The Instigator
JustCallMeTarzan
Pro (for)
Winning
34 Points
The Contender
Gr8tDeb8er
Con (against)
Losing
20 Points

GodSands has Improperly Characterized Satanism

Do you like this debate?NoYes+2
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 11 votes the winner is...
JustCallMeTarzan
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 2/11/2009 Category: Religion
Updated: 8 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 3,117 times Debate No: 6875
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (22)
Votes (11)

 

JustCallMeTarzan

Pro

The proposition on offer is that Godsands has improperly characterized Satanism, thus sparking a slew of controversy and misinformation.

The following is how he characterizes Satanism:
**************************************

There is a satanic church which has many different sermonises. There are 3 main ones:

Sex orgy
Destruction
Black magic practice.

They think they know evolution is real and that we came from a swamp! They said it like this, "We are from a swamp of soot, and that we evolved from there."

Satanist's: - Devil does not exist - there are not moral rules and no good or evil - there believe in evolution, but say it in vain - there is no God.

************************************

There are 2 types of Satanism:

1) Theistic Satanism
2) Atheistic Satanism

Theistic Satanists believe that Satan exists and is actually a deity. Theistic satanists are not moral nihilists.

Atheistic Satanists believe that neither God nor Satan exist. Atheistic Satanists are not moral nihilists.

And since belief in evolution is not related to belief in God/Satan, the question of belief in evolution is immaterial.

Sex orgies are not a tenant of satanism.
Neither is property destruction.
Likewise Black Magic.

****************************

The Nine Satanic Statements (or tenants) of Atheistic LeVeyan Satanism:

1. Satan represents indulgence instead of abstinence!
2. Satan represents vital existence instead of spiritual pipe dreams!
3. Satan represents undefiled wisdom instead of hypocritical self-deceit!
4. Satan represents kindness to those who deserve it, instead of love wasted on ingrates!
5. Satan represents vengeance instead of turning the other cheek!
6. Satan represents responsibility to the responsible instead of concern for psychic vampires!
7. Satan represents man as just another animal, sometimes better, more often worse than those that walk on all-fours, who, because of his "divine spiritual and intellectual development," has become the most vicious animal of all!
8. Satan represents all of the so-called sins, as they all lead to physical, mental, or emotional gratification!
9. Satan has been the best friend the Church has ever had, as He has kept it in business all these years!

******************************

Satanism has been improperly characterized by our notoriously factually lacking Godsands.

AFFIRMED.
Gr8tDeb8er

Con

Pro has stated there are only 2 types of Satanism. In fact, just like in Christianity where there are many types of Christians, there are many different types of Satanists. There are the two Pro has mentioned: Theistic, and Atheistic. Then there are a few others: Infernals, Evangelists, Practicals, and Diabolicists.

*************************************

Pro also says that Sex Orgies, Destruction, and Black Magic are not parts of Satanism, even though those are the basis of the following three Satanic types.

Infernal Satanists do believe in highly sexual activities such as sex orgies.

Diabolicists are the most pure of satanists and try to destroy and kill as much as possible. A lot of them have been linked to Arsons. Thus destruction is a true statement of something they advocate. Some Diabolicists prefer to believe there is no God or Satin. Everything is Anarchy, nothing is good or evil.

Practicals are very well know to perform dark magic because their religious sermonises are the drinking of goats blood, casting hexes on people. All the 'magic' stuff. Practicals are also referred to as witches.

********************************************

Pro has decided that evolution is immaterial. On behalf of GodSands, I say it is material and can be associated with Satanism.

Quote from GodSands:

"Evolution:
is made up of science with in a micro level. What atheists have done is tried to stretch the science which can not explain evolution into doing so, into a macro level. This is why evolution is such a odd and unfixed out topic, such questions still are unexplained, as how did none living matter turn into living matter? Or how does one creature get to another with out mentioning a volume of time? Since Satanist's believe in magic from the Devil and not science from God they will say evolution how is should be said."

*******************************

Pro did not include all the teachings of Anton Laveyan (A Theistic Satanist). The following are the rest and if you notice he talks about destruction and the use of magic.

--The Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth of Atheistic LaVeyan Satanism:

1. Do not give opinions or advice unless you are asked.
2. Do not tell your troubles to others unless you are sure they want to hear them.
3. When in another's lair, show them respect or else do not go there.
4. If a guest in your lair annoys you, treat them cruelly and without mercy.
5. Do not make sexual advances unless you are given the mating signal.
6. Do not take that which does not belong to you, unless it is a burden to the other person and they cry out to be relieved.
7. Acknowledge the power of magic if you have employed it successfully to obtain your desires. If you deny the power of magic after having called upon it with success, you will lose all you have obtained.
8. Do not complain about anything to which you need not subject yourself.
9. Do not harm little children.
10. Do not kill non-human animals unless you are attacked or for your food.
11. When walking in open territory, bother no one. If someone bothers you, ask them to stop. If they do not stop, destroy them

****************************************

Satanism has been PROPERLY characterized by Godsands Thank you very much.
Debate Round No. 1
JustCallMeTarzan

Pro

Con, in his elegant defense of poor addled Godsands has missed an essential part of Godsand's "argument."

In his characterization, Godsands calls the three main "sermonises" of satanism "sex orgy, destruction, and black magic practice." There are a couple ways to interpret this. First, that these three notions are the three main sects or schools of thought in Satanism. Second, that these are the three main tenants of all sects of Satanism.

There are indeed many different sects of Satanism; however writ large, none of these practices are major tenants. It would be like saying that the Eucharist is a major tenant of Christianity, which it obviously is not. Only Catholics practice the sacrament of Holy Eucharist - similarly only certain sects within Satanism utilize these three practices.

Conclusion - none of these practices are tenants of Satanism writ large, though they may be tenants of splinter sects.

******************************

There is absolutely nothing in the science of evolution to connect it to Satanism. My opponent pretends that since Godsands believes there is a connection, there is. This is obviously a case of very poor evidence. Simply because some satanists believe in evolution does not indicate evolution is connected to Satanism. Some Catholics believe in evolution too - evolution is not connected to the Catholic Church. It has been shown time and time again that Godsands has no idea what evolution is, yet my opponent uses him as a source as though he were an authority on the matter.

Conclusion - there is no connection between evolution and Satanism.

******************************

The only of the eleven rules of LaVeyan Satanism that deal with "sex orgy, destruction, or black magic" are:

5. Do not make sexual advances unless you are given the mating signal.
7. Acknowledge the power of magic if you have employed it successfully to obtain your desires. If you deny the power of magic after having called upon it with success, you will lose all you have obtained.
11. When walking in open territory, bother no one. If someone bothers you, ask them to stop. If they do not stop, destroy them.

Clearly the first one has nothing to do at all with "orgies." Number 7 deals with the practice of magic, but does not specify whether or not this is black magic or any sort of call upon Satan. In fact, since LaVeyan Satanists are atheistic, the exercise of magic could not be related to Satan, since they don't believe he exists. Number 11 deals vaguely with destruction, but is not the sort of wanton destruction that Godsands means.

Even if you accept the notion that number 11 deals with destruction, there are a couple other rules that go against the notion that Satanists are wanton destructionists:

9. Do not harm little children.
10. Do not kill non-human animals unless you are attacked or for your food.

As one can see, the notion of destroying those who bother you is a form of their message "Do unto others as they do to you." It is a limited form of retribution, not a call to destroy everything.

Conclusion - there is no support for the notion that destructionism is a major tenant of LeVeyan Satanism.

*********************************

Godsands has egregiously mis-characterized Satanism.

AFFIRMED.
Gr8tDeb8er

Con

Pro says, "none of these practices are tenants of Satanism writ large, though they may be tenants of splinter sects."

In truth all Satanists follow the teachings of the Satanic Bible, what makes each different is how they interpret it. This is just like how all Christians follow the teachings of the Bible, but each sect interprets it differently.

The Satanic bible is a collection of many different books. In The Book of Lucifer, Section 6 it encourages people to have Satanic Sex, which include, but are not limited to BDSM, insest, homosexuality, and SEX ORGIES.

In The Book of Belial, Section 4 it describes how to perform dark magic.

In the same book, to perform some of the rituals, destruction of property is required. Destruction of property is usually referred to as setting the property on fire.

Sex Orgies, Black Magic, and Destruction are the main sermonises of Satanism, which are all found in the Satanic Bible!

*************************************

Pro says, "there is no connection between evolution and Satanism." even though according to the Darwin era Christian belief, evolution was a form of Satanism.

The Christian definition of Satanism states: Satanism is anything that goes against the Bible (word of god). Evolution specifically contradicts the Book of Genesis, in where God creates everything in 6 days with 1 day of rest.

So according to the definition of Satanism, Evolution can be included as a Satanic Belief.

************************************

Pro says, "there is no support for the notion that destructionism is a major tenant of LeVeyan Satanism."

Arguing all points, here is what Anton Lavey says about those 11 rules:

1. Because Laveyan Satanism came out in 1966, during the sexual revolution, he says, "Satanism encourages any form of sexual expression you may desire." All of this can be found in the book he wrote called 'The Satanic Witch.' Any form of sexual expression does include Orgies.

2. Fact: Any magic and/or ritual performed to intentionality cause something bad is Dark Magic. Not all Black magic conjures up demons, that is why Laveyan Satanists still perform such rituals even though they don't believe in the devil.

3. 9 refers to not harming little children and 10 refers to not killing non-humans. ALL HUMANS ARE FAIR GAME.

As you can see, all the support for destruction can be found later on in Anton Lavey's works.

********************************

Godsands has properly characterized all of Satanism. Thank you.
Debate Round No. 2
JustCallMeTarzan

Pro

Oh sigh... let's examine some of my opponent's contentions:

>> "In The Book of Lucifer, Section 6 it encourages people to have Satanic Sex"

Section 6 encourages sexual freedom, meaning "freedom to either be faithful to one person or to indulge your sexual desires with as many others as you feel is necessary to satisfy your particular needs."

>> "which include, but are not limited to BDSM, insest, homosexuality, and SEX ORGIES.""

Section 6 states:

"Satanism does not encourage orgiastic activity."
"Satanism encourages any form of sexual expression you may desire, so long as it hurts no one else"
"A masochist derives pleasure from being hurt; so denying the masochist his pleasure-through-pain hurts him just as much as actual physical pain hurts the non-masochist."

In short, the Satanic Bible encourages sexual expression that does not violate the rights of others. It does not encourage wanton, orgiastic nonsense - in fact it is explicitly against it because sex orgies are a herd action, something that Satanism is virulently against.

>> "In The Book of Belial, Section 4 it describes how to perform dark magic."

I suppose you refer to the section entitled "The Theory and Practice of Satanic Magic." However, if you read the section, you will see that it says: "There is no difference between "White" and "Black" magic." So, as far as Satanists that actually read the Satanic Bible are concerned, there is no such thing as dark magic. In fact, it explicitly states that those who claim to use "black magic" are using magic for black purposes.

>> "In the same book, to perform some of the rituals, destruction of property is required. Destruction of property is usually referred to as setting the property on fire."

Destruction spells are one of the three types. However, this does not indicate that destruction is a major tenant of Satanism. In fact, the Satanic Bible is quit explicit on the careful use of magic. To hold that destruction is a major tenant of Satanism the same idea as to hold that destruction is a major tenant of Judaism or Christianity because they are ordered to destroy other nations frequently and use a destructive ritual to destroy the Tower of Babel.

>> "The Christian definition of Satanism states: Satanism is anything that goes against the Bible (word of god)."

Fortunately, when we look for definitions, we use a dictionary, not a catechism. Satanism is:
1. the worship of Satan or the powers of evil.
2. a travesty of Christian rites in which Satan is worshiped.
3. diabolical or satanic disposition, behavior, or activity.

>> "So according to the definition of Satanism, Evolution can be included as a Satanic Belief."

That's simply false... and by the way, the word "evolution" never appears in the Satanic Bible. "Evolutionary" appears once, referring to the purpose of a woman's menstrual cycle.

>> "Any form of sexual expression does include Orgies."

Despite the fact that the Satanic Bible explicitly states that it does NOT endorse orgiastic behavior... or any other type of "herd" behavior...

>> "Fact: Any magic and/or ritual performed to intentionality cause something bad is Dark Magic."

False - not according to the Satanic Bible. There is no difference between "dark" and "light" magic - just a difference in purpose. If you want to call evil-purposed magic "black magic" that is YOUR definition, not the Church of Satan's.

>> "9 refers to not harming little children and 10 refers to not killing non-humans. ALL HUMANS ARE FAIR GAME."

False - humans are only "fair game" in the sense that if they strike first, you are allowed to strike back. Satanists do not wander the street looking for people to kill.

>> "As you can see, all the support for destruction can be found later on in Anton Lavey's works."

This has been shown to be, quite simply, wrong.

***********************************************

Once again, I'd like to point out my opponent's fallacy in generalizing minor beliefs of Satanism to major beliefs about how the world should be. Simply because Satanists endorse sexual freedom does not indicate that they want people to engage in BDSM, Homosexuality, Orgies, or Incest - it means that within the scope of one's sexual desires, one is free to engage in behavior that does not violate the sexual rights of others. This is absolutely no different from notions regarding activities like sodomy and cunnilingus.

The Satanic Bible explicitly states there is no difference between white and black magic. I don't understand where anyone gets the notion that Satanism endorses black magic. If anything, it is a tenant of satanism that there is NO SUCH THING.

Simply because some Satanic rituals involve the destruction of property does not indicate that destruction is a major tenant of Satanism. If it did, surely the pillaging Israelites would be guilty of this same thing for destroying many civilizations and burning sheep as a sweet savor to the Lord...

******************************

All of these misunderstandings of the nature of Satanism lead to the notion that Godsands has completely mischaracterized Satanism.

AFFIRMED.
Gr8tDeb8er

Con

My opposition thinks sex orgies are not encouraged by Satanism as a major occurrence. Then he quotes the Satanic Bible which says, "Satanism encourages any form of sexual expression you may desire, so long as it hurts no one else."

----Notice how it says ENCOURAGES and ANY FORM OF SEXUAL EXPRESSION. Sexual expression can be anything including a Sex Orgy.

Pro then goes to say there is no difference between dark and light magic in the Satanic Bible.

----In the Satanic bible it says white and black magic are the same thing, it just depends on how you use it it becomes black or white. For an example if you use a love potion to make someone do what ever you want and have them mary you so you can get all their money when you kill them, that is Black Magic. If you use that same spell to have them marry you because you want to be with them forever that is White Magic.

Pro says Destruction is not a common tenant of Satanism and then supports his argument by saying that we don't consider the Israelites encouraging destruction just because they attack others.

------Destruction is described in the sermonises of Satan of the Satanic Bible. Destroying other people as a ritual is not in the bible that is why when the Israelites bomb the crap out of Gaza, we don't consider their religion as encouraging destruction. If we did that we would also consider pedophilia a significant aspect of the bible if a few Catholic Priests had sex with minors. Sex with children is not in the bible. Destruction of property IS in the Satanic Bible. Therefore it is a common element.

Pro mentions that Evolution is not mentioned in the Satanic Bible, but the definition he uses clearly states Satanism as: "diabolical or satanic disposition, behavior, or activity."

-----Satan is against God and the Bible is considered "God's word." The bible says that God created everything. Evolution goes against creationism. Because Satan goes against God then he goes against Creationism, meaning to behave like Satan is to go against God. Believing in Evolution goes against God. Therefore Satanist's believe in Evolution.

Pro also says that Satanist's only kill a human being if that person strikes first.

------I don't think it matters who attacked first. Satanist encourage killing and killing is an act of destruction.

***********************************

In brief.

Godsands said, "There is a satanic church which has many different sermonises. There are 3 main ones:Sex orgy, Destruction, Black magic practice.

They think they know evolution is real and that we came from a swamp! They said it like this, "We are from a swamp of soot, and that we evolved from there."

Satanist's: - Devil does not exist - there are not moral rules and no good or evil - there believe in evolution, but say it in vain - there is no God."

-------Godsands was right because...

The Satanic Bible encourages Sex Orgies, Destruction and the use of Black magic. Therefore they become main tenants of Satanism because the Satanic Bible is the Bible all types of Satanist's use.

Evolution goes against God and the Devil is for everything that goes against God. Satanism is an act of behaving like Satan according to the dictionary we agreed to use, which means going against God. So Satanist's believe in Evolution.

A lot of Satanist's turn Atheistic and become Anarchists meaning no God and no rules. Those are Atheistic Satanist's.

*******************************

Godsands has properly Characterized Satanism. Thank you.
Debate Round No. 3
22 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by JustCallMeTarzan 8 years ago
JustCallMeTarzan
By the way...

>> "A lot of Satanist's turn Atheistic and become Anarchists meaning no God and no rules. Those are Atheistic Satanist's."

This makes me giggle. Sounds like a good start to another debate.
Posted by JustCallMeTarzan 8 years ago
JustCallMeTarzan
Roy, I submit we both understood Satanism to be those teachings found in the Satanic Bible until Con tried to introduce a definition from a religious perspective in Round 2, which I clarified in Round 3 with a dictionary definition...
Posted by RoyLatham 8 years ago
RoyLatham
This debate about how Satanism is properly characterized was done without either side offering a referenced definition of "Satanism" or citing any informed or expert opinion. There was an implicit reference to a Satanic Bible, but how do we know that it is either authoritative or what Godsands was referring to? The debate was so ungrounded as to be meaningless. I voted a tie.

How about a debate on the political beliefs of snarks and boojums?
Posted by leethal 8 years ago
leethal
Free ebooks, dude:

http://std.kku.ac.th...

It's always good to have the hard copy though, I know.
Posted by JustCallMeTarzan 8 years ago
JustCallMeTarzan
Sorry for the delay - had to go buy a copy of the satanic bible...
Posted by zach12 8 years ago
zach12
feels weird with maya9 banned
Posted by Klashbash 8 years ago
Klashbash
This is going to be up for four more days? You've got to be kidding me. Would you please try privately IMing the guy instead of putting it up in public for one guy? Thanks.
Posted by KRFournier 8 years ago
KRFournier
"JustCallMeTarzan, I like how you end all of your rounds...it brings to mind a giant rubber stamp that gets slammed on the resolution, which amuses me."

I've started adopting this myself. I hope, Tarzan, you don't own the rights.
Posted by JustCallMeTarzan 8 years ago
JustCallMeTarzan
Much thanks Ragaxus...

Perhaps he isn't showing up because he doesn't know how to check the challenge board... or perhaps he actually received some modicum of education and realized he's completely wrong.

Nahhhhh.
Posted by Ragaxus 8 years ago
Ragaxus
JustCallMeTarzan, I like how you end all of your rounds...it brings to mind a giant rubber stamp that gets slammed on the resolution, which amuses me.

There's only one person I can think of who'd take the neg here, and I don't think he's showing yet...
11 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Vote Placed by InquireTruth 8 years ago
InquireTruth
JustCallMeTarzanGr8tDeb8erTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Made more convincing arguments:--Vote Checkmark3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:01 
Vote Placed by MewxVenus 8 years ago
MewxVenus
JustCallMeTarzanGr8tDeb8erTied
Agreed with before the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Agreed with after the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Who had better conduct:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:Vote Checkmark--2 points
Total points awarded:70 
Vote Placed by marin24 8 years ago
marin24
JustCallMeTarzanGr8tDeb8erTied
Agreed with before the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Agreed with after the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Who had better conduct:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:Vote Checkmark--2 points
Total points awarded:70 
Vote Placed by rougeagent21 8 years ago
rougeagent21
JustCallMeTarzanGr8tDeb8erTied
Agreed with before the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Agreed with after the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:-Vote Checkmark-2 points
Total points awarded:07 
Vote Placed by Ragaxus 8 years ago
Ragaxus
JustCallMeTarzanGr8tDeb8erTied
Agreed with before the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Agreed with after the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:Vote Checkmark--2 points
Total points awarded:60 
Vote Placed by KRFournier 8 years ago
KRFournier
JustCallMeTarzanGr8tDeb8erTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:-Vote Checkmark-2 points
Total points awarded:15 
Vote Placed by JustCallMeTarzan 8 years ago
JustCallMeTarzan
JustCallMeTarzanGr8tDeb8erTied
Agreed with before the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Agreed with after the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:Vote Checkmark--2 points
Total points awarded:60 
Vote Placed by blaize 8 years ago
blaize
JustCallMeTarzanGr8tDeb8erTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:--Vote Checkmark3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:00 
Vote Placed by RoyLatham 8 years ago
RoyLatham
JustCallMeTarzanGr8tDeb8erTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:--Vote Checkmark3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:00 
Vote Placed by jjmd280 8 years ago
jjmd280
JustCallMeTarzanGr8tDeb8erTied
Agreed with before the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Agreed with after the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Who had better conduct:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:Vote Checkmark--2 points
Total points awarded:70