The Instigator
CapAhab
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
iTruthSeeker
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

God would not put your sin on Jesus.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 2/1/2016 Category: Religion
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 502 times Debate No: 85885
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (5)
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CapAhab

Pro

Round 1 - Acceptance, Opening Statements, and Questions Only
Round 2 - Opening Arguments Only (No rebuttals)
Round 3 - Rebuttals Only
Round 4 - Counter-Rebuttals
Round 5 - Closing Arguments and Closing Statements

I will have to prove G-d would not prove that Jesus dying for your sins is unbiblical. Hebrew Scriptures (old testament) are the only authoritative scriptures. New testament can be use, but is not consider authoritative to prove the claims of the New Testament.

I would be unjust for G-d to put your sins on Jesus.

Jesus could not have been delivered over to death for our sins

Jesus could not bore our sins.

Serious debates only.
iTruthSeeker

Con

I accept.

It is very biblical in nature that Jesus would atone for the sins of humanity.. Old Testament and New Testament alike

I look forward to this debate

Debate Round No. 1
CapAhab

Pro

I would like to thank my opponent for accepting this debate.

He who justifies the wicked, and he who condemns the righteous, both of them alike are an abomination to Yahweh. Proverbs 17:15

He who justifies the wicked (that's you).
he who condemns the righteous (that's Jesus)
So, G-d will not you because G-d would not commit an abomination.
G-d would not condemn Jesus (the only righteous man as per NT) on the cross for your sin because that also would be an abomination for G-d.

The law says specifically that the one that sin should be put to death and no other.
Deuteronomy 24:16 Parents are not to be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their parents; each will die for their own sin.

This is repeated in the book of Jeremiah
Jeremiah 31:30 say:
"The fathers have eaten sour grapes, And the children"s teeth are set on edge." But every one shall die for his own iniquity; every man who eats the sour grapes, his teeth shall be set on edge.

Ezekiel 14:14 says
even if these three men--Noah, Daniel and Job--were in it, they could save only themselves by their righteousness, declares the Sovereign LORD.

So again, those 3 righteous individuals could only saved themselves because of their own righteousness.

Ezekiel 18:3 says:

As I live," says the Lord God, "you shall no longer use this proverb in Israel.

4 "Behold, all souls are Mine;
The soul of the father
As well as the soul of the son is Mine;
The soul who sins shall die.

Nowhere in the Bible someone else can be punished for somebody else's sins. This is just unbiblical.

So how can someone be considered righteous?

"But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 22 None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live. 23 Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?" says the Lord God, "and not that he should turn from his ways and live? Ezekiel 18:21-23

Thus, by turning from your sins G-d will forgive your sins. G-d would not punish the innocent for you.

Isaiah 1 says:

"Come now, and let us reason together,"
Says the Lord,
"Though your sins are like scarlet,
They shall be as white as snow;
Though they are red like crimson,
They shall be as wool.
If you are willing and obedient,

Isaiah 55:7 says:

Let the wicked forsake his way,
And the unrighteous man his thoughts;
Let him return to the Lord,
And He will have mercy on him;
And to our God,
For He will abundantly pardon.

So if we turn from our wicked ways, G-d will forgive. But G-d will put your sins on Jesus and worshipping Jesus itself is Idolatry (But that's another debate).

Thank you
iTruthSeeker

Con

Greetings! I am very excited to have this debate.. I understand that this is a huge question within the Judeo-Christian community and needs to be properly addressed... That being said, I will begin by stating my opening contentions:

1). The need for "atonement" is required throughout the Old Testament

Now, the word atonement is found multiple times in the Old Testament and the literal definition is at-one-meant: or the state of being reconciled.. Its essentially the way in which God makes sinners "right" in light of our inherit wrongdoing nature (sin). The word Atonement in Hebrew is "Kaphar" meaning "to cover"... The Hebrew meaning of the word "atonement" is God covering up our sin so that we can be "reconciled to him"

Now in the Old Testament, the covering or atonement is achieved by the shedding of an innocent animals blood...

Leviticus 17:11: For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one's life.

Leviticus 1:5-5: He shall lay his hand on the head of the burnt offering, that it may be accepted for him to make atonement on his behalf. 5 He shall slay the young bull before the Lord; and Aaron’s sons the priests shall offer up the blood and sprinkle the blood around on the altar that is at the doorway of the tent of meeting.

GotQuestions relays this process perfectly: God commanded the nation of Israel to perform numerous sacrifices according to certain procedures prescribed by God. First, the animal had to be spotless. Second, the person offering the sacrifice had to identify with the animal. Third, the person offering the animal had to inflict death upon it. When done in faith, this sacrifice provided a temporary covering of sins. Another sacrifice called for on the Day of Atonement, described in Leviticus 16, demonstrates forgiveness and the removal of sin. The high priest was to take two male goats for a sin offering. One of the goats was sacrificed as a sin offering for the people of Israel (Leviticus 16:15), while the other goat was released into the wilderness (Leviticus 16:20-22). The sin offering provided forgiveness, while the other goat provided the removal of sin.

The Old Testament propitiation for sin is the shedding of INNOCENT blood... That is, something that is completely blameless needs to die IN YOUR PLACE so that you can be counted as righteous and "covered up" before a Holy God..

Furthermore.. Jesus (according to biblical doctrine) is the FINAL PROPITIATION for human sin. That is.. He had no sin (2 Corinthians 5:21), He died on the cross (Luke 23:44-46) and rose from the dead (Mark 16) "For this reason he had to be made like them, fully human in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people (Hebrews 2:17).

Jesus therefore, is sent as the final sacrifice for humanity and is the fulfillment of the Old Testament requirement for an atoning sacrifice in that humanity can be made right before God. This is best exemplified with John the Baptist as he states: "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! John 1:29

2). Humans require "atonement" due to the nature of God and sin.

The nature of God according to the entire bible is: Perfectly merciful, loving, just, and holy. Sin then, is essentially "missing" the mark. Humanity fell when Adam and Eve "ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge and evil" and now, humans are born with inherited sin.

A perfectly Just God must punish sin! The definition of justice is: the administering of deserved punishment or reward. IF God did not punish sin.. Then He would not be perfectly just. "The Rock! His work is perfect, For all His ways are just; A God of faithfulness and without injustice, Righteous and upright is He. Deuteronomy 32:4.

God is also Perfectly merciful and loving. He loves humanity and enacted a glorious plan to destroy evil and sin without destroying humans. He does this by atonement... as described above...

Now other religions including some sects of Judaism claim that "being righteous" is the way to "become right" before a Perfectly Holy God... Let me ask, does any of us meet the standard? Will my meticulous study and practice of the Law make me blameless before the Creator?

"For I am the LORD your God. Consecrate yourselves therefore, and be holy, for I am holy. You shall not defile yourselves with any swarming thing that crawls on the ground. For I am the LORD who brought you up out of the land of Egypt to be your God. You shall therefore be holy, for I am holy." Leviticus 11:44-45

"When Abram was ninety-nine years old the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him, ‘I am God Almighty; walk before me, and be blameless,’" Genesis 17:1

"You shall be blameless before the LORD your God," Deuteronomy 18:13

We all know that we can never be perfect based on our own efforts.. "All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags Isaiah 64:6"

Therefore, biblical atonement is the "only way" that one can become righteous.. Through turning from their ways (repentance) and turning back to God in order that He would cover their sin (atonement).

This process allows for God to display both his perfect justice and his mercy. However, the "works based" view of salvation does not account for Gods justice.. IF God just forgives your sin without dispensing justice.. Then He is not just.

Imagine that somebody murders my wife.. After committing the act.. He turns to God and asks for forgiveness. God according to "work based" religions, would just forgive the person and everything would be peaches and cream... Wait.. MY WIFE IS STLL MURDERED! Somebody needs to pay! That payment is exacted in the death of Jesus.. Otherwise, God would not be just in just merely forgiving sin without dispensing justice.

The doctrine of atonement throughout the Old/New Testament is EXTREMELY PREVALENT for humans to be reconciled to God.. Therefore it is necessary that God would put our sins on Jesus.. " for if you do not believe that I am He, you will indeed die in your sins." John 8:24

Now, stepping of my soap box. I look forward to my opponents further response's..


Sources:
1).https://dictionary.reference.com...

2). https://bible.org...

3). http://www.gotquestions.org...


Debate Round No. 2
CapAhab

Pro

My opponent said "The need for "atonement" is required throughout the Old Testament"

According to the book of Hebrews "without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness." Hebrews 9:22. Thus if we believe the New Testament to be inspired, this statement is true. But the New Testament can only be proven true if it is consistent with the Hebrew Bible. And the New Testament can be proven false if it contradicts the Hebrew Bible.

Does the writer of Hebrews take that Bible verse from the Hebrew Bible? Not really. He actually misquoted Leviticus 17:11 "For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one's life." It does not say that blood is mandatory for sin atonement, but the blood is used for atoning for sins.

In fact, if you look at the Verse in context, it does not talk about atonement but about what is forbidden to eat and only talks about the blood of animals. ""I will set my face against any Israelite or any foreigner residing among them who eats blood, and I will cut them off from the people. 11 For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one"s life. Therefore I say to the Israelites, "None of you may eat blood, nor may any foreigner residing among you eat blood."

As Leveticus 17 does not say that blood is required for atonement, but only use for atonement, we only need one instance in the Tanakh (Hebrew Bible) that shows that blood is not required to prove the New Testament wrong.

"But if he is not able to bring two turtledoves or two young pigeons, then he who sinned shall bring for his offering one-tenth of an ephah of fine flour as a sin offering. He shall put no oil on it, nor shall he put frankincense on it, for it is a sin offering. 12 Then he shall bring it to the priest, and the priest shall take his handful of it as a memorial portion, and burn it on the altar according to the offerings made by fire to the Lord. It is a sin offering. 13 The priest shall make atonement for him, for his sin that he has committed in any of these matters; and it shall be forgiven him. The rest shall be the priest"s as a grain offering."" Levticus 5:11-13

So here, plain and simple someone could have bring fine flour and his sins would be atoned.

"Day of Atonement"

It is true that the first goat was used as a sin offering. But consider the second goat. The sins of the people are laid on the second goat and that specific goat shall bear the iniquity of the people. As the book of Hebrew says "But only the high priest entered the inner room, and that only once a year, and never without blood, which he offered for himself and for the sins the people had committed in ignorance." So the first goat, could be interpreted as being killed and sacrifice for purification of the Holy Place and for the unintentional sins of the people

20 "And when he has made an end of atoning for the Holy Place, the tabernacle of meeting, and the altar, he shall bring the live goat. 21 Aaron shall lay both his hands on the head of the live goat, confess over it all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions, concerning all their sins, putting them on the head of the goat, and shall send it away into the wilderness by the hand of a suitable man. 22 The goat shall bear on itself all their iniquities to an uninhabited land; and he shall release the goat in the wilderness.

And as for the second goat, he carries the intentional sins of the people in the wilderness without shedding blood. Furthermore Daniel, who was considered righteous never offer any Yom Kippur offering and thus was consider righteous without blood and without the Day of atonement sacrifice.

"Jesus is the fulfillment of the Old Testament requirement for an atoning sacrifice"
Jesus was not mandate in the Law and is an improper sacrifice.
Finally, I would like to add that only animal that were sacrificed on the altar according to what G-d ordained can be used for atonement for sins. Jesus blood could not in any way be used for atonement. Leviticus 17, the same chapter that says that blood is used for atonement also say: ""Whatever man of the house of Israel, or of the strangers who dwell among you, who offers a burnt offering or sacrifice, 9 and does not bring it to the door of the tabernacle of meeting, to offer it to the Lord, that man shall be cut off from among his people."

Jesus was killed at Golgotha as the writer of Hebrews say "And so Jesus also suffered outside the city gate to make the people holy through his own blood."

This contradict the requirements of G-d for Sacrifices, so Jesus "sacrifice" was in no way useful for remission of sin.

"Be strong and very courageous. Be careful to obey all the law my servant Moses gave you; do not turn from it to the right or to the left, that you may be successful wherever you go." Joshua 1:7
Remember what happened to Aaron's son who did not follow what G-d told them. What would G-d ask us to trust in a sacrifice that was not mandate by Him in His words.

Humans require "atonement" due to the nature of God and sin.
This is a nice philosophy... But this is not what the Bible teaches.

I would like to turn our attention to Daniel. Daniel was Righteous as per Ezekiel 14:14 "Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, said the Lord GOD." But, the problem is, Daniel never brought sin offerings to G-d. The Temple was destroyed when Daniel was still a child or youth. And since, no blood was shed how could he have been considered righteous. My opponent will tell you that Jesus blood covered his sins, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished. But this is not what the Hebrew Bible teaches. In fact, the Bible teaches that no Blood is needed. In the time of Ezekiel and Daniel, the Jewish People did not have a Temple, nevertheless, Ezekiel told them how to be righteous.

Ezekiel 18 says ""Behold, all souls are Mine; The soul of the father As well as the soul of the son is Mine; The soul who sins shall die."

If we use this very verse, we can learn two things. First, the person that sins shall die. Second, someone else cannot pay the price for your sins. Thus Jesus blood is of no use for you.

For the first problem, we can find out how to be consider just before G-d by continuing reading Ezekiel 18

"21 But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 22 None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live. 23 Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?" says the Lord God, "and not that he should turn from his ways and live?"

Again, no atonement was required. But my opponent will tell you that G-d would not be right to forgive sins like that. That G-d would not be just to do so...

"25 Yet you say, "The way of the Lord is not fair." Hear now, O house of Israel, is it not My way which is fair, and your ways which are not fair? 27 When a wicked man turns away from the wickedness which he committed, and does what is lawful and right, he preserves himself alive. 28 Because he considers and turns away from all the transgressions which he committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 29 Yet the house of Israel says, "The way of the Lord is not fair." O house of Israel, is it not My ways which are fair, and your ways which are not fair?"

So G-d is fair and right to forgive without Blood and it would still be unfair to punish Jesus on your behalf.
iTruthSeeker

Con

Alright.. Thanks to my opponent for his well thought out objections. I will however, show that his contentions are actually a bunch of verse's taken out of context and represents a plethora of misinterpretations.. Lets begin,

He begins by saying that Atonement using blood is not necessary.. Ok that doesn't really help the issue that atonement is REQUIRED in order to be right before God: "it is the blood that makes atonement for one's life." The author is not talking about what atones for the sin of drinking animal blood.. But for all sins!

I agree that blood is a use for atonement because it represents life. Although it is not necessary.. It does not mean that atonement is not required

My opponent the quotes Leviticus 5:11-13 where it states: "But if he is not able to bring two turtledoves or two young pigeons, then he who sinned shall bring for his offering one-tenth of an ephah of fine flour as a sin offering."

This is an example of God's mercy to the poor and unfortunate who could not provide a blood atonement for themselves.. We see that a blood sacrifice is THE IDEAL ATONEMENT but for these who could not afford these animals.. God allow them to cover up there sins through a different type of atonement

So we see how a blood atonement is the IDEAL ATONEMENT for God to cover up sin's.. My opponent has done nothing but to only show God's mercy to those who could not afford the ideal.

He then claims that the "second goat" was not slain but rather.. released into the wild after atoning for the iniquities of the people.. Notice the sins of the people still NEED an atonement. This in fact.. Is a representation of Jesus both atoning for and bearing our iniquities Here's a commentary that explains this:

"16:15-34 Here are typified the two great gospel privileges, of the remission of sin, and access to God, both of which we owe to our Lord Jesus. See the expiation of guilt. Christ is both the Maker and the Matter of the atonement; for he is the Priest, the High Priest, that makes reconciliation for the sins of the people. And as Christ is the High Priest, so he is the Sacrifice with which atonement is made; for he is all in all in our reconciliation to God. Thus he was figured by the two goats. The slain goat was a type of Christ dying for our sins; the scape-goat a type of Christ rising again for our justification. The atonement is said to be completed by putting the sins of Israel upon the head of the goat, which was sent away into a wilderness, a land not inhabited; and the sending away of the goat represented the free and full remission of their sins. He shall bear upon him all their iniquities. Thus Christ, the Lamb of God, takes away the sin of the world, by taking it upon himself, Job 1:29. The entrance into heaven, which Christ made for us, was typified by the high priest's entrance into the most holy place. See Heb 9:7. The high priest was to come out again; but our Lord Jesus ever lives, making intercession, and always appears in the presence of God for us. Here are typified the two great gospel duties of faith and repentance. By faith we put our hands upon the head of the offering; relying on Christ as the Lord our Righteousness, pleading his satisfaction, as that which alone is able to atone for our sins, and procure us a pardon. By repentance we afflict our souls; not only fasting for a time from the delights of the body, but inwardly sorrowing for sin, and living a life of self-denial, assuring ourselves, that if we confess our sins, God is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. By the atonement we obtain rest for our souls, and all the glorious liberties of the children of God. Sinner, get the blood of Christ effectually applied to thy soul, or else thou canst never look God in the face with any comfort or acceptance. Take this blood of Christ, apply it by faith, and see how it atones with God."

This second goat narrative is not an issue to one who puts their faith in Christ.. It is actually a foreshadowing of what was to come.

My opponent then claims: Whatever man of the house of Israel, or of the strangers who dwell among you, who offers a burnt offering or sacrifice, 9 and does not bring it to the door of the tabernacle of meeting, to offer it to the Lord, that man shall be cut off from among his people."

This questions is actually addresses in Hebrews 13:11: "We have an altar from which those who serve the tabernacle have no right to eat. For the bodies of those animals whose blood is brought into the holy place by the high priest as an offering for sin, are burned outside the camp.Therefore Jesus also, that He might sanctify the people through His own blood, suffered outside the gate.… "

Again, not an issue to a Christian. This also renders my opponents statement" This contradict the requirements of G-d for Sacrifices, so Jesus "sacrifice" was in no way useful for remission of sin." as false because it does not contradict the requirements at all.

Due to a lack of space and time, I will respond to my opponent's contentions in my next rebuttal

Debate Round No. 3
CapAhab

Pro

"Ok that doesn't really help the issue that atonement is REQUIRED in order to be right before God"
Sorry, my opponent added "Required" to fit his theory. Blood is used, but not required. You can see Daniel as righteous before G-d without any offering. Furthermore, G-d said "Come now, and let us reason together," Says the LORD, "Though your sins are like scarlet, They shall be as white as snow; Though they are red like crimson, They shall be as wool.
19 If you are willing and obedient.
"I don't take delight in the death of the wicked, do I?" asks the Lord GOD. "Shouldn't I rather delight when he turns from his wicked ways and lives?

Nowhere will you find that blood is needed in the Hebrew Bible, and you will see that G-d does not want sacrifices.
For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgement of God rather than burnt offerings.
You do not delight in sacrifice, or I would bring it; you do not take pleasure in burnt offerings.
Sacrifice and offering you did not desire-- but my ears you have opened -- burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not require.

"The multitude of your sacrifices-- what are they to me?" says the LORD. "I have more than enough of burnt offerings, of rams and the fat of fattened animals; I have no pleasure in the blood of bulls and lambs and goats.
"My opponent the quotes Leviticus 5:11-13"

This is one example that prove that the writer of Hebrew is wrong to say that Blood is required. They cannot
"My opponent has done nothing but to only show God's mercy"

You god that requires the death of someone for your sin and your god of the New Testament is unmerciful.

The LORD is merciful and gracious,
Slow to anger, and abounding in mercy.
9 He will not always strive with us,
Nor will He keep His anger forever. Psalm 30

Do not remember the sins of my youth, nor my transgressions;
According to Your mercy remember me, Psalm 25

For as the heavens are high above the earth,
So great is His mercy toward those who fear Him;
12 As far as the east is from the west,
So far has He removed our transgressions from us.
13 As a father pities his children,
So the LORD pities those who fear Him.
14 For He knows our frame;
He remembers that we are dust. Psalm 103

"Yet you say, "The way of the Lord is not fair." Hear now, O house of Israel, is it not My way which is fair, and your ways which are not fair? 26 When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies in it, it is because of the iniquity which he has done that he dies. 27 Again, when a wicked man turns away from the wickedness which he committed, and does what is lawful and right, he preserves himself alive. 28 Because he considers and turns away from all the transgressions which he committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 29 Yet the house of Israel says, "The way of the Lord is not fair." O house of Israel, is it not My ways which are fair, and your ways which are not fair?
Ezekiel 18

Notice the sins of the people still NEED an atonement.
The first goat was only for the sins committed in ignorance:
But only the high priest ever entered the Most Holy Place, and only once a year. And he always offered blood for his own sins and for the sins the people had committed in ignorance. Hebrews 9

"This questions is actually addresses in Hebrews 13:11"
No my friend, Jesus sacrifice was not required and G-d ask the Children of Israel not to turn from the right or to the left from what he commanded.

Now all has been heard; here is the conclusion of the matter: Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the duty of all mankind.

And what are the last word of the Bible, Behold Jesus is coming quickly to remove sins? No Malachi 4 says ""Remember the Law of Moses, My servant, Which I commanded him in Horeb for all Israel, With the statutes and judgements."

This is why Jesus "atonement" is nowhere to be find in the Hebrew Bible. The Hebrew Bible clearly say how to be right with G-d, and it"s by turning from our bad ways and keeping the statues and the commandments He gave at Horeb.

But his delight is in the law of the LORD,
And in His law he meditates day and night.
3 He shall be like a tree
Planted by the rivers of water, Psalm 1

The Law is not a curse, G-d ask us to turn from our evil ways and Live. Jesus, is a man deified and it is idolatry to worship him, just as much as it was to worship Nebuchadnezzar. Turn from your idolatry and live...
iTruthSeeker

Con

Alright, thanks again to my opponent for his concluding response. I find this debate extremely interesting and so far.. I've seen nothing to sway my opinion that Jesus is the fulfillment of biblical atonement found in the OT.. Although, I think are response's are getting extremely heavy.. I'll keep my response's simple here on out..

My opponent claims: "Ok that doesn't really help the issue that atonement is REQUIRED in order to be right before God"
Sorry, my opponent added "Required" to fit his theory. Blood is used, but not required."

I'm sorry but the OT is very clear on this issue.. I've already quoted Leviticus 17:11: "For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one's life."

My opponent then claims: As Leviticus 17 does not say that blood is required for atonement, but only use for atonement,

How do you go from "It is the blood that makes atonement for one's life"... to "Oh wait.. He doesn't mean required.. He's just showing how it is one use for atonement.."

Its none other than using the Biblical text to serve my opponents own biased views.. I think its quite obvious.

My opponent then spews a bunch of OT passages that display God's dislike of animal sacrifice to atone for sins... This does NOTHING to help his argument..

It does not logically follow that because God dislikes the burnt offerings.. It therefore means that the atonement is not necessary.. In fact, I find it funny that my opponent conveniently leaves out certain phrases in his OT posts.. Take a look

"6For I delight in loyalty rather than sacrifice, And in the knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings. 7But like Adam they have transgressed the covenant; There they have dealt treacherously against Me."

Here it shows how God desires that we would obey him rather then sacrifice BUT because every human like Adam has transgressed the law.. The need for burnt offerings is required.. My opponent did leave that part in..

Similarly.. My opponent quotes: "The multitude of your sacrifices-- what are they to me?" says the LORD. "I have more than enough of burnt offerings, of rams and the fat of fattened animals; I have no pleasure in the blood of bulls and lambs and goats. Isaiah 1:13

My opponent leaves out the fact that God is sick of the meaningless sacrifices ("bring no more vain offerings" Isaiah 1:13) that the people of Israel were offering.. The people disconnected their sacrifices from their true purpose, They were treating their worship as a way of manipulating God. This in no way shows that God somehow.. Did not require an atoning sacrifice.

My opponent then states: "You god that requires the death of someone for your sin and your god of the New Testament is unmerciful."

Can we soak on that for a second? The God of the New Testament is unmerciful.. Let me lay out the story of the NT God..

Now I must start by stating the Jesus is God.. He is God incarnate (John 1:14).. The biblical depiction of the Cross is not God sending a mere human to pay for the sins of humanity.. It is GOD HIMSELF coming down and bearing the sins of humanity.. Judaism misses this crucial point.

Here's a more in depth explanation: http://www.gotquestions.org...

Nevertheless.. To say that the NT God is unmerciful is a statement full of misconceptions.. How could you say that a God that suffers and dies for all of humanity in order to reconcile his creation back to himself is unmerciful? You cant.. Unless of course.. You claim that its not true.. My opponents claim is thus, nullified.. All the OT passages are referring to the same merciful attributes described in the Jesus narrative. There is no distinction.

Overall.. My opponents final rebuttal is very weak.. I want to however.. Address his quoting of Ezekiel 14:14
even if these three men--Noah, Daniel and Job--were in it, they could save only themselves by their righteousness, declares the Sovereign LORD.

So he essentially says.. "these men could save themselves by by THEIR OWN righteousness.. Therefore atonement is not needed"

Hmm... Well what is righteousness then? according to Ecclesiastics 7:20: Indeed, there is not a righteous man on earth who continually does good and who never sins."

Well my opponent would say that turning from your ways and meticulously following God's law will save you.. However since all have sinned and continually do wrong.. How can we ever be saved? How can we ever be righteous?

Well God answers this question with Abraham: And Abram believed the LORD, and the LORD counted him as righteous because of his faith. Genesis 15:6

Romans 4 further discusses this idea:
1What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found?2For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.3For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS."… 5But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,…

So we see that Abraham was not justified by his own ability to be "sin free" but by his faith in God.. Similarly Daniel was also made righteous by God through his faith in God's ability to save him

Daniel 9:7 - 7"Righteousness belongs to You, O Lord, but to us open shame.

I also find it funny that both Noah and Job offered sacrifices to the Lord for the atonement of sins...

Then Noah built an altar to the LORD and, taking some of all the clean animals and clean birds, he sacrificed burnt offerings on it. Genesis 8:20

When a period of feasting had run its course, Job would make arrangements for them to be purified. Early in the morning he would sacrifice a burnt offering for each of them, thinking, "Perhaps my children have sinned and cursed God in their hearts." This was Job's regular custom. - Job 1:5

Guys.. The need for atonement and faith in God's ability to make one righteous is found ALL THROUGHOUT the OT.. My opponents claims that atonement is not necessary is completely misguiding.

“Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the Lord. But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares theLord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.” Jeremiah 31: 31-34

Jesus is the fulfilment of this new covenant and also is the fulfilment of the Old Testament Law

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Matthew 5:17-18

The fact is.. "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." John 3:16

know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified. Galatians 2:16

I urge my opponent to come to faith in Jesus.. I did not have time to cover the messianic prophecies.. However, Jesus is the only way to salvation..
"For if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins." Galatians 2:16

Thank you for this debate!






Debate Round No. 4
5 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
Posted by logicinlife 1 year ago
logicinlife
I think it would be beneficial for Con to take another approach, that is, focus on the messianic prophecies, which can seal the deal pretty quickly..
Posted by CapAhab 1 year ago
CapAhab
Hi Faceofheaven, read the debate and vote honestly who you thought had the best argument.

G-d Bless.
Posted by Faceofheaven 1 year ago
Faceofheaven
You will debate but i don't think you will win. God bless you in Jesus Name. Amen
Posted by CapAhab 1 year ago
CapAhab
I would be unjust for G-d to put your sins on Jesus.

Jesus could not have been delivered over to death for our sins

Jesus could not bore our sins.
Posted by EvangilisticOmega 1 year ago
EvangilisticOmega
I will accept if you clarify.
No votes have been placed for this debate.