The Instigator
dairygirl4u2c
Pro (for)
Losing
1 Points
The Contender
Rational_Thinker9119
Con (against)
Winning
17 Points

God's existence cannot be proven

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 5 votes the winner is...
Rational_Thinker9119
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 6/7/2012 Category: Religion
Updated: 4 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,331 times Debate No: 24149
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (1)
Votes (5)

 

dairygirl4u2c

Pro

Depends on the level of proof you want, and how you define God. But ultimately, if you define God in any meaningful terms, or with substantial level of proof, God's existence cannot be proven.

incidentally. I believe in God's existence, but I don't claim it's definitive proof.
the act of faith -- of its very nature -- involves man's free choice libero arbitrio

CAUSATION
everything we know has a cause. but we also have to recognize that we don't come across God phenomenon everyday, so to speak. if the first cause is God, wouldn't he required a cause too? God doesn't necessarily solve the problem.
if God can just be, the universe can just be.

Atheists often talk about how the spaghetti monster disproves God, cause we could have been formed by it. This is not analogous completely, but it makes an important point. That an intelligence made is is reasonable, that something specific like spaghetti did is random. But, it's still the point that it's arbitrary, like the spaghetti monster, to say intelligence is necessary.

Now, It does make sense say something caused us. If you see a bike rolling, that something pushed it makes sense. Ultimately this analogy does not necessarily fly either though, because a bike is specific, whereas the world is something that could have always been. (if god can alway have been, the world could always have been) we'd expect something specific to have a specific cause, but in something that's unique unto itself like existence as we know it, that isn't necessarily expected- we know bikes roling have causes cause we see it all the time it's the only thing to conclude at that level of specificity, and they're (creation v. bike) different things that could reasonably be treated different per anaysis.
So we have the spaghetti monster on the one side and the bike on the other, ha.

In broader terms, there is the argument a fortiori. if there's an unending chain of events back in time, something must have made that chian- if existance is, even if infinte, it has to be here as an effect of something.
but, as i was saying, not necessarily. If that can just be, so can God.

Some people insist there's "something" that just "has" to be. As Ronald Knox put it, you can add as many links and as large as you like to a chain, but at some point you have to have a peg to hang it on, reiterating the point of an infinite chain argument. Some people like to hang their argument on this "thing" that must just be.
it seems like this peg, or this thing that must just be regardless of existance is just extra fluff that theists use to say he must exist. cause if God an just be, existance can just be.
to say soemthing more needs to be is not necessary. ockham's razor, the simplest solution is prob right.
and even if there was oemthing more, it does't have to be God so much as the fabric of existance. it's just there and just is. that seems like part of existance to me, not soemthing separate from it. to use the metaphor, the peg is part of existance not soemthing separate from it.
and you can call it God, if it's even allowed to be argued that this just being is needed (which i don't think you can do) but that's not saying much.

now, the big bang actually helps verify the dogma of God's existence as certainty, because we stop talking about the never ending chain as much. But was there anything before the big bang? We shouldn't assume so, and if scientists are allowed to make presumptive deductions like this based on observations as a degree of proof, inductive while not deductive, the theologian should be able to too.
So, we see empiracally that there was a first cause, the big bang. if the big bang just happened as it were, is the first particles or group of particles that pushed the next ones then God? Or if it was random chance, is that God? To make God's existence mean anything, that is not God. If you define God as some abstract first cause, you're not defining him as much if it could just be a bunch of particles or random chance, or whatever.
-for example- imagine a 'primordial soup', just a bunch of things swirling around- that of it's nature just explodes producing the big bang. or some other ticking time bomb sceniario, that just is- like God can just be. or, the big bang wasn't the beginning absolutely, but really just the beginning from somewhere or sometime else considering dimensions etc.
-with a qualification. primordial soup, etc, has a sense of not being most intuitive. 'something about a ticking time bomb-ish scenario has too much inferential effect that something set it to explode'- 'even if something could just exist, like God- it's too much to expect a ticking time bomb would'--- this is a strong intuitive point for sure. and i think it does deserve respect, regardless of my thesis in this essay.
-if God can just be... then particles and those other scenarios can just be, or random chance can just occur.
So if particles etc and random chance are possible, then God's existence isn't proven. Even if we assume nothing before the big bang.

you'd just be stomping your foot saying that a first cause, ie God, can just be without a cause, cause he's the first cause and can't have a cause before him. it's like a leap of logic that's not necessarily warrnated or based on anything we've seen as humans empiracally.

definitive proof would be proving either logically that there was a first cause, beyond particles and random chance. proving that there wasn't anything before the big bang that went back on and on. as of now we just have evidence for God. like if you see a dark spot, you have evidence that it's a shadow and thus would need an object causing it, but it could also be a natural dark spot where the sun don't shine. (no i'm not saying in anyone's behind.....) i think it'd be techincally inductive proof not deductive.

ORDER AND INTELLIGENCE
same for intelligence. that there is order to hte universe doesn't prove God.
First, you're arguing that something complex, ie existance, was created by something that would be presumably even mroe complex?
where'd complexity of God come? if God complexity can just be, the universe can.
ockham's razor. The simplest solution would be the most probable.
and even if you conceive of God as nearly pure simplicity, it's still in principle if not more complex in the sense of complicated nature, existence is more complex in the sense that God is just an extra layer. again, ockham's razor.

that order could just be could mean that order just happened to occur, if we assume random chance and particles.
if you define intelligence as order then sure, but that's not saying much. you have to give the intelligence consciousness to mean anything substantial.

same with somethign complex like a watch. it's just proof, even more proof, but not exhaustive. when you look at something complex like a watch, it didn't spring up out of nowhere. it got here as an end product of earth formation, and evolution, and trial and errors and all that. if it did just spring up, you'd have something.
if life can form from elementary particles, that would eventially give rise to evolution to complexity.

but, order, to the magnitude that exists with humans etc, tends to be almost miraclous to some. i don't think it's unreasonable to argue that order is so complex as to be almost miracalous, and put it in the proof for God category. but, i think that it could have just evolved to what it is supports the no definitive proof argument. the ultimate question remains, that why would something complex require something even more complex?

high order is indicative of "irreducible complexity" see wikipedia, and so inteligent consciousness but not definitively.

"God as existance". etc a catharisis so theists can certainly claim God exists. no one would deny existance, rational people anyway. and you can call that God if you want, but it's not saying much
Rational_Thinker9119

Con

"Depends on the level of proof you want, and how you define God. But ultimately, if you define God in any meaningful terms, or with substantial level of proof, God's existence cannot be proven."

Lets say we define God as an omnipotent being (which to many theists, means God doesn't logically contradict himself). Now, if this being exists, he could give everyone in the world an unmistakable proof of his existence (this act on God's behalf would not involve any logical contradiction). This follows from the common understanding of omipotence.

Thus, it's possible that God's existence can be proven with this method. If it's possible that God's existence can be proven in this method, then God's existence can be proven with this method.

Therefore, God's existence can be proven. The resolution has been negated.
Debate Round No. 1
dairygirl4u2c

Pro

"if this being exists, he could give everyone in the world an unmistakable proof of his existence (this act on God's behalf would not involve any logical contradiction). This follows from the common understanding of omipotence.

Thus, it's possible that God's existence can be proven with this method. If it's possible that God's existence can be proven in this method, then God's existence can be proven with this method. "

first this is a semantical type of debate that is missing the essence of the debate.
yes i could have said God "has not" been proven. instead of "cannot be proven". that leaves open the possiblty that God could be proven. however, this is semantics and should not count as a win for con on this specific techncality.... even with my language, for effective purposes, i can still argue that God cannot be proven because no one can effectively prove it. con is simply being unreasonable in langauge expectations, expecting langauge that goes beyond the norm of normal human usage, which is actuallly a flaw on con's part. prople around here have dubbed such things, as grammar and semantics troll.
Rational_Thinker9119

Con

My opponent should have been more careful with the wording, and to be honest my interpretation of the wording is reasonable and no stretch for the imagination.

"i can still argue that God cannot be proven because no one can effectively prove it"

God hypothetically is a being, and thus would count as "one". To say that God's existence cannot be proven without any preconditions, is to leave the debate open to my intepretation of the resolusion regardless.

Also, pro said I could define God anyway I wanted and his argument would work that God cannot be proven, However, I defined God as omnipotent. An omnipotent being could prove to us he existed without contradiction (my opponent never made it necessary that the proof of God could not come from God himself). Also, an omnipotent God could give us the tools to prove his existence, thus we could still prove God's existence without God having to actually prove his existence directly.

Therefore, the resolution has been negated.
Debate Round No. 2
dairygirl4u2c

Pro

i reiterate my last post
Rational_Thinker9119

Con

My last argument stands. Also, if I can define God however I want this doesn't rule out Pantheism either. However, with regards to Pantheism "God" = "the universe" itself. Since the universe's existence is self evident, God's existence under this definition of God is self evidence. Thus, "God" can once again be easily proven.

The resolution has been negated.
Debate Round No. 3
1 comment has been posted on this debate.
Posted by Mrparkers 4 years ago
Mrparkers
VERY bad idea not defining God...

Julius Caesar was called a god by much of the Roman population, and I can prove that he existed.
5 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
Vote Placed by ScottyDouglas 4 years ago
ScottyDouglas
dairygirl4u2cRational_Thinker9119Tied
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Total points awarded:05 
Reasons for voting decision: Con negated the entire arguement. Pro was quite incoherant.
Vote Placed by TheOrator 4 years ago
TheOrator
dairygirl4u2cRational_Thinker9119Tied
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Reasons for voting decision: Although it was a touch semantical, he bourght upp a good point. Arguments to con, because he CAN be proven, and just hasn't yet, resolution is negated.
Vote Placed by stubs 4 years ago
stubs
dairygirl4u2cRational_Thinker9119Tied
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Reasons for voting decision: Same as Always more than you
Vote Placed by Stephen_Hawkins 4 years ago
Stephen_Hawkins
dairygirl4u2cRational_Thinker9119Tied
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Reasons for voting decision: Resolution was effectively negated.
Vote Placed by AlwaysMoreThanYou 4 years ago
AlwaysMoreThanYou
dairygirl4u2cRational_Thinker9119Tied
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Reasons for voting decision: Con's arguments stood. If God was omnipotent, then he could prove himself. I didn't see that as semantics, but I'll give conduct to Pro anyway.