The Instigator
musa441
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
Badi-Nontheist
Con (against)
Winning
3 Points

Gog and Magog were released when Islam was completed in the 7th Century.

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after 1 vote the winner is...
Badi-Nontheist
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 8/5/2014 Category: Religion
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 2,950 times Debate No: 59989
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (2)
Votes (1)

 

musa441

Pro

In this world of Modern technology where religion is thought to be a part of the past, people still fear the times to come. What times? The times which are prophecized in at least all Abrahamic Religions. All this long in my life I have thought about the times which are to come and I always think what would it be like when it comes? Where will I be when it comes? Will I be a victim of it or a survivor? In this cluster of thoughts I never realized that what if I am already living in those times. I always wanted to study in detail the topics of Islamic Eschatology. One of the most important topics of Islamic Eschatology is the Fitna (Sedition) of GOG and MAGOG. Although Majority of the Muslims on this planet believe that GOG and MAGOG are still trapped on this planet behind a barrier build by Dhul Qarnain (A.S). Well the question is that in this era of such advanced technology where we can now view every place on earth through Google earth Application why haven"t we the so called advanced human generation not been able to find that barrier standing anywhere in the world? Three years ago I read a book entitled "GOG and MAGOG in the modern world" written by Sheikh Imran Hosein an Islamic Scholar who gives lectures on Islamic Eschatology and the world affairs internationally. He is one of the few Scholars of Islam in the world today who have explained the current world precisely through references and interpretations of Quranic Ayats and Hadiths and by connecting the dots throughout the history to make conclusions about the current era of Mankind. GOG and MAGOG are already released into this world long ago. How? here I am going to quote two Verses of Surah Anbiya of the Quran:

Verse#95 (Surah Anbiya)
وَحَرَامٌ عَلَىٰ قَرْيَةٍ أَهْلَكْنَاهَا أَنَّهُمْ لَا يَرْجِعُونَ
"But there is a ban on any population which We have destroyed: that they shall not return,"
Verse#96 (Surah Anbiya)
حَتَّىٰ إِذَا فُتِحَتْ يَأْجُوجُ وَمَأْجُوجُ وَهُمْ مِنْ كُلِّ حَدَبٍ يَنْسِلُونَ
Until the Gog and Magog (people) are let through (their barrier), and they swiftly swarm from every hill.
The above two verses are co-related to each other, so if we translate them together it is as:
" But there is a ban on any population which We have destroyed: that they shall not return, Until the Gog and Magog (people) are let through (their barrier), and they swiftly swarm from every hill".
ALLAH says in the above verses that He has placed a permanent ban on the people who have been destroyed or in other words we can also say whom ALLAH has expelled from their lands so that they can never return and reclaim them again but then in the next verse (96th) ALLAH puts a condition which is that only when GOG and MAGOG will be released into this world only then those banned people be allowed to return back to their land and reclaim it as their own again. Now the question is who are those people who have been expelled from their land? Its obvious that ALLAH here is pointing towards the Jews who were expelled from their Holy land (Jerusalem) 2000 years ago and they were broken into 12 different tribes who were scattered around the world. So ALLAH placed a ban on them that they will not return to their Holy land to reclaim it as their own. Obviously they can come as tourists but they were banned from reclaiming that land again. So this means with reference to the two verses mentioned above they can only return and reclaim their land again when GOG and MAGOG have been released into this world. But wait something is not write here because GOG and MAGOG have not been released (view of majority of Muslims today) but Jews are back in their Holy Land (Israel) and they have reclaimed it now. Jews have reclaimed it way back in 1948. So now simple Logic states that ALLAH can"t lie and GOG and MAGOG have already been released in this world long ago. If some one disagrees with this then he/she can put their logical explanation forward and if still he/she can"t put a logical explanation forward and still believes that GOG and MAGOG are not released yet then listen, how come the jews return back in 1948 despite ALLAH has put a ban on them until GOG and MAGOG are released. Is ALLAH"s ban so weak that the jews can violate it and ALLAH can"t stop them?? Definitely not!! Its simple that ALLAH has released GOG and MAGOG already and Jews have returned and we today are living in those times when GOG and MAGOG have spread all over the world and have transformed majority of mankind into a carbon copy of themselves (Godless People and Propagators of Fasaad). I suggest all who have question marks over this content please for once read the books "Gog and Magog in the modern world" and "Jerusalem in the Quran". You can download these books from the website http://www.imranhosein.org....
May ALLAH guide us all to the right path. Ameen!
Badi-Nontheist

Con

The ideas of Gog and Magog were fulfilled through the Baha'i Faith. Notice that in the same year the Baha'i Faith started in 1844, the Edict of Toleration was signed, allowed the Jews back in Palestine.

Also, the details of Gog and Magog in the hadith were predictive of the events in Baha'u'llah's life and exile. I can pull them up if you need them.
Debate Round No. 1
musa441

Pro

Dhul Qarnain in the Quran said after building the wall of Gog and Magog: " This wall is a mercy from ALLAH unto you and on that day when the promise of ALLAH comes true He will lay down this barrier and the promise of ALLAH is ever true"

Which Promise of ALLAH is Dhul Qarnain (a.s) is talking about?? Its that Promise which ALLAH has told all the Prophets in their even Adam (a.s) was told about that promise. The promise of ALLAH which all Prophets were told was that Muhammad (s.a.w.w) will come and ALLAH will complete the religion of Islam Through him. So what does Dhul Qarnain (a.s) mean when He says ALLAH will lay down this barrier when promise of ALLAH will come true? It simple and Logical as well that when Islam will be completed and Muhammad (s.a.w.w) will live on earth that is the time when Gog and Magog will be released and the barrier will be broken. Read the history of the Khazar empire and you will find out that they are the ones who are those people and they are the ones who are controlling the world now. Baha i Faith might have played a part in the return of Jews to the land but the Ban was that Jews cannot reclaim that land again it wasn't that they cant come there. Jews lived in Jerusalem under Muslim Rule through out History. So the ban of ALLAH on the jews was violated when the state of Israel was officially made in 1948. The nations which helped the Jews to return to the holy land were England, France, US and all other European Nations. Read the Balfour Declaration of 1917. Why were Europeans so obssessed with the Holy Land through out the History. Is there any history of Europe before Islam?? Who were the people who led the first crusade against the Muslims??? England!! why didnt the eastern christians never tried to fight Muslims to capture Jerusalem?? why were the european Christians and Jews so obssessed??? European Jews are not semitic jews their genetics have proved it. The europeans or you can say the white people are children of Japeth the third son of Noah. Gog and Magog in the bible are described as the children of the third son of Noah as well Japheth. Even the Quran says the Gog and Magog are from the progeny of Adam and Noah. In the Ancient times (in the time of Dhul Qarnain) these people were called the germanic people out of which came the Khazar tribes of northern Caucasus. The vikings who spread all across Europe originated from Germanic tribes. Read history of Germanic People and KHazars.
Badi-Nontheist

Con

It may be true that Allah completed and finish din (religion) through Muhammad and made Him seal of prophethood, but Baha'u'llah states that this is missing the point. A Most Great Day of Resurrection is mentioned in the Qur'an which coincides with Gog and Magog.

Here are some Quran verses that clearly speak of a time after Muhammad.

Qur'an:
[11:102-7]: ..In that is a Sign for those who fear the penalty of the Hereafter: that is a Day for which mankind will be gathered together: that will be a Day of Testimony. [69:17] : And the angels will be on the sides thereof, and eight will uphold the Throne of thy Lord that day, above them. [50:20] : And the Trumpet shall be blown: that will be the Day whereof Warning (had been given). [39:68-69]: "And there shall be a blast on the Trumpet, and all who are in the Heaven and all who are on the earth shall expire, save those whom God shall vouchsafe to live. Then shall there be another blast on it, and lo! arising they shall gaze around them: and the earth shall shine with the light of her Lord." [7:30]: He will return you (on the Day of Judgment) reverted back to when you were first created. A section guided, and a section will go astray. [43:61] : And (Jesus) shall be a Sign (for the coming of) the Hour (of Judgment: therefore have no doubt about the (Hour), but follow ye Me: this is a Straight Way. [14:48] : "One day the earth will be changed to a different earth, and so will be the heavens, and (men) will be marshalled forth, before Allah, the One, the Irresistible; .." [11:104-7]: "..The day it arrives, no soul shall speak except by His leave: of those (gathered) some will be wretched and some will be blessed. [39:73-4] : "And those who keep their duty to their Lord are driven unto the Garden in troops till, when they reach it, and the gates thereof are opened, and the warders thereof say unto them: Peace be unto you! Ye are good, so enter ye (the Garden of delight), to dwell therein; They say: Praise be to Allah, Who hath fulfilled His promise unto us and hath made us inherit the land* (al-ardh), sojourning in the Garden where we will! So bounteous is the wage of workers." [39:69] : "And the earth shineth with the light of her Lord, and the Book is set up, and the prophets and the witnesses are brought, and it is judged between them with truth, and they are not wronged."

Now regarding Gog (Yajuj) and Magog (Majuj) you have the association with Baha'u'llah as follows:

"Until when Yajuj and Majuj are conquered and they come swiftly from every elevated place." - Islamic Hadith

1. RUSSIANS: The history of Gog Magog back to the Russians, were in fact Russian tribes which lived in Moscow and other areas in Russia.

2. When we look at the Biblical accounts regarding Gog Magog we can see that they were people who opposed God and his messengers.

3. TURKS:: "Yajuj and Majuj come with wide faces, small eyes, grey hair rushing from every elevated place as if their face are like hammered out shields." (Musnad Ahmad). The hadith describes the Yajuj and Majuj as people whose faces are like hammered shields. The same feature has also been attributed by the prophet to the Turks. Abu Huraira narrates that God"s Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Turks; people with small eyes, red faces, and flat noses. Their faces will look like shields coated with leather. The Hour will not be established till you fight with people whose shoes are made of hair." Abu Huraira narrates that the Prophet said, "The Hour will not be established till you fight with people wearing shoes made of hair. And the Hour will not be established till you fight with people whose faces look like shields coated with leather. " (Abu Huraira added, "They will be) small-eyed, flat nosed, and their faces will look like shields coated with leather.") The hadith say that the Muslims will fight the Turks and the Yajuj Majuj before the Hour.

4. OPPRESS JESUS: When we look a bit further, we see that one of the characteristics of the Yajuj and Majuj is that they oppose Jesus and his followers. In a long tradition regarding the signs of the Hour, Nawwas Bin Sama"aan says: "".A short period after killing the Dajjal, Jesus will be informed of the release of Ya"juj and Ma"juj. Obeying God"s command He will take the Muslims to Mount Tur for their protection as nobody will be able to kill the Ya"juj Ma"juj. Ya"juj and Ma"juj will come forth from every lofty place causing destruction and bloodshed wherever they go. Their first batch will come to lake Tiberias and drink all of its water. Their last batch will come to it and say, "There was once water in this lake." Thus they will shoot their arrows towards the sky. God will return the arrows covered with blood and these fools will think they have killed those in the heaven. Meanwhile, Jesus and his companions will remain confined until the head of an ox becomes more valuable than 100 gold coins. Jesus and his companions will pray for their destruction.

5. BAHA'U'LLAH: The same thing described above happened to Baha"u"llah and his followers at the hand of the Turkish Ottoman government. Baha"u"llah and his followers were confined to the Prison of Acre in current-day Israel under the Ottoman Empire. Baha"u"llah was confined to this prison by Sultan Abdul Aziz, the head of the Ottoman Empire. In the summer of 1868, Sultan Abdul Aziz issued the following Firman to the governor of Akka: "Mirza Husayn `Ali (Baha"u'llah) and a group of his companions have been sentenced to life imprisonment in the fortress of Akka." On 12 August, 1868, Baha"u"llah, his family and his companions were suddenly surrounded by Ottoman soldiers and marched off to Akka. Baha"u"llah and his followers lived in very harsh conditions in the Prison of Acre. The details mentioned above regarding Baha"u"llah and his followers prove that the Yajuj Majuj were in fact the Ottomans who confined Baha"u"llah and his followers to the Prison of Acre. Baha"u"llah was the return of Jesus foretold in Islam. In a tablet, Baha"u"llah predicted that God would lay hold on "their prince", meaning Sultan Abdul Aziz. The prediction of Baha"u'llah came true, as soon after the revelation of this tablet Sultan Abdul Aziz lost his power and died a very miserable death. The Ottoman Empire also came to an end in the aftermath of World War One. All this fulfils the prophecy contained in the above tradition regarding Jesus praying against the Yajuj and Majuj and the final destruction of the Yajuj Majuj.
Debate Round No. 2
musa441

Pro

Gog and Magog are two tribes one are the Khazar Turk Tribe and the other are the Vikings or you can say the Norsemen. Vikings came on to the world stage in 750 A.D out of a Cold Isolated place which is now called Norway. They spread all over the Northern and Western Europe and then spread across the whole of Russia in the 8th and 9th centuries. The Rus was the second name of the Vikings residing in Russian Lands. Russian Land has also served as a kingdom of the Tatar Mongols who contain Viking Genes as well. The Khazar Tribe was released a little earlier than the Vikings in the 7th century. Th Khazar empire was established in 640 A.D just ten years after the Death of Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.w). I can quote you a hadith which gives us a clear indication that they were released in the life time of Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.w).

Narrated Zainab bint Jahsh: That the Prophet once came to her in a state of fear and said, "None has the right to be worshipped but Allah. Woe unto the Arabs from a danger that has come near. An opening has been made in the wall of gog and Magog like this," making a circle with his thumb and index finger. Zainab bint Jahsh said, "O Allah's Apostle! Shall we be destroyed even though there are pious persons among us?" He said, "Yes, when the evil person will increase."

Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri: The Prophet said "The people will continue performing the Hajj and 'Umra to the Ka'ba even after the appearance of gog and Magog." Narrated Shu'ba extra: The Hour (Day of Judgment) will not be established till the Hajj (to the Ka'ba) is abandoned. (Book #26, Hadith #663)

Narrated Zainab bint Jahsh: That the Prophet came to her in a state of fear saying, "None has the right to be worshiped but Allah! Woe to the Arabs because of evil that has come near. Today a hole has been made in the wall of gog and Magog as large as this." pointing with two of his fingers making a circle. Zainab said, "I said, 'O Allah's Apostle! Shall we be destroyed though amongst us there are pious people? ' He said, 'Yes, if evil increases." Narrated Um Salama: The Prophet woke up and said, "Glorified be Allah: What great (how many) treasures have been sent down, and what great (how many ) afflictions have been sent down!"

Now Let me quote you some hadiths regarding the Turks and the Gog and Magog and you will find similarity between their descriptions and do remember that when I say turks I dont mean all the turks If you read the history of the turks they originate from central asia and northern caucasus region and they were more than 30 different turk tribes in that region and out of those thirty khazars tribe is the one who was the most superior and with a brutal army against whom even the rising power of Muslims were defeated 4 times and Khazars are the main reason why Islam coudnt spread into europe Because The only way to enter europe was through caucasus mountains and khazar kindom was located just north of those mountain ranges if you check out the map. So Arabs had to fight the Khazars in order to enter europe. Here are the hadiths:

This hadith describes the turks:

You will fight the people who wear shoes which are made of bristle and kill them. The fight against the people with wide shield faces is a sign for the doomsday. The doomsday won't come until you kill the little eyed, red faced, pug nosed, shield faced, thick skinned Turks.."( Bukhari, e's-Sahih, kitabu'l-Cihad/95; Muslim, e's-Sahih, Kitabu'l-Fiten/66, hadith #: 2912; İbn Maja, hadith #: 4097-409

Now this hadith describes the Gog and Magog:

"You say that you have no enemy but you will continue to fight (your) enemies until Gog and Magog emerge with wide faces, small eyes, and reddish black hair. They will pour down from every slope as if their faces are like lowered shields." (Ahmad)

There is a great similarity between the turks and the Gog and Magog people. The Khazar tribe genes contain genes of Vikings as well. Vikings are the Magog because the words Gog is described as someone coming out of the word Magog meaning the gog tribe will be a product of Magog tribe. So it is an indication that in ancient times these tribes were united and out of them came the khazars who settled in the northern caucasus region and the magog tribe vikings remained where they were all the time ( in norway). When the promise of ALLAH came true (Islam completed) then that Barrier built by Dhul Qarnain built between the caucasus Mountains passage was shattered and the Khazar tribe was set loose and thus they made their empire in 630's AD. Vikings established their empire a little later in 750 AD. Do you know where are these people these days??? The europeans are in majority descendents of Vikings (Norsemen) and the Askhenazi jews who now control Israel and all the world affairs. Europeans were the one who started the crusades against Muslims, Europeans were the ones who colonized all the parts of the world and destroyed the native races like in Australia in America and in Africa. White Americans are european people by origin and they killed millions in Japan through atom bomb. Both the world wars so far have been started by europeans. I think you know it that Gog and Magog will create fasad wherever they go and they will kill and plunder where ever they go. Arent Europeans responsible for all kinds of fasad today??? Some people say the Mongols were the Gog and Magog well I say they were part of them as the Mongols originated from CHINA but they intermingled with the VIKINGS and the Khazars and transformed themselves into ruthless barbarians so its a matter of Genetics here. Today atleast 90 % of the world has become product of Gog and Magog society and all are destined to hell unless those who resist their system will be saved.
Here is a clear indication in this hadith about the fact that today's world is more than 90 % a part of Gog and Magog Society:

he Messenger of Allah said, "Allah divided mankind into ten parts. Nine tenths constitute Ya'juj and Ma'juj while the remaining one tenth constitutes the rest of mankind." (Abdullah-b-Amr/Fathul-Bari).

Hadrat Abu Saeed Khudri narrates that the Messenger of Allah said, "On the Day of Judgement, Allah will tell Adam to pick out the Jahanamis from his progeny. Adam will ask, "O Allah, who are they?" Allah will say,"999 out of 1000 are Jahanamis while the one is a Jannati." On hearing this the Sahaba over taken by fear asked, "Who will the ONE Jannati be?" The Prophet replied, "Do not grieve the 999 will be Yajuj Ma'juj while you will be the one Jannati." (Bukhari/Muslim)

Over the last 1000 years the world population has grown so large that it may be possible that the world population in the times before Islam would have been a mere 5% of the population today. Its because the gog and magog people are scattered in the world and they have expanded their race by inter marriages with different people all over the world. Gog and Magog are already here and we need to beware of them.
Badi-Nontheist

Con

If you saying Gog and Magog were realized during the time of Muhammad, why was the Last Days not realized during the time of Muhammad?
Debate Round No. 3
musa441

Pro

First of all Khazars were recognized as a force first when The Arabs fought them before that the world just knew about the Khazar people as some tribes of people who live remotely and thus the reality of Khazars was hidden but when Arabs fought them they came to know about the military strength of these people which then made Khazars a recognizable force in the known world then. In the days when Muhammad (s.a.w.w) was alive these people had just besieged the Barrier and they wanted to organize before they start their mischief on earth. The khazar empire was established in the year 640 AD, 8 years after the death of Muhammad (s.a.w.w). There are some Muslims in the past who recognized them as Gog and Magog like Istakhri, Al fadhlan etc.

One must understand the logic that Gog and Magog and the Anti-Chtist are the seditions which ALLAH didn't wanted to get recognized by the Humans so early. These two seditions are actually tests of Mankind and its ALLAH's will when He wants these two seditions to be recognized by Humans. ALLAMA Muhammad Iqbal recognized these people for the first time back in 1924 when European people abolished Khilafah and decided to make a Jewish State in an area where the Palestinians were living for centuries. It was an evil and Unjust plan which ALLAMA Iqbal recognized back then and he has mentioned gog and magog in one of his poems :

Urdu Version: " Khul Gaye Yajuj Majuj ke Lashkar Tamam"
" Chashm e Muslim dekh le tafseer e Harf e Yansilun"

English Meaning:

"Gog and Magog all have been released"
"The Muslim eye will see the meaning of 'Yansilun'"

The Word Yansilun refers to the two Verses of Surah Anbiya in the Quran :

Verse#95 (Surah Anbiya)
وَحَرَامٌ عَلَىٰ قَرْيَةٍ أَهْلَكْنَاهَا أَنَّهُمْ لَا يَرْجِعُونَ
"But there is a ban on any population which We have destroyed: that they shall not return,"
Verse#96 (Surah Anbiya)
حَتَّىٰ إِذَا فُتِحَتْ يَأْجُوجُ وَمَأْجُوجُ وَهُمْ مِنْ كُلِّ حَدَبٍ يَنْسِلُونَ

The meaning of these have been described in my Argument in the first round. Check it!!

One of Allama Iqbal's students "Maulana Fadhal Ur Rehman Ansari" carried out further research on these views of Allama Iqbal and got convinced that these people are released. For some reason Maulana Fadhal ur Rehman Ansari didnt openly preach this topic and his student Maulana Sheikh Imran hosein started his research on this topic in the early 90's and he till date is the only scholar of this era to have made the most comprehensive and logical explanation of these topics and have also concluded that the Khazars are the people of Gog and Magog but yet he didnt mention about the Vikings ( Norsemen). The vikings theory is researched by his students of which one of them is me. I am pretty convinced now that The Norsemen (vikings) were the Magog and Khazars are Gog.

You can view the history of Khazars and the vikings and you will get an idea when they came on the world stage and they came like waves as well. First came the Khazars, then Vikings, then Mongols, then Rothschilds emerged in the 17th century and are ruling the world currently from behind their puppets sitting on top of almost all the Govts of this world today.

Khazars, Vikings, Mongols, and the Rothschilds all have the same blood Genes. The white people of Europe originated from Germanic tribes in Ancient times out of which came the tribes of Vikings Later on and Khazars came out of the turk Tribes of central Asia. One thing to note here is that turks and the Germanic Tribes are both from the children of Japheth the third son of Noah(a.s) and Bible's description states that gog and magog will be from the Third son of Naoh (Japheth). Is this a coincidence?? I dont think so!!
Badi-Nontheist

Con

Well you will have a hard time proving that this is anything more than mere coincidence. Plus this is essentially a conspiracy theory so by definition there is no real proof for it otherwise it would be known as historical fact rather than an obsession
Debate Round No. 4
musa441

Pro

A typical reply by a typical sheep of today without even researching the topics and concluding that it can be a mere coincidence!! Listen I am a Muslim I dont know about you but if you are a muslim then you should know that ALLAH (GOD) doesnt lie in his verses and he has clearly told us in Chapter of Surah Anbiya of the Quran (Holy Book) that :

Verse#95 (Surah Anbiya)
وَحَرَامٌ عَلَىٰ قَرْيَةٍ أَهْلَكْنَاهَا أَنَّهُمْ لَا يَرْجِعُونَ
"But there is a ban on any population which We have destroyed: that they shall not return,"
Verse#96 (Surah Anbiya)
حَتَّىٰ إِذَا فُتِحَتْ يَأْجُوجُ وَمَأْجُوجُ وَهُمْ مِنْ كُلِّ حَدَبٍ يَنْسِلُونَ
Until the Gog and Magog (people) are let through (their barrier), and they swiftly swarm from every hill.

The above two verses are co-related to each other, so if we translate them together it is as:
" But there is a ban on any population which We have destroyed: that they shall not return, Until the Gog and Magog (people) are let through (their barrier), and they swiftly swarm from every hill".

ALLAH says in the above verses that He has placed a permanent ban on the people who have been destroyed or in other words we can also say whom ALLAH has expelled from their lands so that they can never return and reclaim them again but then in the next verse (96th) ALLAH puts a condition which is that only when GOG and MAGOG will be released into this world only then those banned people be allowed to return back to their land and reclaim it as their own again. Now the question is who are those people who have been expelled from their land? Its obvious that ALLAH here is pointing towards the Jews who were expelled from their Holy land (Jerusalem) 2000 years ago and they were broken into 12 different tribes who were scattered around the world. So ALLAH placed a ban on them that they will not return to their Holy land to reclaim it as their own. Obviously they can come as tourists but they were banned from reclaiming that land again. So this means with reference to the two verses mentioned above they can only return and reclaim their land again when GOG and MAGOG have been released into this world. If you believe that Gog and Magog are not released then Please put forward an explanation as to how have the jews returned their promised holy land before their Release whereas ALLAH says that they cant return before them. Please put forward a valid explanation for this.

If you are a non-Muslim then answer me this :

Why were European Christians so obsessed for getting the Jews back to their holy land in 1948?? I thought the Jews and Christians were bitter enemies through out history. Why this mysterious obsession?
Badi-Nontheist

Con

Well I said I would agree that Gog and Magog were historical reference to peoples or situations during the time of Muhammad, and that they also refer in a symbolic or metaphorical sense to other eschatological events promised in the Quran.

I just said that the reference to hidden groups of people ruling the earth with power and money (you listed a group of people throughout history) was like a conspiracy theory that needs a lot of evidence to prove that you have not shown here.
Debate Round No. 5
2 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Posted by Vajrasattva-LeRoy 2 years ago
Vajrasattva-LeRoy
Islam, by definition, means submission to the will of God.
There is no such Religion as submission to the will of God.
Islam isn't a Religion.

Since people have been Refusing to submit all along,
Islam has to be False.
Posted by Vajrasattva-LeRoy 2 years ago
Vajrasattva-LeRoy
Gog & Magog are/were the Communist Soviet Union & Communist China.
Their attacks, & failure to destroy the Jewish state, apparently
took place back around 1973/ 4.
That was the War of Armageddon.
(Not using huge #s of obsolete foot soldiers marching across the world with swords & spears & shields but modern weaponry.)
The Jews kicked their butts.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by bladerunner060 2 years ago
bladerunner060
musa441Badi-NontheistTied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: This debate was painful to read. In the end, I don't think Pro gave a case which sufficicently fulfilled his BoP. Con noted that Pro hadn't really supported his contention in a meaningful sense in his final round conclusion, and I have to agree. As always, happy to clarify this RFD.