The Instigator
zeromeansnothing
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
Stupidape
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

God should be a ' free concert '. Why the charge?

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 7/9/2016 Category: Religion
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 366 times Debate No: 93520
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (2)
Votes (0)

 

zeromeansnothing

Pro

Why is access to God being managed and controlled by religious 'goons'.
Why have they set up camp at the river crossings?

Jesus apparently hated these guys.


“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to'

“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are.'........................


So therefore, why the rules, why the laws, why the protocol, why the cost, why the recriminations, why they..............

Talking to God is simple, because apparently 'Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.'

This is like bottling water. Why do it?
Stupidape

Con

Outline

I. Intro
II. Religions are similiar to corporations
III. Holy people have basic needs too
IV. Source


I. Intro


If anyone takes offense at the below, remember most people are against 99% of religions. Most popular faiths require you to reject all the other faiths. I'm going to take a capitalistic point of view. I see religion as a corporation. Just like corporations often give glorious and beautiful mission statements, yet really they need to make a certain amount of money to break even, and their goal is often to maximize profit.


II. Religions are similiar to corporations

First, and foremost religious structures cost space and maintenance. Just like a corporation, if a religious operation isn't making enough money, its often shut down. The employees, clergy of some form, are then transferred to the new corporate branch. Would you want a building that is all maintenance and doesn't bring in enough cash? So, why should a religion be any different than a corporation?

As for bottled water, the bottle cost to manufacture in raw materials, you have to pay employees, taxes, construction cost for water bottle factory, maintenance costs for the building and machines, transportation costs to ship the water, and of finally the cost to pump the water out of the ground or lake into the bottle. Moreover, bottled water is a valuable service provided during diasters.

This may seem callous, but remember holy men and woman need to eat, drink, sleep, shelter, and all the other needs a normal person has. So, yes of course admission should have a monetary price. After all we do live in a material world, whether we want to or not.

III. Holy people have basic needs too

"Hunger is a term which has three meanings (Oxford English Dictionary 1971)

the uneasy or painful sensation caused by want of food; craving appetite. Also the exhausted condition caused by want of food
the want or scarcity of food in a country
a strong desire or craving" [1]

We live in aworld where hunger is real, a person can die from thirst, and shelter is needed to protect one from the elements and bugs. Would you deny your beloved holy people their basic needs? Nay, I say, charge admission so that your holy people can be properly cared for. Thank you for your time and energy reading. Good luck to my opponent.

IV. Source

1. http://www.worldhunger.org...
Debate Round No. 1
zeromeansnothing

Pro

Thank you Stupidape, for accepting this debate. You probably need to engage more with the central theme of my question if we are to make progress. We all know how a charitable organization works, or a sports club for that matter. Infrastructure and staff require funding and donations, no problem there.
A corporation, on the other hand, actively chases revenue to increase its influence. It attempts to expand for the collective benefit of its members and as such it is competitive and invasive to its competitors. This is an unfortunate analogy for your argument as this is exactly what religion does. Listen to Wix, on this.........................

'Islamic religious leaders have traditionally been people who, as part of the clerisy, mosque, or government, performed a prominent role within their community or nation.'

It has always been difficult to distinguish where the Power of the Catholic Pope starts and where the rump of European leadership takes over. It has been the same for the Church of England for centuries.

This centralized 'power' hierarchical position is contrasted with that of modern Judaism, Again Wik,...............

'Decline of rabbinical influence

With the growth of the Renaissance and the development of the secular modern world, and as Jews were welcomed into non-Jewish society particularly during the times ofNapoleon in the 18th and 19th centuries, Jews began to leave the Jewish ghettos in Europe, and simultaneously rejected the traditional roles of the rabbis as communal and religious leaders. New leaders such as Israel Jacobson, father of the German Reform Judaism movement, launched an egalitarian, modernist stance that challenged the Orthodoxy. The resulting fractures in Jewish society has translated into a situation whereby there is no single religious governing body for the entire Jewish community at the present time.'



Islam and Christianity are huge corporations that operate in very inefficient and cumbersome ways. Their administrations are unionized by dogmatic conformity and this inability to change has resulted in them being real road blocks against any form of enlightened renewal or regeneration. Their dogma stances are enshrined within corporate protocol, that leaves it effectively written in stone. They are the custodians of what was and they have made it what is.

Access to the Jesus teachings is being guarded by this 'Christ' thingy. Access to the more enlightened aspects of Islam are protected by a minefield of fear. These monolithic monsters are wells of fresh water surrounded by a barbed wire fence Gaps in the wire are manned by men in dresses carrying small dirty cups and an 'offertory box' to scam the hungry and the thirsty from their hope. IMHO

If Coca-Cola, were money grabbing corporate monsters with a world agenda to sell tooth paste and dentures (God forbid), would this deception alarm you? What is religion selling and why? It is not selling anything that is worthwhile. It is selling deception. They create cravings that will never be satisfied but which will always require product and attention.

If you want a place in Paradise with your relatives forever, then come to me.
If you want to know God then come to me.
If you want to be part of the establishment then come to me.
If you do not want to burn forever in Hell then come to me and I will fix it.
If you want your child to have the protection of Babtism, then come to me.
If.....................................
........................
..................................Amen

Stupidape

Con

Outline

I. Intro
II. People have needs
III. Libraries have upkeep
IV. Location, location, location
V. Conclusion
VI. Sources

I. Intro

My opponent and I do agree on many concepts. Yet, the internet wasn't around always. The internet was devloped around the 1980-1990s "The World Wide Web

Cerf’s protocol transformed the Internet into a worldwide network. Throughout the 1980s, researchers and scientists used it to send files and data from one computer to another. However, in 1991 the Internet changed again. " [2] A lot of this free access concept came around with the internet and Napster. "In the year 2000, a new company called Napster created something of a music-fan’s utopia—a world in which nearly every song ever recorded was instantly available on your home computer—for free."[3]

That being said with the invention of the Internet and Napster the cost of information decreased considerably. Even with reduced cost there still is a cost. For this information to be transferred servers, power companies, power supply companies, if the sermon is done online somebody needs to hold a camera, and so forth.

II. People have needs

Let's say instead of a religious building, you had a clergy member read online to an audience via video camcorder. That person would still have basic needs.

III. Libraries have upkeep

Think of public libraries. It is not the same going in person to a library versus the internet. There is something about face to face communication. Libraries require mantience, yet I don't see anyone going after them.

IV. Location, location, location

Not everyone is literate or has access to the internet. By building religious structures, a religion can come to the people. Prime real estate comes at a premium.

V. Conclusion

In conclusion for a religion to survive and reach the poor and uneducated it must make a physical presence that requires maintenance, employees, and salespersons. Also known as temples, clergy, and missionaries. Thanks for your time.

VI. Sources
2. http://www.history.com...
3. http://www.history.com...
Debate Round No. 2
zeromeansnothing

Pro

These huge religions are global corporations.
Their dogma prompts them to expand and to colonize.
They sell their own specific flavour of God for power and influence.
They are hostile and combative to their adversaries to a point of Crusade or Jihad.
They are above all 'secular' in nature and more concerned in their own interests than being messengers of a God that they clearly know nothing about.

You make a very weak argument against me here, Con, but I thank you nevertheless. It is impossible to defend the indefensible.
Stupidape

Con

Care to explain which definition of "secular" you use. I'm looking at the dictionary and there are so many variants I can only guess. [4]

I'm a huge fan of capitalism. As I see it religions are just another business selling virtual reality to people like World of Warcraft, movies, video games, and stage magicians. People want to be fooled and religious establishments provide that valuable service. Think of the movie the Prestige. [5] What your suggesting is communism, that religion should be given away freely. Without the profit motive, people become lazy. Think of how well Russia worked with the government running everything.

4. http://www.thefreedictionary.com...
5. http://www.imdb.com...
Debate Round No. 3
zeromeansnothing

Pro

Con question 'Care to explain which definition of "secular" you use'

There is an easy answer here, non-God, non-spiritual, ie of this earth, worldly, Again, 'not connected with religious or spiritual matters', ie a Wall Mart selling junk.


Con states: 'As I see it religions are just another business selling virtual reality'


You therefore agree with me, I liken it to a Bookmakers Shop, ie a shop with empty shelves, selling smoke.

In one respect I could agree with you and say that they should charge gullible people 'through the nose' for their engagement with these amuzement arcades but on the other hand the cynicism and hurt involved leaves me quite upset. Nobody buys tickets for 'seal clubbing'.

God disappears in all this, as does environmental awareness and respect. You are correct to regard this as a capitalistic venture that degrades everything before it. It is a pity that we are in fundamental agreement here as it mitigates against a spirited engagement of wills. Thanks anyway, the ball is back in your court and it's match point.
Stupidape

Con

"say that they should charge gullible people 'through the nose' for their engagement with these amuzement arcades" zeromeansnothing

This is my point of view for how else will the corporate executives line their pockets? "Catholic priests are expected to make a vow of poverty, so it is ironic that the church is actually the richest religion in the world. The Catholic Church owns some of the greatest art works ever made. It also has vast gold deposits and billions of dollars in assets. It also earns a significant amount of income from the tourism sector as the Vatican is considered an independent city-state. It also has more than a billion members around the world." [6]

"T.D. Jakes

Jakes is the pastor of The Potter"s House and creator of MegaFest. The church has 30,000 members and Jakes" sermons are viewed nationwide. He has published dozens of books and produced or appeared in six films. Jake is worth $18 million and owns two mansions." [7]

Who are we to judge these people? How is this any different than factory farming and human washing? [8] I think a capitalist/democratic society has many flaws, but its the best that we have. Look how well the Soviet Union performed. [9] I am a dyed in the wool capitalist and see the idea of making religion free as a socialist/communist value. A system that has been proven not to work.

The quote "There"s a Sucker Born Every Minute" comes to mind.

"P.T. Barnum? Hungry Joe Lewis? Artemus Ward? Mike McDonald? Apocryphal? Anonymous?" [9]

If the masses want to fool themselves, who are we to stop them? What gives us the right to intervene? I say keep religion the way it is, with the gates barred with a donation tray. Thanks for the debate.

6. http://www.therichest.com...
7. http://rollingout.com...
8. http://freefromharm.org...
9. http://quoteinvestigator.com...
Debate Round No. 4
zeromeansnothing

Pro

Thank You too, stupidape, let us disagree to agree on this.

I'm off to 'fresh woods and pastures new'
Stupidape

Con

Good debate.
Debate Round No. 5
2 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Posted by lord_megatron 1 year ago
lord_megatron
Its the reason why I became atheist. Why can't I have my own interpretation of religion? Why can't I believe in Primus and the 13 primes as true gods? Tell me one logical reason that one of the popular gods (jesus, allah etc.) is more likely the creator of the universe than Primus
Posted by TheBenC 1 year ago
TheBenC
I agree. I dislike everything about people making profits with religion. I would not buy a religious book, CD or anything else. If a preacher/pastor/whatever got rich from God, he is a dick and is obviously abusing his flock.
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