The Instigator
NicKnows85
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
invidiousfeline
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points

God..yay? nay?

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Post Voting Period
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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 10/20/2015 Category: Religion
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 420 times Debate No: 81229
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (3)
Votes (1)

 

NicKnows85

Con

To believe in God, a god, or many gods is to believe in an entity more powerful than yourself. By believing that there is an entity more powerful than yourself you surrender to the human condition of helplessness and enable certain unwarranted weaknesses in the human experience. To believe in yourself is to hold the value that you are ruler of your life and are able to take matters into your own hands, all while being a decent human being.
invidiousfeline

Pro

In order to believe that everything that exists is an accident is very far off and requires a very strong faith, because like it or not, this life is comprised entirely of faith. Whether your faith is in nothing, God, or even the chair you are sitting in, all of them require faith. I have faith in the God of the bible and that Jesus Christ came to this world being fully God but also fully man in order to live a perfect, sinless life and die on the cross to pay for your sin and mine. This does not mean that I am helpless, but that I acknowledge the existence of a loving creator that can love me despite myself. I don't believe that I have the right to pass God off as an option, but that He is my foundation. The notion that Christians are any less intelligent or cannot handle "the truth" is far from accurate. Jesus said that He is The Truth and that no one can get to the Father except by the Son. The truth is this- That God loves you and wants what is best for you. He is not sitting in heaven scheming against you, but has a plan for you that is good and will have a good end. However, in order to live out this plan, you must place your life in Jesus Christ. Yes, religion means submitting to a higher power, but Christianity means having a relationship with that higher power that loves you and has provided for your salvation. So depending on what you mean by God, because you don't decide who God is, He decides who you are, that determines whether or not my argument is valid. However, I will be for Him and sing His praises for all eternity.
Debate Round No. 1
NicKnows85

Con

To begin again, I will clarify my definitions. In this case God, god, or Gods is an entity(s) more powerful than yourself. Meaning that he/she is above your current situation as a mortal human being. I am not only speaking of the monotheistic Abrahamic religion of Christianity, I am referring to any religion in this world, there are a lot dear opponent please keep that in mind. Your faith in your God is not the argument. Let me clarify what I am arguing.

I am arguing that by believing in such (Jesus, Siddhartha, Muhammad, The virgin Mary, Ra, Inubis etc...) You say in a way that there is another force that is responsible for your out come. In example: If I am blessed praise be to 'Allah'...If I am cursed it is the devils fault. There is deferment of responsibility in the belief of a higher power.

Point in case, you say: "The truth is this- That God loves you and wants what is best for you. He is not sitting in heaven scheming against you, but has a plan for you that is good and will have a good end. However, in order to live out this plan, you must place your life in Jesus Christ."

So, first your claim that that is truth is false all on it's own- But I won't go there thats not what we are arguing, just pointing out kindly that that is an extreme violation of fair argument.

Second, You are saying that you believe God has a plan for you- and all you have to do is place your life in his hands. I ask, what about the plan you have for yourself and the steps and goals you put in place to achieve your own greatness? You have been made to be dependent on something you aren't even sure exists because as you said you don't have an option...

I never said christians can't handle the truth, as a matter of fact the word Christian isn't even in my opening statement.

As far as your statement you don't decide who god is he decides who you are again...deferring responsibility of accepting who you are based on your own merit. Renders you helpless in a way, That is my argument. And then again...Christianity is not the only religion on planet earth. If you are going to engage in this debate I ask you have an open mind and find a way to own that you may in fact be wrong. Because I am and if you can convince me I am willing to admit defeat.
invidiousfeline

Pro

Yes I understand your point of view better. What your asking makes sense, but ultimately you will always have something greater than yourself. Whether you think the world was formed by the big bang or a higher power, the world was formed as we can see today. I do apologize for going on about my faith and by no means was trying to change what you were arguing. Just a misunderstanding on my part. I would say that their are higher powers, or at least powers higher than myself. We as humans are very small, being one of over 200 million people we can see the ratio of getting you or me is not very probable, nearly impossible, but yet here you are. I would like to also state that my truth is not your truth and was in no way trying to being closed minded. I don't hold you to the same standard that I hold myself to, as you clearly are con in this argument. I will go even further to say that calling me closed minded was a little rude as you yourself are not opening your mind to my beliefs, and shut me down for it.

For your second point, yes, we will always have factors that dictate how we live our lives. If you really think about it, your plans and mine are insignificant to everyone buy ourselves. Submitting yourself to a greater power makes you a part of something greater. Thousands of people were under and supported Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. and his stance on equality of the treatment and rights of African Americans was so much greater than the other rebellions and had such a cultural impact that changed the future of our country. Likewise, many people submitted to Hitler and likewise had another cultural impact that left the country scarred and infamous. It is not the fact that you are submitting to something, because everyone does that whether they know it or not, but instead what you are submitting to. Are you looking for satisfaction in fulfilling your desires? How do you go about fulfilling those desires, much of which are natural and appropriate? Something tells me you are debating this because you want to know if the whole religion thing is for real. If you look to a religion, they offer many things, but often times can never deliver. Even atheism is considered a religion, as you are still putting your faith in something, even if it is the idea of nothing. I greatly appreciate the fact that you actually read what I had to say and am also grateful for the opportunity to grow and learn. Thank You.
Debate Round No. 2
NicKnows85

Con

First, I apologize immensely...being rude is not something I aspire to be. I was just worried that we had switched gears and may have gotten off on a track I did not wish to visit.

(I wish I had opened this argument to more than just three rounds.)

Second, you say "You will always have something greater than yourself. Whether you think the world was created by the big bang or a higher power, the world was formed as we can see it today."

I don't believe that. I don't believe that there is a force greater than I. I believe that my thoughts can turn into actions and those actions can move mountains. Literally, and I also believe that if every human realized their potential we would all be part of nothing- we would simply be human.

Just as a tamed lion knows nothing of his true power he is still a lion, just a weaker version of what a lion should be. However, no matter where a lion lives, whether it be Africa or Asia a lion is a lion all part of the same group.

Humans have divided themselves according to location, race, religious preference and ethnicity. When really we are all the same and hold the same human power of belief and will, yet we choose to place the responsibility in something other than ourselves because to fathom the thought of us being responsible for our own mess is not in our nature, but it should be.

I do not claim to be atheist. I just believe that the power which we all seek is right inside me. I am my own god. I know how narcissist that sounds. I don't mean it that way, I mean it in the most fragile of ways. But If I want/need something I ask myself to find a way, to find the means, to work harder, to search deeper, to look over under and sideways to always continue to crave education to always put myself first, that I may help others who are in need, to turn the other cheek and lastly to live along side my fellow gods and goddesses.

I just see the search and the need to answer some very un answerable questions- such as why are we here...who am I and whats my purpose. I believe the answer is simple, we were born into the species that thinks and therefore we are...so if we start to believe that we are rulers of our own being, Id be willing to bet disease would decrease violence would decrease...so on and so forth.

Im going to end there, since I wont be able to respond, I just want to say thank you and what a pleasure this conversation has been. I hear your very valid thoughts and understand what you are saying. Sorry again to have came off as rude.
invidiousfeline

Pro

invidiousfeline forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
3 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Posted by Matt532 1 year ago
Matt532
I agree with you ZacGraphics.

I think one of the biggest issues with (improper) Atheists (and Christians who don't practice their faith like they should) is the idea that this world will come to an end, will come to nothing, that in and of itself, it will result in nothingness. All the money and Earthly pleasures one gains will be lost. The difference between Atheism and Christianity is that "proper" Atheists realize that their labor, their good and bad will come to nothing, whereas Christianity keeps us responsible for our actions, and so good is better valued because of the afterlife that lasts forever and is infinitely better/worse than life on Earth. Atheists complain about the problem of evil, which is a legitimate concern in terms of how religions deal with it. However, they don't seem to recognize that life is so short and that the pain won't matter because it's gonna stop and tend towards nothingness like everything earth-bound, like all the gains and pleasures of the world. However, the pain (and pleasure) will matter, but only insofar as it effects one's afterlife.

Of course, I can hear people (including atheists) saying, "Pain won't matter? How cruel of you to say such a thing!" I would respond by saying, I'm just looking at the facts, looking at the logic of things. I think what is really cruel is lying (or being negligent) to someone so they don't get to exercise their free will in as effective of a way as possible.
Posted by Matt532 1 year ago
Matt532
I agree with you ZacGraphics.

I think one of the biggest issues with (improper) Atheists (and Christians who don't practice their faith like they should) is the idea that this world will come to an end, will come to nothing, that in and of itself, it will result in nothingness. All the money and Earthly pleasures one gains will be lost. The difference between Atheism and Christianity is that "proper" Atheists realize that their labor, their good and bad will come to nothing, whereas Christianity keeps us responsible for our actions, and so good is better valued because of the afterlife that lasts forever and is infinitely better/worse than life on Earth. Atheists complain about the problem of evil, which is a legitimate concern in terms of how religions deal with it. However, they don't seem to recognize that life is so short and that the pain won't matter because it's gonna stop and tend towards nothingness like everything earth-bound, like all the gains and pleasures of the world. However, the pain (and pleasure) will matter, but only insofar as it effects one's afterlife.

Of course, I can hear people (including atheists) saying, "Pain won't matter? How cruel of you to say such a thing!" I would respond by saying, I'm just looking at the facts, looking at the logic of things. I think what is really cruel is lying (or being negligent) to someone so they don't get to exercise their free will in as effective of a way as possible.
Posted by ZacGraphics 1 year ago
ZacGraphics
Ah, I disagree.

"By believing that there is an entity more powerful than yourself you surrender to the human condition of helplessness and enable certain unwarranted weaknesses in the human experience."

I think the opposite. If you have 'faith', used by not only Christianity, but many other religions, you are surrendering yourself, yes, but not rendering yourself weak and helpless. If you put everything you do, into this 'God', it is reported that Christians have stronger morals, and are actually mentally stronger, at least, most of the time. Putting your faith in nothing, and you put yourself at risk in falling for anything. Of course, you could argue that you, yourself, are 'mentally strong', and I can certainly understand that. Although, human emotions and morals are so fluid and ever-changing, and the world around us is evidence of that. When you put faith in a 'greater being', this allows you to have the feeling that everything is going to be alright, which most lack, and tend to worry a lot.

If you believe in yourself, what would be the emotion when you fail? It might not feel great. And, as life continues, relying on no one but yourself can become problematic. No matter what your religion, if you believe in a higher being greater than yourself, you tend to get a feeling of security.

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything" -Alexander Hamilton

This topic comes up on this site frequently, but just in different variations. Even if this topic comes up frequently, it still works the brain well, and allows you to easily do some critical thinking. Good luck to both Pro and Con.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by Matt532 1 year ago
Matt532
NicKnows85invidiousfelineTied
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Reasons for voting decision: Conduct - Pro ff, Con assumes Pro's arguments are false without evidence. Convincing Argument - Con dismisses Pro's argument without evidence. Great point of Pro about how to fulfill our desires. Pro failed in connecting the good of Con's argument to Pro's side. Neither side convinced me. (1) Faith in God does mean you are helpless, Pro. However, God gives us the ability to choose, which is what Con was getting at in R1, concerning freedom. (2) There doesn't and shouldn't be a deferment in all of one's responsibilities to a higher power, though one can ask the higher power for help in carrying out one's responsibilities, or to even have them done for that person maybe. (3) We can't put faith in ourselves as death will ultimately defeat us (from an atheist's perspective).