

* To debate on the issue of Free Will alone is a different debate entirely but I will leave a link that you can consider in reading to understand the philosophical argument against the supposed "free will". I will say this much, even if God does exist, especially the Judeo-Christian God, we in fact do not have free will seeing that the actions we do take have consequences or rewards under his rule. If he doesn't exist, than we are accountable only to ourselves and those to whom we live around with. We have true freedom in this case to what we want, but those decisions we can decide as a whole society as to what we deem to be good or evil based on trial and error and of course science and logic. * [A]

4.) Again, for God to allow his book to be changeable, allow humanity to ignore certain parts, keep certain parts, and then remove certain parts to fit the times, says a lot about the God who is incomplete. It seems we are going in a circle argument regarding the bible's usage. To put it simply I've taken a quote from a fellow atheist who said: "The bible is like a rose growing in manure, some stuff is pretty and nice, but most of it is surrounded by a pile of sh**." That should some up why I feel that the bible is not from a powerful deity but simply men who didn't understand the natural world around them and needed something to use as a basis in order to control the masses.

5.) I'm grateful that you didn't defend this or excuse this and understand this type of culture is the same that was practiced in ancient Israel. We don't need to go into the details again but again as mentioned my opponent isn't able to explain why God who is all-knowing, powerful beyond compare, wasn't able to guide his creation to understand simple things like the dangers of engaging sex with a minor, beating people, killing babies, destroying entire villages, but keep the virgin women as wives, as though they went willingly into the arms of their conquerors.

6.) I'm not going to go through the scriptures you've highlighted but I will like to inform my opponent, tell me taking some good suggestions from the bible and ignore the bad, different from doing the same with the following holy books: The Quran, Bhagavad Gita, Tao Te Ching, Dianetics, Adi Granth, and Vedas just to cover a few out there. These holy book indeed have some very evil passages but they do have some good which begs the question should we do the same with them?

7.) Now it's my turn to show a few more passages, even though there are numerous more evil scriptures throughout the bible I won't be able to cover all of them, but I'll provide the following sites that you can visit, and read all of them. [1] and [2]

Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT - Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests
Exodus 22:17 NAB - Kill witches. So Harry Potter magic exists?
Leviticus 20:27 NAB - Kill fortune tellers. Even though they have been proven to be fakes by organizations like James Randi Foundation, killing them is a little too much punishment wouldn't you think so?
Exodus 21:15 NAB - Death for hitting dad
Leviticus 21:9 NAB - Death for fornication
Nahum 2:2-10 NLT - Pillage and Plunder, ordered by God
Zephaniah 1:7:18 NLT - God's Human Slaughter Fest
James 5:14-15 ASV - Prayer, not proper medical attention, cures sickness?
Judges 1:21-35 NLT - Murder and Slavery
Judges 5:30-31 NAB - Rape and the Spoils of War
Judith 9:3-4 NAB - God helped Murder, Plunder, and Slavery
Romans 1:24-32 NLT - Infidels and Gays Should Die
Numbers 16:27-35 NLT - God Kills Women and Children
Ezekiel 26:7-14 NLT - City of Tyre is still in existence

* I'll stop here because I don't want to take up too much of space on this round seeing we're limited on how many words that we can use.

8.) My opponent may seem that this metaphor is nonsensical but I've mentioned before that my opponent is only concentrating on the good of the passages that are contained in the bible, to which I'm not denying that there are, but that doesn't negate the issue that God of the bible is indeed evil. Just like the other holy books that are available contain some good points to consider, reading them shouldn't make us jump to the conclusion that those gods aren't evil, twisted, and demented. Case in point even the comic book of Spider-man, Uncle Ben gave a great point about power, but should we be quick to believe that there's a teenager with a mutated gene that allows him to have abilities of a spider and swinging around Manhattan?

My opponent is simply defending a deity that is down right evil, he even states that he creates evil - Isaiah 45:7

My opponent's quote regarding perfection is truly correct, but that doesn't explain away as to why God who is described as being perfect and powerful could not keep the most important thing consistent and inexcusable. As an illustration, an old Kenyan woman sends an email to her family in California. They receive it, there is no lost in translation, they aren't having a hard time understanding her message, it plainly says "I love you and miss you" in their language. If an 80 year woman can do this electronically, how difficult is it for the supposed powerful God you worship?



Rebuttals corresponding by number:

1) The bible was inspired by the word of God. The bible is far from simple. It is the single most studied book in all of mankind. It was compiled after 200 years into a single dialect, not to mention the other 1000 years it took to translate it to hundreds of other languages. God did not write the bible; prophets did. People made mistakes. God did not. Implying that god made us inadequate to write his book is implying that he failed to make us perfect. Are you saying he failed to make us Gods?

2) Ditto

3) Again I say that many of these scriptures were written 2000 years ago.

4) I will use this to insult you: you ignorant, insensitive, crazy little bastard. Just because you don't like Catholicism doesn't mean you should insult it like that. Catholics don't say that about atheism. Even if it isn't your quote, you repeated it on the Internet. I am deeply sorry for how stupid and arrogant you are.

5) Yes I have. You just denoted it. I repeat. FREE WILL!

6) If that is what you believe, then yes. follow your own religion.

7) You greatly paraphrased these. These are not the passages. This is inadequate information and I will not rebut it directly.

8) for someone who is an atheist, you sure seem to believe in God. You just think that he is evil. Also, your sources seem very biased.

I overall hated this debate because my opponent did not understand the Catholic religion. He also failed to read and I had to repeatedly restate things. He was very insensitive to my faith and the faith of others because of his non-belief.

Vote for me please...
Debate Round No. 5
35 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by SimpleObserverofThings 3 years ago
Since it was too late before I realized that the debate was over for me, I'll provide my conclusion here. Michaeltaffe3's were poor at best in this debate, his arguments clearly stemmed from emotional arguments and illogical fallacies. He never answered the questions directly, instead he answered them indirectly, and in some he used his rude demeanor to defend the accusations. He also continued using circular reasoning, stating "well the prophets were not perfect so God couldn't help them". This is a poor excuse by definition seeing that he is discounting the rebuttals I'm made in where the bible teaches quite the opposite. I do not believe in god of the bible or of any so-called holy books because I understand they are plainly man made, as my opponent admitted on around 3 regarding the bible, yet continued to defend it as the only book to consider, when I provided others that millions of people believe to be the word of god. This debate plainly showed that he didn't have extensive knowledge regarding the topic and used argument reasoning as his basis for his rebuttals, and blatantly ignored mine just by calling me uneducated when in fact he's shown in this debate that he is giving out what he has been spoon fed from Catholicism. We atheists aren't that naive that we allow ourselves to be easily deceived by those that claim to the by the direct line of god when their actions prove otherwise for one and second defend a book that even though has been widely used is full nonsensical knowledge, not to mention down right evil things. In conclusion I propose that you vote pro seeing that I adequately provided information, provided great points to consider that were ignored or scuffed away, and kept pointing to the bible while my opponent made excuses for it that obviously doesn't fall in line with what the bible really teaches.
Posted by Sagey 3 years ago
Yes, after studying Religion, inside and outside, I realized that I was at my happiest as an Atheist 10 year old, reading Science Books and Encyclopedias and playing sports.
So that is what I returned to as an adult, studying Science and gaining Knowledge as an Atheist who does not fear death nor Evil. Death is just the end, no ifs buts nor maybes, just nothing, no pain, no anything, so there is nothing to fear.
Evil is only a property of the brain.
Physically, Evil does not exist, the people who are being considered as Evil are only psychopaths, who in many cases can be treated.
Evil possession is only a psychological malady, treatable by medication and cognitive psychotherapy.
I too am completely happy in my being simply a product of a completely incredible (unbelievable) coincidence of CHANCE.
My being nothing more than a vulnerable, mass of mostly bacteria cells only makes those billions of neurons in my head more curious about how we evolved the ability to THINK.
Thus I'm a child of scientific curiosity about EVERYTHING.
Life and the wondrous planet we managed to arrive on, hold me in such AWE that I cannot ever get tired of Learning about it.
I will be striving to find out more, even at the moment I die.
Life cannot ever be dull and meaningless for this Atheist.
Posted by SimpleObserverofThings 3 years ago
But I am more happy now than ever before and I enjoy life so much more because I understand how lucky we are to even exist, as you pointed out.
Posted by SimpleObserverofThings 3 years ago
I concur Sagey, it seems the more heavily involved someone is in a particular theology, the harder it becomes for them to be rational. Aron Ra produced a great lecture that's available on his you tube channel where he explains how he grew up, and how some of his family members refused to know anything about science, they were literally content with the myths that they grew up to believe in. Even with plain facts presented to them, they refused, and this made Aron Ra to finally find out for himself the facts. This is true with me, I've confronted my mother one day, talked about Noah's flood, describe how absurd it is, and all she can muster up was "I just got believe that God did it somehow." I've chosen to allow my parents to continue to believe what they are believing because it will literally kill them if they knew what they were believing in were lies and false hopes. For one my grandmother passed a few years back and my mom believes that she will see her alive and well one day, and the same goes for my father, and to take that away from them will be the death of them both. This is why I do what I do now, I try to help people come to the facts slowly because I know from my own experience it's not easy, it's a really hard pill to swallow so to speak.
Posted by Sagey 3 years ago
So True Observer, Hitler read a little of some offshoots from Evolutionary science, not Darwin, because Darwin had no knowledge of genetics. Hitler got it all wrong, because he was reading it with an Irrational Brain. Same as jaserelijah reads everything with an Irrational brain, thus her concepts are twice as Irrational as the original. It's simply the extremely naive leading the even more naive.
Though on the odds of being born who we are.
If my mother decided she had a headache and delayed sex for more than half an hour, the sperm that created me would have become less agile (tired) and another sperm would have made it into the ovum (egg) and I would have been replaced by another, it simply would not be me.
Again, multiply this by the same chance for every single ancestor since our nocturnal insectivore, shrew like mammalian ancestors then that gives you added odds against us being here as who we are.
Yes, just a headache or not now love, I'm busy from any of our ancestors and we would simply not exist.
Scary and at the same time immensely amazing that we ever got here as us.
We are a combination of those two gametes, change either the sperm or the egg and we would not exist as we do. Our replacement could have been the opposite gender, different features and more or less intelligent.
But that wouldn't change our ability to think rationally.
Only an open mind and a good education with lots of exercises in rationalizing can achieve that.
Religion and an education in Theology only teaches Irrational thinking so there is no hope for such people in the real world, they are almost unemployable.
It's almost impossible to think of anything useful that jaserelijah would be capable of doing properly (rationally), because from all the posts she has made so far, she is completely incapable of rational thought. Her own debates are an excellent example of this.
Posted by SimpleObserverofThings 3 years ago
Since Jaserelijah, you're stuck on the idea that Darwin is connected to Nazi (guessing because you watched the awful documentary "Expelled") I suggest you watch this short ten minute video of how wrong you are:

Posted by Sagey 3 years ago
Well: I don't have faith in anything other than I am breathing and will likely go to sleep soon.
That is why I'm an Atheist, because I have no concept of anything influencing nor controlling me.
I'm a totally free thinker, no subservience to anything and the only controlling influence is my dedication to my business clients.
Though if a client causes me hassles, I simply drop them and look for better clients.
One of the benefits of being self-employed,
Nobody above me to answer to. No boss, nor God.
The only body that I have to answer to is the Taxation agents.
My only belief system is that if I am a good person, look after my friends, family and clients, I will do alright.
I certainly don't want an afterlife, nor any glory.
I'm quite happy with life and death.
If I die tomorrow, I would only miss out on possible future achievements.
So What!
I won life's greatest lottery. Being born in the first place, which has greater odds against it happening than all the starts in all the universes combined.
Just having the correct sperm entering the correct egg is a 10,000:1 chance, multiply this by all the generations of ancestors, plus the odds that they met, had sex, even lived long enough to have children.
My grandfather was shot in the war and would have been bayoneted if he coughed or sneezed, and then got wounded by a grenade to only become friends with the enemy that would have killed him had he sneezed as they both lay wounded together. Yes, the high chance of his being killed and me not being here at all, and you reading my posts means.
Posted by SimpleObserverofThings 3 years ago
"I don't have enough faith to be an atheist" is a bad attempt to prove a negative and disprove a positive. Here's the link to the debate where Christopher Hitchens exposed Frank Turek's book for what it is. The problem here is that the deist (like you) errors in thinking that in discarding a god, one needs do so by having faith in something else. When I stopped believing in Santa as a child, I simply came to the conclusion that this entity did not exist because there was no evidence to the contrary (yet a firm believer can make excuses for his existence). This is despite the fact that his image was everywhere during xmas season and many people continued to behave as if he were real. Therefor, I submit that I do not believe in a god that created the universe the same way I don't believe in an elf that work for a fat man in the north pole. Consequently, disbelief in this case is an act of reason, not faith. Being an atheist does not require any faith, because it is impossible to 'believe' in nothing. When we are born, our minds are a blank slate. This state requires no effort to be in. The concept of god(s) are added later, at which point you require faith to take you away from your initial position of intellectual rest. Believing in something requires faith, not believing in something requires nothing, now can we move on to the next argument please?
Posted by SimpleObserverofThings 3 years ago
I'm not going to repeat what Sagey stated regarding Hitler and I'm not going to repeat myself regarding Stalin and others who were lunatics with power. Now you're going into the debate about eugenics and how this is prove of atheism at it's worse. Again, atheism is the absence of the belief of any deity or deities, that's it. Hitler and others like him weren't sane individuals, yes they had a measure of intelligence, but bottom line they were "loonies" at best. What made them worse was that they had the power to carry out their insane ideologies which resulted in mass genocide. Since you like to make comparisons, here's mine, Israelites were instructed to rid of the entire nation of Canaan, men, women, child, baby, live stock, except, you guessed it, "virgin" women. What a swell God huh?! Keeping those untouched women for the men of Israel! Next, he informs them that they are his "chosen people" and that they are to rid of enemy nations that are against their God and enslave others as they please but to not do the same toward each other, but if one of the Hebrew men needs money, you can enslave them for 7 years but set him free afterward, but the Hebrew women, you can keep forever as a slave. You can beat them as hard as you like but if you kill them I will hold you responsible. Now if they did this back in 1940s they would be in the same line as the Nazis, correct? If the Nazis instead of the Israelites were recorded in the bible who claimed to be doing the will of God, how would you have been able to tell the difference? How would you know that they were indeed ordained by God or if it was the work of lunatics? You wouldn't be able to tell the difference and you would still be using the same excuse about it's all about faith.
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