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|Voting Style:||Open||Point System:||7 Point|
|Updated:||2 months ago||Status:||Debating Period|
|Viewed:||198 times||Debate No:||96403|
Debate Rounds (4)
Please feel free to present your argument in the first round so that we can get right into it.
Nothing makes sense without god.
In 1820, a young man who was just 14 wanted to know which denomination was true. One day while he was reading through the Bible he came upon the fifth verse in the book of James that says "If any of you lack wisdom , let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him." After reading this verse he went into a grove of trees and prayed to his father in heaven. However, a darkness overcame him and his toungue was tied, but he kept on praying with all his might, and when he looked up into heaven and beheld a light (Joseph Smith History 1:1-20) two personages appeared to the boy it was the father and the son, God and Jesus Christ. Joseph would not have said he had seen two personages who's brightness and glory exceed above the brightness of the sun stood above him in the air I feel he had not seen them. As Joseph sees these men, one said pointing to the other "Joseph, this is my beloved son" God the father and his son Jesus Christ visited young Joseph in a grove of trees in 1820 in Palmyra, New York.
You have provided anecdotes from various sources, but none of them are real arguments. I can provide the following "counter-anecdote" which would have the same weight as everything you mentioned:
In 2014, a young man, myself, who was only 16 wanted to know if there really is a God after being repeatedly argued against by Christians and other believers. He was thinking about the issue inside his house when a storm started brewing with lots of lightning and thunder. Curious and perhaps angry at his inability to come to a conclusion, he stomped outside into the rain and screamed at the sky "If you are there, then strike me down now with your lightning! Show yourself!" Several seconds later, the young man was still standing there, untouched...perhaps disappointed. It seemed that there's no God after all.
My anecdote carries just as much weight as yours...which is virtually nothing.
Is there any logical, concrete argument you can present for God's existence? Anything besides anecdotes?
However, I can counter your argument that there is no proof that he lives by asking, is there any proof that he doesn't? For your benefit I suggest you watch the movie God's Not Dead, because there is a very compelling argument to prove that God does in fact exist. Now, I guessing you're probably not going to, so I'll continue my argument.
All scientist believe that Earth was created by the "Big Bang" you would have to have two things that would have collided together so that the Big Bang could have happened, but if there's no God where did those things come from? Other than from God, there is no logical explanation. We could not possibly exist without God. We are created in his image, to come to earth in a mortal state and be presented with many trials and tribulations that might prohibit us from moving forward but as we come to know God, our trials are lifted from us and we are able to proceed to an immortal state like our father who is in heave, yea even, God.
I concrete evidence is that everything is in the perfect place, do you think that somehow a planet made from dust ended up in exactly the right place in the universe for humans to maintain life for thousands of years, by accident? I think not. You, yourself is concrete evidence in and of yourself that God exists. For you to have ran outside in a lightning storm while yelling at God to strike you is a sign that Satan was tempting you for trying to talk to God, that's what he does, and you let yourself fall to the temptation of the devil, I actually feel sorry for you. I firmly believe that you should try talking to God again and if it doesn't work do it again, and again, and again, until it does and I'm sure that one day you'll come to the conclusion that God does live and that he loves you more than you can comprehend.
I enjoy arguing with you but you have no proof that suggest that he doesn't exist.
First of all, you still haven't presented any evidence for existence. The only thing closest to evidence you've said is that the world is amazing and that there are "too many coincidences". How could I possibly show that he doesn't exist? It's a logical impossibility, the Burden of Proof is completely on the believer here. That's like me asking you to prove that there ISN'T an invisible, intangible, supernatural, silent T-Rex behind you at all times. You can't. However, towards the end of this round I'll provide something that comes pretty close to what you're asking for, given that you believe in the classic Christian God.
"Now, I guessing you're probably not going to, so I'll continue my argument."
I've heard of the movie, might watch it sometime. However I'd request that you put any evidence presented in the movie in textual form for this debate if you'd like to use it.
"...the "Big Bang" you would have to have two things that would have collided together so that the Big Bang could have happened"
The Big Bang is not a collision of anything. It's an expansion.
"...but if there's no God where did those things come from? Other than from God, there is no logical explanation."
Then let me ask you where God came from. If you say something like "he was always here", why can't we just say the same about whatever existed before the Big Bang? If you say something like "he's outside of time", why can't we just say the same thing about whatever existed before the Big Bang?
"do you think that somehow a planet made from dust ended up in exactly the right place in the universe for humans to maintain life for thousands of years, by accident? I think not."
Well, perhaps you think not because you haven't considered how many planets there are. By some estimates, there are something like 10^24 (which is 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000) in the observable universe. Seems unreasonable to think that in all of those planets, there couldn't be a single one that ended up in a spot with conditions good for life without "holy" intervention.
"I firmly believe that you should try talking to God again and if it doesn't work do it again, and again, and again, until it does and I'm sure that one day you'll come to the conclusion that God does live and that he loves you more than you can comprehend."
I've been looking for him all my life and haven't found him. Your firm belief carries just as much as mine, can't be used as an argument. In fact, I'd like to contest his "love" for me, if he even exists. I assume you think he loves everyone, so why not create a nice world for everyone where we can be happy? Doesn't seem like love to me...
In any case, you asked for an argument against the existence of God. I will make one against the existence of the traditional omnipotent, omniscient, omni-benevolent Christian God.
If God is omniscient, he knows all evil. If he is omni-benevolent, then he would want to remove all evil. If he is omnipotent, then he's capable of removing all evil. We see that evil is not, in fact, removed. This means that either God doesn't know everything, or he can't remove evil, or he simply doesn't want to because he's not good.
There's also a problem with omnipotence itself, known as the "omnipotence paradox". Goes something like this:
Can God create a rock that he himself can't lift?
If you say yes, that means he's not omnipotent because he couldn't lift the wrong. If you say no, then he's also not omnipotent because he couldn't complete the task.
I await your response.
About your statement that if god loves you, if you loves everyone then why do bad things happen to us. Bad things happen to us for a reason we have to grow and learn and understand we have to show God that we are able to choose between good and evil when we need too. We didn't come to Earth for God to make every decision for us, it's called using our agency and what we know to help our weaknesses become strengths. I think that you don't think god exists but that maybe you might hate him instead for not "hearing you" when you try to talk to him. God does hear you and although you don't feel it at the moment I've seen God's hand in my life many times, and I know for sure that my parent have also. If you'd like to know these experiences I'd be more than happy to share them with you.
However, I understand that it's extremely hard for you just a young 18 year old boy or me just a 17 year old girl to explain the existence of something when you don't understand it completely yourslef, and you can't see it, it's called having faith. Have you ever been to Antarctica? I doubt it, yet you still believe it's there, you still know that it exists. So then why not God?
The Declaration of Independence was written in 1776 over 300 years ago, our forefathers such as George Washington, John Adam and many other great men based this country solely on the fact that God lives. You're last statement is doesn't make sense it's like asking you to drive off of the bride but still stay on the bride at the same time. God can do all things, however he will due them in his own time and now when he is demanded no man would ask god to create a rock large enough that he couldn't move and then tell him to move it but if this in fact did happen then God would make it happen.
Until next time, adieu.
No, that's just the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics, the Law of Entropy. You use this to say that the Earth couldn't have gone from "chaos" to "harmony", but the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics only applies to closed systems. The Earth is not a closed system because we have energy flowing in from the Sun. The universe is, as far as we a know, a closed system though and it is experiencing a gradual increase in disorder (entropy) yes.
"Bad things happen to us for a reason we have to grow and learn and understand we have to show God that we are able to choose between good and evil when we need too."
I agree that some bad things cause us to learn and grow as people. But there is too much unnecessary suffering. What does a child learn when his village is ravaged by a civil war, parents killed and house destroyed? What does a man learn when he is tortured by other people because of what he believes?
" I think that you don't think god exists but that maybe you might hate him instead for not "hearing you" when you try to talk to him."
If he exists, I have every reason to hate him. But I simply don't think he does, and I can't hate something that I don't think exists. I don't try to talk to him anymore, why? Because I simply don't need him. You pray and you get things you want, I don't pray and I still get things I want. The opposite happens too. I simply don't need him, I can achieve what I want by my own means.
"Have you ever been to Antarctica? I doubt it, yet you still believe it's there, you still know that it exists. So then why not God?"
But there are other people that have been to, touched and seen Antarctica. We can see Antarctica from satellites and you bring pieces of it. None of those have been or can be done to God.
You ignored my questions in regards to comparing God and the Big Bang, you essentially ignored my argument in regards to evil and put forth a very weak response to the Omnipotence paradox.
I understand that believing is comforting, helpful sometimes. However so far, I don't see a rational reason to believe he exists.
Thank you for your time in this debate.
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