The Instigator
tyler90az
Pro (for)
Winning
23 Points
The Contender
vardas0antras
Con (against)
Losing
13 Points

Gods Plan According to Christian Theology is the Correct Plan Compared to Lucifer

Do you like this debate?NoYes+1
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 7 votes the winner is...
tyler90az
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/22/2011 Category: Religion
Updated: 6 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 2,453 times Debate No: 14461
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (13)
Votes (7)

 

tyler90az

Pro

I am arguing that God had a better plan then devil. In reality it was Jesus plan, but God accepted it. Free Will vs No Free Will
vardas0antras

Con

Sure, lets begin.
Debate Round No. 1
tyler90az

Pro

I will be arguing from the LDS denomination of Christian perspective, not the ex nihilo perspective.

The Plan of Salvation Gods plan is meant to bring us maximum happiness. The end goal of the pan is to dwell with God for eternity or have eternal life. In the premortal life most all of us on earth understood that Gods plan was the best one.

"When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?"
Job 38:7

In order to receive the benefits of mortality we need to have free agency. Free agency is also an essential part of Gods plan.

Agency (free agency): Agency is the ability and privilege God gives us to choose and to act for ourselves.
http://lds.org...

Free agency is vital to the happiness and growth of Gods people. If there was no free agency how could we grow? There wouldn't be growth, learning, experience, trials etc. all those things we enjoy.

free to choose liberty and eternal life, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil
2 Nephi 2:27

The only people who don't like Gods plan are those who don't heed to it. If you follow the plan that God laid forth you will be happy, if not miserable.

Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse;

A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the Lord your God, which I command you this day:

And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the Lord your God, but turn aside out of the way which I
command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known.
Deuteronomy 11:26-28

Therefore, just because you don't follow Gods plan doesn't make lucifers plan better. God is a merciful God, he sent his only begotten to die on the cross, so we could be forgiven. God gives us ample opportunities to dwell in glory with him.

Lucifers plan was to hold us captive on this earth. We would have no choices of what we do. Think of Lucifers plan as a communist earth.

Sought to destroy the agency of man
Moses 4:3

seeketh that all men might be miserable like unto himself
2 Nephi 2:27

Another stipulation of Lucifers plan was that the honor would be his. Lucifer would steal all the glory from God. His plan in a sense makes God nothing. Lucifer would be God.

I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor
Moses 4:1

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;

That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?
Isaiah 14: 12-17

Closing
God is omniscience, omnipotent, merciful and loving. I want to worship a God with those characteristics. Like stated above if we were under Lucifers plan he would be God. We would all be undeniably miserable in mortal life and for eternity if he was God.
vardas0antras

Con

"The Plan of Salvation Gods plan is meant to bring us maximum happiness"
What about those who go to hell ?

My argument:
1. People want to sin.
2. Devils lets us to sin unlike God.
3. Therefore, the Devils plan is correct.

"Therefore, just because you don't follow Gods plan doesn't make lucifers plan better. God is a merciful God, he sent his only begotten to die on the cross, so we could be forgiven. God gives us ample opportunities to dwell in glory with him."
1. Yes but that doesn't change how "correct" Gods plan is.
2. Humans still want to sin.
3. Therefore, Devils plan is still correct.

"The only people who don't like Gods plan are those who don't heed to it. If you follow the plan that God laid forth you will be happy, if not miserable."
1. All men are sinners.(Romans 3:23)
2. Therefore, humans don't heed the Gods plan.
3. Therefore, Devils plan is correct.
Debate Round No. 2
tyler90az

Pro

Thank You Con!

---Opening---

1. Gods plan will bring us happiness in mortality and eternity.

2. It is the plan people on earth wanted.

3. God is omniscience and omnipotent he know what’s best, Lucifer doesn’t.

4. People want free will.

5. Devil will be God.

---Rebuttals---

1. “People want to sin.”

The Devils plan wasn’t about sinning. The Devils plan was to take away free will on earth. Then everybody by force would return to God.

“sought to destroy the agency of man”

Moses 4:3

2. “Devils lets us to sin unlike God.”

Devil would actually let us sin less than God. God gives us free will and we are able to make mistakes and grow. Lucifer’s plan was no Free Will, so we would be like robots and do what God wanted.

"I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor”"

Moses 4:1

3. 3.By Cons own standards Gods plan is better, because we would be able to sin more.

---Closing---

By CONS own argument I win the debate. Lucifer’s plan was not about allowing us to sin. His plan was about taking away our free will. With no free will we would be able to sin even less.

By my points and CONS points I win the debate.


vardas0antras

Con

"3. God is omniscience and omnipotent he know what's best, Lucifer doesn't."
1) This doesn't change the value of their plans.
2) For example, God is still sending people to hell.
3) Therefore, Satan's plan is better.

::Moses quote::
The book of Moses ? Never mind that, how does this change Satan's acceptance of sin ?

::No free will::
I need quotes to support this preferably from the Bible.
Debate Round No. 3
tyler90az

Pro

---Free Will---

Devils plan was to take away free will.

“sought to destroy the agency of man”

Moses 4:3

---Go to hell---

Almost no one will go to hell, only Satan, his followers, and the sons of perdition. Everyone else will be in some form of heaven.

Heaven:

http://lds.org...

Hell:

http://lds.org...

---People want to sin---

Devils plan was not to let people sin. His plan was to take away the agency (free will) of man. We would be robots unable to sin.

---Closing---

My arguments were:

1. Gods plan will bring us happiness in mortality and eternity.

2. It is the plan people on earth wanted.

3. God is omniscience and omnipotent he know what’s best, Lucifer doesn’t.

4. People want free will.

5. Devil will be God.

Con was unable to negate any of my points and he didn’t even know what Lucifer’s plan was. It is clear that Gods plan was better than Lucifer’s.


vardas0antras

Con

::Quote::
"sought to destroy the agency of man"

Moses 4:3

1) If I destroy something, it is destroyed.
2) If I take away the free will of something, it still is alive but without free will. Therefore, not destroyed.
Therefore, free will has nothing to do with destruction.

::Hell::
This is open to interpretation.

::People wants us to sin::
"Devils plan was not to let people sin. "
Again, this is open to interpretation. Nevertheless, he lets us sin at the moment hence hes plan is more correct.

::Closing::
Many arguments of my opponent are open to interpretation or are just incorrect. However, one thing that we can be sure of is that we can sin right now (something that devil allows) - this is what we want and while its not a good choice it is what we want,hence, the fact that this is more correct doesn't change.

::Please remember::
"My argument:
1. People want to sin.
2. Devils lets us to sin unlike God.
3. Therefore, the Devils plan is correct."
(Round 2)
My opponent never rejected the third premise meaning that he agrees that the third premise makes this plan more "correct".
Debate Round No. 4
13 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by apologia101 6 years ago
apologia101
Some corrections: I meant to say CON, not pro could have won the debate...
Posted by apologia101 6 years ago
apologia101
I want to respond to this topic. The topic is: God's plan according to christian theology is the correct plan compared to Lucifer's. I am going to take it that PRO is LDS. If I am right, then the topic should be: God's plan according to LDS theology is more correct than Lucifer's. I say this because when christian theology and Mormon (LDS) theology is very different. In Christian theology, which is derived from the Bible, Lucifer's plan was horrible. One only has to read the entire Bible to understand Lucifer's fall. PRO only won because it voters' mind, God's plan should be better than Lucifer's plan, but I am not sure if most people understand that Con (I assume is LDS), is not coming from Christianity theological perspective from the Bible but comes rather from LDS theology. LDS theology gives a different view and almost unbiblical view of what happened with Lucifer--LDS claims some interesting idea that Lucifer and Jesus proposed a plan for humans and God chose Jesus' plan. That is not what happened in Christian theology. PRO could have won the debate pointing that Christian theology, as derived from the Bible, has Lucifer's plan as bad, as evidenced by his fall from heaven to earth and taking with him 2/3 of angels with him. That is not a good plan at all. End of debate.
Posted by ASB 6 years ago
ASB
VardasOantras needed to site from The Pearel of Great Price anyway because this was the book that was the only valid book in this argument. This doctrine could only be found in the book of Moses, which is found in the Pearl of Great Price.

Lucifer wanted all men to come onto him in heaven. He wanted every human to come to heaven... his motives are unclear but we can assume somethings that are argued in my last two debates...

Vardas seemed to not grasp what he was arguing against, because he is not familiar to the book of Moses.

Siting books out of the bible weakened Vardas' arguments... bible's beginnings are not relative to book of Moses' beginnings.
Posted by ASB 6 years ago
ASB
Good crap tyler... u did a way better job than me in outlining the parameters of your arguments than i did against askbob... by far.
Posted by twsurber 6 years ago
twsurber
Sidebar. God created angels lower than himself. Lucifer is an angel, and thereby limited to angelic powers. He cannot possibly be greater than his creator in any capacity.
Posted by Cliff.Stamp 6 years ago
Cliff.Stamp
I thought this was clear, Pro outlined the argument and Con contended something different, though clever was not the actual point in contention.
Posted by CoriEleora 6 years ago
CoriEleora
You realize these "plans" are from Paradise Lost, right?
Posted by Awed 6 years ago
Awed
RFD

Spelling/Grammar - Nothing that detracted from reading the debate on either side.
Conduct - No issues for either side.
Arguments - PRO won this, CON needed to argue against the Mormon Religion. CON didn't adequately do so, so PRO's arguments carried throughout the round.
Reliable Sources - None to either. No big issues with sources with either side to deserve 2 points.
Posted by ReformedArsenal 6 years ago
ReformedArsenal
I hate to do this, because Pro is arguing that Mormon Doctrine is correct... but in terms of this debate, did a much better job.

RFD
Agree Before/After - Self Explanatory
Better Conduct - No Glaring Conduct Issues on either side
Spelling and Grammar - Pro had lots of issues with possessive pronouns and capitalization... Con did not
Convincing Arguments - This is where Pro carried the day. Con did not seem to understand that Pro was arguing from LDS theology and not Orthodox Christian theology. He continually argued that Lucifer wanted to allow people to sin... despite the fact that removing the agency of Humans would bring about the opposite effect.
Reliable Sources - Although not reliable in REALITY, to argue from LDS Theology and quote the LDS website, that's pretty solid. Con didn't use any sources.
Posted by vardas0antras 6 years ago
vardas0antras
Indeed, I disagree with my position myself. Nevertheless, I will win this debate.
7 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 7 records.
Vote Placed by jaydee 6 years ago
jaydee
tyler90azvardas0antrasTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:05 
Vote Placed by apologia101 6 years ago
apologia101
tyler90azvardas0antrasTied
Agreed with before the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Agreed with after the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:-Vote Checkmark-2 points
Total points awarded:07 
Vote Placed by wiseovvl 6 years ago
wiseovvl
tyler90azvardas0antrasTied
Agreed with before the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Agreed with after the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Who had better conduct:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:Vote Checkmark--2 points
Total points awarded:70 
Vote Placed by ASB 6 years ago
ASB
tyler90azvardas0antrasTied
Agreed with before the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Agreed with after the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:Vote Checkmark--2 points
Total points awarded:50 
Vote Placed by Cliff.Stamp 6 years ago
Cliff.Stamp
tyler90azvardas0antrasTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:30 
Vote Placed by Awed 6 years ago
Awed
tyler90azvardas0antrasTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:30 
Vote Placed by ReformedArsenal 6 years ago
ReformedArsenal
tyler90azvardas0antrasTied
Agreed with before the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Agreed with after the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:Vote Checkmark--2 points
Total points awarded:51