The Instigator
Lildrummerboy
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
ryoz
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

Goku vs Superman

Do you like this debate?NoYes+1
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 0 votes the winner is...
It's a Tie!
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 8/11/2014 Category: Entertainment
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 654 times Debate No: 60316
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (7)
Votes (0)

 

Lildrummerboy

Pro

For my first debate on the site, I will debate for a topic I am thoroughly knowledgeable about. Although this isn't a serious topic, the debate should be taken seriously.

FORMAT:
Round 1: Acceptance/greeting, as well as choosing sides
Round 2: Presenting arguments (no counter-arguments)
Rounds 3&4: Countering the opponents points, and presenting more if necessary.

RULES:

The battle will continue until death/incapacitation.

Superman will be able to use all cannon references from the debater's choice between new52 and Post-Crisis Superman. If you choose New-52, it will be considered cannon, while post-crisis will be non cannon, and Vice Versa. He will not be able to sun dip, and will not use any magic items or technology to assist him.

Goku will be able to use all cannon references from the Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball Z, and the the one who debates for this side will choose between Dragon Ball GT and Battle of the Gods. If you choose GT, it will be considered cannon, while Battle of the Gods is non cannon, and Vice Versa. Goku will not be able to use any Senzu beans, and will not have his power pole or any other magical items.

The characters will be fighting on a planet exactly the same as earth that is for all intents and purposes indestructible. The planet has no population, as that would affect the battle with conflicting morals. The characters are willing to do whatever it takes to win, but will remain in character. This is a one on one, so there will be no interference from other characters (This means Goku cannot gather energy for a spirit bomb from other living beings)

Upon accepting, please state which side you wish to debate for, and which form of cannon you wish to use. If my fellow debater chooses Superman, I will debate with GT. If my opponent chooses Goku, I will debate with Post-Crisis.

I wish my opponent luck, and hope to have a fun and civil debate.
ryoz

Con

I accept this debate and look forward to an interesting challenge. I will choose pre crisis Superman. I have a question though. Since you say help is not allowed wouldn't that automatically invalidate Super saiyan God as goku originally needed the help of other saiyans to initially achieve the form. Super saiyan 4 was also achieved with the help of pan making holiday remember who he was.
Debate Round No. 1
Lildrummerboy

Pro

Thank you for accepting the challenge, and I look forward to a great debate. To answer the question of super saiyan god (SSG) and super saiyan four (SS4), SSG was only achieved once and with assistance, while SS4 can be achieved under Goku"s own power after it has been initially achieved. Therefore Super Saiyan god would not be used, while SS4 can been used. However, destroying king kai"s planet (which has the density of a neutron star) could have been used. Also, I will assume a typo and that you are using post crises, not pre-crises, as per the rules.

On to the bulk of the debate. There are multiple reasons as to why Goku would overcome Superman in a fight. Goku is vastly more powerful, more skilled, and is vicious enough to overcome his adversary.

Dragon ball/z/gt characters, as I am sure you are aware, have massive amounts of strength and destructive capabilities. Planet destroying capabilities have dated back to even Frieza, who in his base form was capable of effortlessly destroying Planet Vegeta [1], which has at least ten times the surface gravity of earth [2].

How impressive is this? At the bottom, I have included a link to a page that approximates that it would take approximately 2.24 " 10^32 J [3]. to blow up the earth, and so it wouldn"t be ridiculous to assume that even at that point the characters are more powerful than all nuclear warheads humankind has made by no small amount. Although it is quite ridiculous to try to convert joules -> power level, power ratios are less ambiguous. Time for the notorious Z-tard math, done through ratios.

Assuming that Planet Vegeta was equivalent to earth (lowballing, considering it had 10X the surface gravity), lets assume Frieza can output at least 3x10^32j in his base form. His second form is quoted to be at least twice as strong, and his final form is minimally 100x stronger than that. Cell is at least twice as strong, due to being near equal in strength to Gohan who was at least twice as strong as Goku, who is at least as strong as Frieza. Goku in the Buu saga must be at least four times as strong, seeing how his SS3 form is that much stronger than his SS2, and he is stronger than Gohan is at that point. Buu, by being able to match him, is approximately as strong. General Rildo in his base form is quoted to be stronger than Buu [3.5]. GT Goku in his base form is strong enough to take on Rildo in his base form. The SS4 transformation is 4000x stronger than that. That means, that at the VERY least, lowballing every step, Goku must be able to produce 1.92x10^39 Joules of energy.

Superman meanwhile relies on the sun for his energy. The total energy that reaches the earth per second is 1.3x10^14 joules per second [4], or 6.83x10^19 joules per year. That means that if Superman expended no energy and collected every ounce of energy the earth took in, it would take him a quintillion years to gather this much energy. In fact, if he had all the power output of the sun, it would take him just short of ten thousand years, as the sun only puts out 1.8x10^26 joules per second [5].

Therefore I suggest that superman, without this time period, would not have the energy needed to move fast enough, strike hard enough, or use heat vision intense enough to phase Goku.

Goku has also shown highly impressive skill and adaptability, including learning the Kamehameha in a matter of seconds, despite being a child without knowledge of ki and only seeing it done once [6], passing Korin"s training in three days whereas the only other time it was ever completed it took three years [7], see the flaws in tien"s strategy in seconds[8], and being able to use his signature attack from his feet on an impulse [9]. Not all of it is skill however, Goku"s saiyan physiology also plays a large part in this. In Goku"s battle against Eis, his body was capable of adapting to being frozen after only one instance of this happening [10].

I suggest that Kryptonians have been beaten by more skillful yet weaker opponents (for example Karate Kid), and enemies who were able to adapt their fighting style to face them (for example doomsday). Goku has both of these qualities, as well as superior strength, and thus Goku would have another edge.

Finally, I suggest that Goku would have the mental edge as well. Superman rarely goes all out against anyone, especially if he can help it. So I suggest that while Goku often starts out at a small percent of his power, Superman will only use the amount of power that he can see as justified, and will hold back until he can"t keep up otherwise. Goku meanwhile will learn superman"s techniques and habits at low energy, and than when he goes full out will completely overwhelm him.

In summery:
1)Goku has a level of energy that can"t be matched by the sun-dependant Superman due to the fact that he has more energy than the sun itself.
2)Goku is adaptable and skillful enough to overcome any advantages Superman might have
3)Goku is mentality is much better suited to fighting superman than Superman"s is to fighting Goku.

Sources:

[1] http://v2012.mangapark.com...

[2] http://v2012.mangapark.com...

[3] http://physics.stackexchange.com...

[3.5] https://www.youtube.com...

[4] http://www.ecoworld.com...

[5] http://www.physics.fsu.edu...

[6] http://v2012.mangapark.com...

[7] http://v2012.mangapark.com...

[8] http://v2012.mangapark.com...

[9] http://v2012.mangapark.com...

[10] https://www.youtube.com...
ryoz

Con

Superman is kryptonian powered by the solar energy of the sun, his power is based on science. I know you must be wondering what that means. In comic continuity Superman being based on science is not afforded protection from magic based attacks and weapon's and thevery universe he exists in is a magic based reality. The reason I point this out is because this battle takes place on an area that is for all intensive purposes an indestructible earth with a sun identical to ours. The difference is the fact that this is not Superman's dc universe anymore therefore he is no longer in his own magic based reality, the reason pre crisis Superman also known as silver age Superman was so strong was because he inhabited a science based reality. While I don't presume that this reality is science based it is definitely not based upon magic.

Now on to some of supermans stats.

Superman has kryptonian physiology that makes his body denser then a humans and affords him enhanced durability. Post crisis Superman's durability feats include surviving being in the middle of two colliding planets that both appear to be earth size. He's been beaten down by darkseid, doomsday, and other superpowered villains and has still continued to fight.

Speed challenge.

I have no idea where people get the idea that goku can blitz Superman or somehow move faster than him and the speed of light. There are numerous instances of goku moving faster than the eyes of lower tier people in his manga and anime of course. I account that to the same thing as people being surprised by Superman's ability to take a beating. The human eye tracks speeds differently and then you have to take into account the speed it takes for your mind to process what you saw, there are multiple reasons people would lose track of goku all you could conclude is that holiday is faster than most people's eyes. The only instances I've ever seen of holiday moving at light speed happen to be instant transmission while Superman can think and react at lightspeed. Another thing to note about holiday instant transmission is that while the transport is instant, it takes at least a second for goku to initiate it. He has to concentrate to use his instant transmission. Superman can move at speeds rivaling the flash and has access to the imp(infinite mass punch).

Goku has planet busting capabilities his kamaheha blast being his trademark attack. He can also fire explosive ki blasts. Superman has the strength to punch through small planets. While holiday planet busting attacks are truly frightening they all have one specific flaw. Holiday takes an inordinate amount of time for him to charge up for some reason, perhaps it's for dramatic effect or he likes long drawn out scenes where he gathers his power up to make his struggles seem more epic. Superman does not suffer from such a flaw like the entire dbz cast seems to. His attacks are all instantaneous or don't require him to do any charging up or staying in a specific stance like goku does.

Superman has instant laser vision, x Ray vision, microscopic vision and those are just his regular powers across all his incarnations. Superman's heat vision is repudiated to be hotter than the sun which seems somewhat contradictory to power scaling. Superman can also vibrate fast enough to slip through attacks similar to the flash family.

This is the end of my opening argument for now.
I'll leave my first argument with a few points.

1. While goku's instant transmission mission allows him to move at light speed while being energy, Superman can move at light speed physically and can actually think at light speed while moving.

2. In an animated series which we know to always weaken Superman he survived the equivalent of 15 supernovas.

3. If you power scale goku in his base could lift 40 tons, with the mythical and widely inconsistent power scaling of the dbz universe at ss4 he should be able to lift 160 tons to Superman's 6.6 Quintilian tons.

4. Superman can survive a 10 octillion explosion while with power scaling goku can stand a 34.7 sextillion blast far lower than the man of steel.

http://www.screwattack.com...

http://m.youtube.com...

http://m.youtube.com...

http://dc.wikia.com...
Debate Round No. 2
Lildrummerboy

Pro

Lildrummerboy forfeited this round.
ryoz

Con

ryoz forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
Lildrummerboy

Pro

Lildrummerboy forfeited this round.
ryoz

Con

ryoz forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
7 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 7 records.
Posted by ryoz 2 years ago
ryoz
I'll wait for my opponent to post more points and then I will post my rebuttals.
Posted by ryoz 2 years ago
ryoz
Pre crisis is silver age Superman at the end of dc's run with him. Post crisis on infinite earth's is the most reported version of Superman next to early golden age and beginning of new 52
Posted by Lildrummerboy 2 years ago
Lildrummerboy
MOST superman debates work around five superman concepts. 1) Silver age, 2)Pre-crisis, 3) Post crisis, 4) New 52, and 5) animated. Silver age is obviously from a time where superman sneezes solar systems and repairs space-time with static from rubbin his hands together. They toned him down later, which made it easier to make him relateable and to write stories for. However, they toned him down again, to adjust to the public's growing want for relateable and flawed characters, and used the crisis on infinite earths as an easy way to do this. The next large reboot of the character, to the point where feats are no longer considered interchangeable was new 52. Using Post crisis superman in a debate allows access to all feats between the crisis on infinite earths and the reboot, so there is FAR more to work with than any version of Goku, or the alternate choice of new-52, do to the decades of years being published.

This has been the understanding I have reached from years of debating on sites such as comic vine, where everyone is a nerd. Post-crisis is immensely strong, and would be my choice, but you can use new 52 instead if you like. Silver age and pre-crisis are simply overpowered to the point that I can't think of any good debate for Goku, and animated is vastly weaker.
Posted by ryoz 2 years ago
ryoz
That's a really depowered version of mainstream Superman. Shouldn't I be able to choose which crisis Superman I use.
Posted by Lildrummerboy 2 years ago
Lildrummerboy
Sorry for the delay!

This would be Superman post crisis on infinite earths.
Posted by ryoz 2 years ago
ryoz
I will use infinite crisis Superman.
Posted by ryoz 2 years ago
ryoz
I had another question. Which crisis Superman are we talking about? Post crisis on infinite earth's, zero hour: crisis in time, infinite crisis or final crisis as their Superman all have differences in power and change Superman a bit.
No votes have been placed for this debate.