The Instigator
Defro
Pro (for)
Losing
2 Points
The Contender
Jay-D
Con (against)
Winning
6 Points

Goku will win a fight against Superman if not equally match him

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
Jay-D
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/15/2014 Category: TV
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 5,409 times Debate No: 43878
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (35)
Votes (2)

 

Defro

Pro

I have seen your recent debate with "legodude123" and I find him a poor representative for Goku's side. He has given a few false pieces information and I feel he is biased. I would like to challenge you to a debate of the same topic. I am quite familiar with both the Superman Comics and the Dragon Ball comics, therefore I should be a good challenger. I will try my best to be fair and I hope not to disappoint you, as you seem to be an overwhelmingly strong contender and I am quite new to this debate medium.

Your previous challenger mentioned that he would be using all forms of Goku. I will be all his forms except SS4, because it is fake and part of a fan-made comic that Akira Toriyama (the creator of Dragon Ball) had no part in and mentioned himself that he despised it.

To be a fair contender, I have not read any of your statements in your previous debate with "legodude123" and have simply scrolled through his statements. Please accept this challenge. All I want is a friendly debate. Please call me out on whatever false information I provide about Superman because though I am familiar with him, I am not a Superman expert. Also please tell me if I'm doing anything wrong because I am new to this site.

I believe how it goes is I make the first round for acceptance?
Jay-D

Con

I graciously accept the challenge. I look forward to a very interesting debate.
The first round is for acceptance only. Since Pro says he's new to the site, I'll take the liberty of laying down the ground rules for this debate, which has been agreed upon by my opponent.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


Rules

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

-I will be arguing that if Goku and Superman fight, Superman will most likely win i.e. no loss, no tie.

-No trolling, and preferably, no plagiarism.

-No new arguments or belittling the opponent's arguments in the comments section once the debate is over.

-The fight is one-on-one i.e. neither Goku nor Superman receives any help from CORPOREAL beings.
For example:
Korin/Yajirobe for senzu beans
Goku's friends who lend power for Spirit Bomb/SSJ god ritual/Broly KO punch or anything else
Help from Green lantern to pull large objects (such as planets etc.)
Drawing power/speed from the Speed Force shared by the Flash

-I can use any form of Superman except Superman Prime. Also, in all presented scenarios and comparisons, Superman won't wield the Sword of Superman.

-My opponent can use any form of Goku (even SSJ god if he can prove it doesn't violate above rules), except SSJ 4 as stated by Pro himself.


-In all presented scenarios and comparisons, Goku is allowed to use his power pole (Nyoi-Bo).

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


These terms have been agreed upon by Pro. In any case, I would like Pro to attest to the above rules at the start of round 2.

I wish my opponent good luck, and eagerly await his opening arguments in the next round.
Debate Round No. 1
Defro

Pro

I attest to the rules given by Con.

First I would like to start by asking Con for his or her definition of defeating someone in a fight, this will be relevant in future rounds.

My argument is that in a fight, Goku can defeat Superman, if not equally match him. I will start by arguing why I think Goku can equally match Superman.

-I believe their physical capabilities are similar. They are both strong enough to push planets out of their orbital tract. I am aware that in terms of brute strength, Superman is stronger as his strength is essentially limitless while Goku has a limit to his strength. However, I believe that once their levels of brute strength has surpassed a certain extent, it wouldn't matter. Lighting a candle with fire from a large bonfire would not make the candle's flame larger than if the candle was lit from a lighter or match. While Superman is stronger than Goku in brute strength, their strengths are strong enough that it doesn't matter. If they were to fight in conditions of 500 times the gravity of Earth, both heroes would hardly be bothered by it. Both heroes would be equally unaffected by it, though Superman is stronger.

-It is true that because Superman's brute strength is stronger than Goku's, he will pack a harder blow than Goku. However this will not give Superman much of an advantage because in a fight brute strength isn't everything and a good martial artist is able to defeat an opponent with more strength through various techniques. It just so happens, that Goku is an expert martial artist. When two men who have similar capabilities and strength levels and can fly, the one with more knowledge in martial arts will most likely have the advantage. As a child, Goku has defeated countless opponents with more brute strength than him. I am aware that Superman has trained under a certain martial art at some point, however in terms of martial art skills, he is an amateur, when compared with Goku, who has trained all his life on Earth, in Heaven, in Hell, and in several alien planets. Therefore I believe superman's advantage in brute strength is canceled off by Goku's martial arts skills and the fact that Goku has a tremendous amount of brute strength himself.

-Superman's powers match Goku's. Based on my knowledge, these are the powers he possess. Correct me if I'm wrong or missing anything.
--Solar Energy Absorption
--Superhuman Strength
--Invulnerablility
--Healing Factor
--Flight
--Superhuman Speed
--X-Ray Vision
--Heat Vision
--Superhuman Breath
--Superhuman Hearing
--Superhuman Vision
--Superhuman Olfaction (Sense of Smell)

-Goku's capabilities roughly matches those of Superman's:
--He can absorb the Sun's energy into a spirit bomb
--Superhuman Strength
--He is just as invulnerable to heat and cold as superman
--He heals at a fast rate although not as fast as superman. However this is made up for his incredible endurance. Con has prohibited me from bringing up senzu beans, and I now completely agree. If Goku were to have in his pockets senzu beans, which heal him, they wouldn't help him because Superman, being the smart man he is, would have burned them off with his heat vision. Also, Goku would offer one to Superman out of guilt of cheating had he eaten one.
--Flight
--Superhuman Speed
--Instead of heat vision, he is capable of ki blasts, which are just as destructive.
--He cannot manipulate the air with his breath, but he has been able to manipulate the air through other means. Before the Dragon Ball Z Saga, in the original Dragon Ball series (when he was a child), he was able to punch the air so hard, he created a wave that hit his opponent far away. He was also able to generate whirlwinds by spinning.
--He has superhuman vision and hearing, but it is not as impressive as superman's. Instead, he makes up for it by being able to sense ki, which is more reliable than sight and hearing.
--He also has an incredible sense of smell. As a child, he was able to find a rock thrown from a cliff into a large jungle by following it's scent.

-On top of all this, Con has graciously allowed for Goku to have in his possession his Nyoi-Bo, which is a magical staff that theoretically can extend infinitely. I believe that this and his skills in martial arts would suffice for Goku to counter Superman's advantage in brute strength.

-Con has given me the chance to prove that Goku's SSJ god does not violate above rules. I will try so that I can use this as an argument in future rounds. SSJ god is a form Goku achieved through a ritual that required 5 other Saiyans. However, he doesn't receive any PHYSICAL help from them. He simply absorbs their energy, just like Superman absorbs energy from the sun. Also it is a one time ritual and after that he can achieve his god state without the help of any CORPOREAL beings. Therefore, during a fight, assuming it is a fight that occurred after the day of the ritural, he could achieve this state spontaneously by himself without having to do the ritual.

*These are my arguments as to why I believe Goku would equally match Superman in a fight. I shall state the reasons why I think he can win in the next round.
Jay-D

Con

My opponent has asked me what I would define as "defeating in a fight" in this debate. For future rounds, a fighter shall be declared as "defeated" if he is unable to continue fighting for AT LEAST A MINUTE.

I shall now proceed to provide my rebuttals.

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Rebuttals

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Pro says, I believe that once their levels of brute strength has surpassed a certain extent, it wouldn't matter. Lighting a candle with fire from a large bonfire would not make the candle's flame larger than if the candle was lit from a lighter or match.

I believe that the above mentioned analogy is irrelevant to the point Pro was trying to make, which was that Goku can equally match Superman.

In this analogy, what is to be inferred is NOT the ability of the bonfire and the lighter to light a candle. It is the strength of the bonfire relative to the lighter. It should be remembered, that Goku and Superman are fighting EACH OTHER, and not displaying feats of strength to passive spectators.

Therefore, when they fight each other for strength, Superman's advantage in strength will go a long way in helping him win.
As far as the analogy of the bonfire and the lighter/match is concerned, one can infer that the bonfire consumes the lighter, the match, or even the candle for that matter.

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It just so happens, that Goku is an expert martial artist.

Goku was born in age 737. In the Dragon Ball Z Series, Buu was killed in age 774. Goku left to train with Uub in age 784. That makes him 47 years old.

Source: http://dragonball.wikia.com...

Goku has entered the hyperbolic time chamber twice, and if we add one year for both times, that makes Goku at most 49 years old.

Now, in The Dark Knight Returns, Bruce Wayne is 55 years old. Since he and Superman are about the same age, Superman is definitely more than 50 years old in that edition, and there are some in which he's even older.

Therefore, it can be stated that Superman is considerably older than Goku.

Superman has trained under a certain martial art at some point, however in terms of martial art skills, he is an amateur, when compared with Goku...

This is a gross understatement. As far as martial arts disciplines are concerned, Goku is confirmed to have learned the following styles:

Basic fighting/Kung-fu from grandpa Gohan
Kame Sennin style from Roshi
Karin training (which is basically just a running exercise to increase speed) from Karin
Kami-Sama style from Kami
Kaio Ken Style from North Kai

http://www.angelfire.com...

This means that Goku knows four, at most five styles, if you count Karin's training.

Superman, on the other hand, has been confirmed to have trained with the following:

Mongul II
Wonder Woman
Wildcat
Batman (Bruce Wayne)
Jor-El (taught him kryptonian styles)

http://www.superherodb.com...

All of the people mentioned above are master combatants of MANY martial arts disciplines. The number 127 is well known as the number of martial arts styles known to Bruce Wayne.


Superman's analytical and computational abilities are many times greater than humans, and, of course, saiyans, whose intelligence is quite unremarkable. As such, it wouldn't be too far-fetched to say that Superman has mastered at least a tenth of Wayne's arsenal. That would include some of the most well-known and useful styles of martial arts, such as Judo, Muay Thai, Krav Maga, Tai Chi etc.

Even if Goku trained since the age of one, there's no way he can surpass all of Superman's (who's certainly older and has PROBABLY learned more disciplines) martial arts prowess.

Contrary to popular belief, Superman is actually an extremely well-trained martial artist. He just hasn't gotten the chance to use those skills too often.

In the unlikely event that Goku DOES surpass Superman's martial arts, the advantage that Goku would get which my opponent is talking about is mostly about locks, holds and pins in close combat.

In any case, to achieve such an advantage against such an overwhelming opponent requires a great deal of SPEED AND QUICKNESS, and it is pretty well-established that Superman is quicker than Goku due to heightened senses and motor functions.

In conclusion, any advantage Goku has due to his martial arts prowess (this is assuming he's superior to Superman in martial arts, which the above statements render doubtful), would be essentially useless since Goku does not have an advantage over Superman in speed.


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...Goku to have in his possession his Nyoi-Bo.... I believe that this and his skills in martial arts would suffice for Goku to counter Superman's advantage in brute strength.

While it is true that the Nyoi-Bo can extend (theoretically) infinitely (at least as much as the distance between earth and the moon), the staff is NOT UNBREAKABLE. It is probably for this very reason that Goku abandoned it once he grew strong.


And if it isn't much use to Goku, then it can definitely be broken by Superman.

As I have already shown how Goku does not have a considerable advantage against Superman due to his martial arts, I can safely state that the Nyoi-Bo cannot counter Superman's advantage either.

----------------------------------------------------

I agree with almost all the powers and abilities of both Superman and Goku that have been stated by Pro. However, the following anomalies must be rectified:

...he makes up for it by being able to sense ki, which is more reliable than sight and hearing.

That may be true, but Ki sensing is only good for sniping and long-range awareness. It is NOT going to do Goku any good in combat. Whereas, Superman's heightened senses can easily see into an opponent's anatomy and perceive muscle movement, allowing him to effectively predict said opponent's maneuvers.


He heals at a fast rate although not as fast as superman. However this is made up for his incredible endurance.

Goku is incredibly well-toned and has great endurance. However, he is still prone to fatigue. This is NOT true in Superman's case, who is immune to fatigue as long as he is tapped into his energy reservoir.
This is a great disadvantage to Goku, who faces a stronger, faster opponent who's not a dummy with martial arts either.


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Also it is a one time ritual and after that he can achieve his god state without the help of any CORPOREAL beings.

I do not think that this is confirmed yet. It is equally probable that SSJ God form requires help everytime.


What further cements my belief is Vegeta calling dibs for the next time they fight. Therefore, the statement that Goku can achieve SSJ God at will is on very shaky ground.

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Addenda

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Speed

Goku does not have an advantage over Superman in speed. If his quickness is, at best considered equal to Superman's, he still loses out on better senses.

As I stated earlier, Superman's heightened senses, mostly his sight, give him a solid advantage in combat.

----------------------------------------------------

Vitality

Superman has an amazing healing factor, which heals most injuries almost instantaneously. It is many times superior to Goku's, and plays a pivotal role in a test of endurance.

Also, Superman works at 100% efficiency, provided he is under nourishment from a yellow sun. Goku, on the other hand, is prone to fatigue.

Hence, even though Goku has shown remarkable tenacity, it counts for almost nothing when he faces Superman.

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

This is all I have to state for now. I believe I have adequately refuted Pro's arguments. I await his subsequent arguments, and rebuttals, if any, in round 3.
Debate Round No. 2
Defro

Pro

I concede to the fact that my analogy was poor. However, I am still convinced that Goku has made up in the lack of brute strength with his martial arts and his staff.

Counter Rebuttals
The video is related to the last counter rebuttal I make in this round. You don't have to watch it if you want, because I summaraized it in the rebuttal. And only at the start of 3:43 does it relate. Please read through my counter rebuttal before watching it.

___________________________________________________________________________


Superman is considerably older than Goku.

*I am assuming that con organizes his rebuttals by stating a statement made by me in italic font and underlined and refuting it in the next line. I am afraid I do not follow the reasoning of con. Con has restated my statement about Goku being an expert martial artist but continued by speaking of the respective ages of the two heroes. Simpling stating that Superman is considerable older than Goku, which he is not (55 - 46 = 6), does not refute my argument that Goku is very skilled in martial arts. I also don't find it very relevant. I am assuming this is some sort of typing mistake, as in maybe you actually properly refuted my statement, but unknowingly deleted your refutation.


Goku knows 4, at most 5 styles

*Note that having the knowledge of more styles does not mean superiority in a fight. It is not the about quantity, but the quality. A man greatly skilled in one style can defeat a man whos poorly or mediocrely skilled in 10 styles. Why, Vegeta, Goku's rival, never learned martial arts but simply fought how he felt he should fight and he has defeated Goku the first time they encountered.

*Also, Goku has learned more than that. He has also learned from:
- The Grand Kai
- The Supreme Kai also taught him a few tricks
- Not to mention that he spent two years traveling the universe, visiting various planets and learning from their inhabitants.


Even if Goku trained since the age of one, there's no way he can surpass all of Superman's martial arts prowess.

*Note also that if Superman were to fight Goku in a match where they use MARIAL ARTS ALONE, he wouldn't be able to use his powers. Howerver, Goku would be able to use his powers, such as his ki blasts, because they are part of his martial art. Every technique Goku uses, every trick up his sleeve, are fruits of his training. I doubt Superman's level in martial arts is far enough to do that yet. But he doesn't need to be as advanced in martial arts because he is born with those powers. However, I still stand corected: Goku's martial arts skills are far more advanced than Superman's. I doubt that in Batman's or Wonder Woman's martial arts courses they taught Superman how to generate enough energy to destroy a planet or how to absorb the suns energy. Again, of course, he doesn't need to learn this, as he already can do that. But he isn't able to do that through means of martial arts. Goku can, therefore it is undeniable that Goku's martial arts skills are better than superman's. It is the whole reason why people like to debate over who would win over the two of them: Superman's born powers vs Goku's learned powers. Goku doesn't have any special powers he was born with, his abilities were trained into him through martial arts.

*I do not deny that Superman is a well-trained martial artist. However, he has not been trained as well as Goku because he has powers he was born with.

*Let's put it this way. If Superman lost all his powers but remembers his martial arts, his skills would be like Jackie Chan's or Bruce Lee's. However, he wouldn't be able to do the things that Goku is able to do with martial arts like fly and shoot destructive energy blasts. This proves that Goku's expertise in martial arts is superior than Superman's.

Goku does not have an advantage over Superman in speed

*Speed is not an issue for Goku because he has instant transmission aka teleportation. Therefore, no matter how fast it takes for Superman to get from point A to point B, Goku can always reach there first because instant transmission means that it takes LITERALLY no time for Goku to get to point B, whereas Superman will get there at a speed so fast, it's almost the same as reaching point B in NO TIME, but there is a small time lapse between his departure and arrival, no matter how small.
*It is true that instant transmission takes a lot of concentration for Goku so he never used it in a fight. However, in his battle with Bills, after he achieved his SSJ God Form, he used it frequently because he couldn't keep up with Bills' speed, doing one instant transmission right after another. This means that by that point, Goku has trained his mental concentration to the point where he can use instant transmission easily. Note that when he was using his instant transmission to keep up with Bills, he was not in SSJ God form, so it doesn't violate any rules. And even he was in SSJ God form, it would violate the rules because he is able to gain the state without the ritual and he DOES this on TV, in front of viewers, therefore the statement that Goku can achieve SSJ God at will is not on shaky grounds because several people watched it and confirmed watching him achieving the state without having to hold hands with corporeal beings.

Goku's staff

*While it is not unbreakable, it is incredibly durable and able to hurt superman. Goku did not abandon it, he merely left in on top of Karin's tower so they could use the staff as a climbing pole to Kami's sanctum, which is miles above Karin's tower.

Superman's heightened senses can easily see into an opponent's anatomy and perceive muscle movement, allowing him to effectively predict said opponent's maneuvers.

*Goku can predict opponent maneuvers as well by sensing their ki. In this way his senses are better than Superman's because he does not rely on his eyes. I will provide a link to a youtube video of a fight Goku had in his teenage years where he demonstrates this at 3:43. It's up to you whether you want to watch it or not, but I will briefly summarize what happens at 3:43. His opponent created clones of himself, so Goku created a flash of light that blinded both he and his opponenet. His opponenet mocked him because he too would have trouble seeing. However, he was able to orally predict that there were two of his opponent's clones behind him and one was about to maneuver a knife hand attack while the other, a round house kick. He did this without his eyes, which you stated Superman needs to SEE his opponent's muscle movement. In this way, GOKU'S SENSES ARE MORE EFFECTIVE THAN SUPERMAN'S.



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Addenda

Speed
Because of his ablility to use instant transmission with ease like he did with Bills, it is safe to say that Goku is faster than Superman because Superman can't magically teleport and must physically fly there at a ridiculous amount of speed. However no matter how speedy he is, it is not possible for him to get to anywhere in literally NO TIME like Goku does because according to the natural law that it takes time to movie from point A to point B.

Weakness
Superman's weakness is kryptonite. Kryptonite is radioactive, therefore it emits ionizing radiation or particles, which is basically emitting energy. Goku can sense all energy (ki) and locate where it is coming from. Theoretically, Goku can use instant transmission to the source of the kryptonite and come back in an instant. However, this is not only cheap, but unrealistic. Goku would not know which ki is the ki of kryptonite, therefore he would have to teleport several times before finding the real source, and he would never take advantage of his opponent like that, just like Superman won't take advantage of him (right? :D) I am just stating that Superman has a weakness that can easily be exploited in a fight by someone like Goku.

Goku's only weakness was his tail. A squeeze on his tail, and he'd almost faint. However, at the age of 13, he trained his tail to be able to endure it when it is being squeezed, and before he became a teen, Kami permanently cut it off, leaving him with no physical weakness.
Jay-D

Con

My opponent has conceded to his analogy being poorly constructed. I shall now proceed to disprove his subsequent argument and show why Goku's advantage in martial arts cannot counter Superman's advantage in brute strength, and also why Goku does not hold an advantage but a disadvantage against Superman in terms of speed.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


Rebuttals

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Simpling stating that Superman is considerable older than Goku, which he is not (55 - 46 = 6), does not refute my argument that Goku is very skilled in martial arts.

Indeed, it does not. The argument that Superman is older than Goku, was, and still is, one of the constructs in my rebuttal, and it serves to show that even if Goku has trained longer than Superman, his sheer training time is not SO LONG that it can give him a huge advantage.

So, it is definitely not a typing mistake. What I meant to say is that for Goku to achieve required advantage in martial arts to counter Superman's advantage in brute strength, Goku must be at least 20-30 years older to compensate for time alone. I shall back this up in the next few rebuttals.

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A man greatly skilled in one style can defeat a man whos poorly or mediocrely skilled in 10 styles.

That is also true, but Pro seems to forget that it's SUPERMAN we're talking about. Even if he hasn't trained for a long periods, he can completely master a martial arts form by simple observation or one-time practice. Reasons:


-Superman's analytical and computational abilities are many times higher than average humans.
Therefore, by only watching a fighter use his moves, Superman can easily record and analyze it. All that is left is for him to reciprocate it.


-Superman has PERFECT control of his body, as a result of intense meditation. In fact, he is trained in Torquasm Rao which actually allows him to fight on the astral plane.
Therefore, once Superman has recorded the principles and moves of a certain martial arts style, he would have no difficulty in reciprocating it.


Hence, there is no question of Superman being poorly trained in martial arts.

---------------------------------------------

Also, Goku has learned more than that. He has also learned from:
- The Grand Kai
- The Supreme Kai also taught him a few tricks
- Not to mention that he spent two years traveling the universe, visiting various planets and learning from their inhabitants.


I doubt that Grand Kai and Supreme Kai gave Goku any formal training. None of the above statements are confirmed. As such, I will not believe Pro's statement until he provides sources to back it up.

As for his travels, the only things he is shown to have learned are the instant transmission technique and the metamorese fusion dance.

All these statements still fail to prove how Goku can get an overwhelming advantage over Superman to counter his strength. As I have already mentioned, it is only possible to defeat a stronger opponent if one can manage to lock or pin down the opponent.
If the opponent already knows how to counter such maneuvers, then having superior martial arts is useless.

Hence, Superman, being very well-trained in close combat, should not find a big challenge from Goku.


---------------------------------------------

Let's put it this way. If Superman lost all his powers but remembers his martial arts, his skills would be like Jackie Chan's or Bruce Lee's. However, he wouldn't be able to do the things that Goku is able to do with martial arts like fly and shoot destructive energy blasts.

Excuse me, but I really fail to see how "fly" and "shoot destructive energy blasts" have anything to do with martial arts.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com...

If Goku relies solely on martial arts, he would be no better than Jackie Chan and Bruce Lee either. I believe that this argument made by Pro is fallacious, and hence it definitely fails to prove that Goku's martial arts are superior to Superman's.

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Speed is not an issue for Goku because he has instant transmission aka teleportation...
...Superman will get there at a speed so fast... but there is a small time lapse between his departure and arrival, no matter how small.

The time lapse that has been described by Pro does not exist, as Pre-Crisis Superman has been known to travel at infinite speed.

http://www.comicvine.com...

In the above source, it is quoted in speed that Pre-Crisis Superman flew fast enough to exceed the barrier of his universe, and hence achieved INFINITE SPEED. Therefore, if his speed is infinite, then travel is INSTANT.

For those who do not believe the source, please have a look at this picture:





Sorry about the bad quality. I'll explain the events:


-Superman travels faster than light INSIDE AN OFFICE.
-He creates no impact whatsoever, which is impossible by the laws of physics. At that speed, he should've created a massive sonicboom, which he didn't.
-The only possible conclusion is that Superman entered Hyperspace, which enabled instant travel.

Therefore, we can conclude that Superman's top speed is just as high as Goku's, which is infinity. Thus, Goku still has no advantage over Superman in speed.

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Pro's comments about Goku's Nyoi-Bo:

While it is not unbreakable, it is incredibly durable and able to hurt superman.

I HIGHLY doubt this. Reasons:

-It is never said that the Nyoi-Bo is unbreakable.
-It is explicitly stated that the Z-SWORD was unbreakable.
-The Z-Sword was broken by Super Gohan.





-Goku is much stronger than Super Gohan.

-Superman is much stronger/durable than Goku.

Therefore, I conclude that the Nyoi-Bo cannot hurt Superman, and will probably be broken the moment Goku uses it.

Goku did not abandon it, he merely left in on top of Karin's tower...

After which he started flying to Kami's lookout and stopped using the pole. I'm pretty sure that is classsified as "abandoning" it.


---------------------------------------------

Goku can predict opponent maneuvers as well by sensing their ki.

I do not believe this is possible.
http://powerlisting.wikia.com...

In the Dragon Ball universe, the Ki sense only allows one to sense another's PRESENCE, and it can be likened to "sight for the blind".





Therefore, the best that can be achieved by Ki sensing is seeing an opponent move, just like in the case of ordinary sight. The only advantage achieved is that this can be done from far away.


Ki sensing CANNOT perceive minute movements of the muscles in the body. Hence, the statement made by my opponent is false.

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Goku created a flash of light that blinded both he and his opponenet...
...However, he was able to orally predict...

...He did this without his eyes, which you stated Superman needs to SEE his opponent's muscle movement.

It seems my opponent does not fully understand the limits of Superman's enhanced sight.
THERE ARE NO LIMITS TO HIS SIGHT. I'll explain.

http://www.superherodb.com...

If you read under the "Super Vision" heading, you will find that Superman can see into the entire electromagnetic spectrum.


This enables him to:
-See light waves travel as they were.
-Identify different light wavelengths.
-Isolate all other wavelengths to concentrate on a specific set.

This ability ensures that Superman is never blinded, and his sharp sight is never compromised.


In this way, GOKU'S SENSES ARE MORE EFFECTIVE THAN SUPERMAN'S.


Most definitely not, as I just proved.

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Pro's comments on Goku independently achieving SSJ God form:

...he DOES this on TV, in front of viewers, therefore the statement that Goku can achieve SSJ God at will is not on shaky grounds because several people watched it and confirmed...

While it is true that Goku independently managed to achieve SSJ God form ONCE, it is disadvantageous to him, because:

-It was triggered by a highly emotional response. His loved ones cried out for him and he tried to overcome despair.
This is a direct snap from the moment:






-He lost consciousness after about a minute i.e. self-transformation is extremely exhausting.





In a fight against an opponent like Superman, Goku simply cannot win out of such a gamble.

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Goku can use instant transmission to the source of the kryptonite and come back in an instant.

This is another shaky statement made by Pro. Reasons:


-No one can sense the Ki of the androids.
-No one can sense the ki of Gods or of anyone in SSJ God form.

Therefore, not all types of energy can be sensed by Goku (or anyone in the DB universe), and it is wrong to assume that Goku can sense Kryptonite.


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Addendum

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

I have proved that Superman is capable of instant travel just like Goku. I'll now prove how Goku is at a disadvantage in speed.


It is true that Superman and Goku have the same top speed, which is infinity. However, Goku has to assume a stance when using instant transmission. Here's a snap from the movie "DBZ:Battle of Gods":





Instant transmission may be instant, but Goku still requires to move his fingers to his forehead (and back), which DOES require time.

This gives him a great disadvantage against Superman, to whom infinite speed comes naturally.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

This is all I have to say for now. I await my opponent's response in round 4.
Debate Round No. 3
Defro

Pro

Rebuttals

his sheer training time is not SO LONG that it can give him a huge advantage.
*Again, I would like to remind Con that it is more about the quality of something rather the quantity or length. I believe Goku's training was much more intense and difficult than Superman's. I doubt Batman's lessons to Superman ON EARTHwould be harder than Goku's training in 100x Earth's Gravity. I believe that while his sheer training time is not SO LONG, it definitely makes up for it with it's intensity and the fact that each time he trains, he improves significantly.

once Superman has recorded the principles and moves of a certain martial arts style, he would have no difficulty in reciprocating it.
*Goku has been able to do this since childhood, copying the moves of others. He sucessfully performed his first Kamehameha wave after seeing it done once by Roshi. Like Superman, Goku also has perfect body control, which are fruits from his intense training. Goku can do all of these just as easily as superman. Also, what good is reciprocating your opponent? Goku was able to defeat an exact (if not stronger) copy of himself when he was a child, though he struggled a lot as the copy never tired like Goku.



it is only possible to defeat a stronger opponent if one can manage to lock or pin down the opponent.
*That is not true. You can defeat a stronger opponent with speed and skill. We are already debating the topic of speed, which I will continue later on, therefore I must convince Con that Goku is more skillful in the art of fighting.

If the opponent already knows how to counter such maneuvers, then having superior martial arts is useless.
*Does this mean that Con has implied or conceded that Goku's martial arts skills are superior? If not, I shall try to convince Con that they are in the next passage.

I really fail to see how "fly" and "shoot destructive energy blasts" have anything to do with martial arts.
*They are part of Goku's martial art. He's learned these skill through martial arts, therefore, they are martial arts skills. However, to be able to achieve the ability to fly and manipulate ki, a martial artist must reach a certain level of skill, which superman hasn't (but doesn't need to). Even if Superman HAS achieved this level of skill in martial arts, he would not further advance his skills in martial art by learning the ability to fly with ki and manipulate his ki. Furthermore, these skill are needed in order to advance even farther in martial arts, which Goku has done. Because superman did not proceed his training to learn the ability to manipulate ki at will, his skills in martial arts cannot improve past that point, but Goku's has. This should mean that Goku's skills in martial arts surpasses Superman's.

If the opponent already knows how to counter such maneuvers, then having superior martial arts is useless.
*I don't believe this to be true. To knowhow to counter is different from being ableto counter. I am sure both Con and I have in our brains the knowledge of how to block or dodge a punch or a kick. However, if we were in a fight against someone with superior fighting skills, that does not neccessarily mean we will not take a blow from a punch or kick. Let's say Superman is in a situation where all his limbs are preoccupied and Goku throws a punch at him. Superman sees it coming and knows how to counter it, but unfortunately he can't. If Con's statement were true, there would be no such thing as "superior" martial arts, therefore Con's statment contradicts itself.

Superman entered Hyperspace, which enabledinstant travel.
*We have a problem here, because through a quick google search I found a respectable site with information about Superman's capabilities and the contents highly contradict your statements about Superman's speed. According to this site, in Pre-Crisis Superman, I quote, "Superman's speed increased to the point where he could travel faster than light. Several stories depict him traversing great distances through space to other solar systems and distant galaxies and even other universes. He could cross our own solar system in minutes."
*Acording to my source, he was even slower in Post-Crisis, Golden Age, and Modern Era.

www.superman.wikia.com/wiki/Superman's_Powers_and_Abilities

Superman can see into the entire electromagnetic spectrum.
*This only proves that he cannot be blinded by light, but what about the absence of light? No matter how adaptable his eyes are, there is no way he can see anything when there is no light at all, in complete darkness. In a fight between Goku and Superman, we must assume that their fight can take place anywhere in the universe, because of their speed and strength, they will destroy planets and might resort to fighting in space. Theoretically, they could be fighting in a BLACK HOLE, in which LIGHT IS SUCKED AWAY, LEAVING COMPLETE DARKENESS. There is no part of the electromagnetic spectrum that he can see because it is all sucked away. I doubt X-ray vision will help. How can he SEE THROUGH NO LIGHT? Furthermore, he can't hear anything either because sound doesn't exist in space and if Superman were able to hear sound in space, sound be slower than light, would also get sucked by the black hole.However, Goku wouldn't be affected as critically because he DOESN'T RELY ON HIS EYESand can sense superman's ki and fight him.
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Adendum

-I have proved that Goku's skill in martial arts IS in fact superior to Supermans, evening out the advantage Superman has in brute strength, which isn't that much to begin with. I believe it is fair to say that the difference between their strength is like the difference between the strengths of a twenty year old man and a 10 year old boy.
-I have refuted Con's claim that Superman is INFINITELY FAST and proved that Goku is faster.
-I have proved that Superman CAN BE BLINDED, while Goku, who doesn't need to rely on his eyes, can utilize this advantage.

-I shall now make another shaky statment for the fun of it :D.
* Con has mentioned that it does take time for Goku to bring his fingers to his forehead to perform instant transmission. What if, say he keeps his fingers on his forehead like that constantly without letting go after his first teleportation? Say he would focus on all the ki's in the universe, because he can only teleport instantly to somewhere near a ki source. Theoretically, this can result in Goku traveling instantly and randomly to all places in the world with ki. This would mean, theoretically, he would be able to travel to ALL PLACES with ki IN LITERALLY NO TIME. Now it is very possible that he would have transported to an area with Kryptonite nearby, which he could bring back to Superman as a gift. This is very large scale, but note that there is asubstantial ammount of kyrptonite ON EARTH, therefore, theoretically, Goku can find kryptonite on earth by teleporting everywhere to look for some, which he can use against Superman.

***Of course I am not serious about this. This is only a joke and I do not expect Con to comment on this. It was just something funny that came across my mind that I wanted to share.



*I would now like to make point as something viewers and Con can think about for fun. Though it is relevant, it is not to be connected or integrated into the debate in any way. Goku has the tendencey to overcome and defeat opponents stronger than him, no matter how much stronger. Superman is theoretically, infinitely strong. Now in a fight between a man who defeats people stronger than him and a man who is infinitely stronger, what will happen? I believe this topic has been debated regularly because it creates a sort of paradox. Kind of like the chicken and the egg dilema. Or if I asked you that if you invented a time machine in 2014 and traveled back to 1990 and from there used the machine to travel back to 2014, when was the first time travel? Just a fun thought :D

Jay-D

Con

My opponent has made multiple fallacious arguments, which I shall now refute. In this round, I shall show:
-why Superman's senses are superior in combat,
-why Goku's martial arts does not defeat Superman's collective prowess of martial arts and strength,
-and that Goku does not have an advantage against Superman in speed.

Also, Pro has made a light argument about a scenario in which it is impossible for Superman to win as Goku fetches kryptonite. Although he doesn't expect me to comment on it, I cannot allow it to go unrefuted, as it is a part of his debate argument.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


Rebuttals

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


I doubt Batman's lessons to Superman ON EARTH would be harder than Goku's training in 100x Earth's Gravity.


Pro has contradicted himself at the very beginning of his argument. I state this, because Pro also mentioned:
it is more about the quality of something rather the quantity or length.

Now, if Pro asserts that quality trumps quantity, he is inadvertently supporting MY argument, because:

-on one hand, we have Goku working up a huge sweat in 100 times earth's gravity,
-and on the other, we have Superman training under Bruce Wayne, who is definitely one of the very best and most knowledgeable martial artists ever, albeit not for long.

So, if Superman trains for a week with Bruce Wayne, another with Diana Prince (Wonder Woman), and another with Mongul II, isn't the quality of HIS martial arts better than Goku's?

--------------------------------------------------

Refutation of Pro's statements backing his claim of flying and energy control being a part of martial arts:

They are part of Goku's martial art. He's learned these skill through martial arts...

The argument which these statements refer to is inherently wrong. In the Dragon Ball universe, flight and energy control are gained through CONCENTRATION, and NOT MARTIAL ARTS training.

1) Flight

-Flight is achieved by concentrating one's energy in a thrust to the extremities of one's body, most frequently the feet.
-Learning to fly has no relation to martial arts. Flight is a supplement to one's martial arts skills, but martial arts training has nothing to do with it.
-As such, flight is only indirectly associated with martial arts, whereas it has its origins in meditation.

Source: Gohan teaching Videl and Goten.





2) Energy control (Ki attacks)

-While it's true that some martial arts styles, like Kaio Ken, involve Ki manipulation, the origin of energy control also lies in meditation.
-This is attested to by Gohan teaching Videl to concentrate, and she creates her first energy sphere.

--------------------------------------------------


Referring to Superman's ability to instantly record and learn fight maneuvers, Pro states:

Goku has been able to do this since childhood...
...Like Superman, Goku also has perfect body control, which are fruits from his intense training. Goku can do all of these just as easily as superman.

This is only partly true. Goku has admirable control of his body by virtue of intense training, but IT IS NOT PERFECT.

Once Goku learns something new, he needs to train for long periods of time before he can master them. Proof:

1) Goku took about 130 days (most likely 128 or less) to master the Kaio Ken and the spirit bomb, while he was with North Kai.
The fact that he learned the kamehameha in seconds is only because it was a very elementary technique.
One must also not forget that it was extremely weak.

2) Goku has trained for copious amounts of time to last longer as a Super Saiyan/2/3.

Superman has no such constraints. He instantly masters anything once he experiences it.
He's practically a perpetual motion machine. He works at 100% all the time. All he needs is his beloved sun.

Hence, as I have just proved, Goku definitely CANNOT do all of these just as easily as superman.

Also, what good is reciprocating your opponent?

I'm afraid Pro has misunderstood me. I wasn't talking about reciprocating one's opponent, but about reciprocating one's trainer to obtain new knowledge.


--------------------------------------------------

Pro's rebuttal on my argument about Superman being infinitely fast:

We have a problem here, because through a quick google search I found a respectable site with information about Superman's capabilities...
Source provided by Pro: www.superman.wikia.com/wiki/Superman's_Powers_and_Abilities

To begin with, the above source must be considered as unreliable. I shall now provide a valid refutation of this.

Superman is capable of travelling not only forwards, but also BACKWARDS IN TIME. He once went to his home planet Krypton before it was destroyed.




Source: http://supermanhomepage.com...


Thus, Superman can affect an event BEFORE it occurs. An infinite quantity is defined as that which exceeds every possible value, and then exceeds even that.

Therefore, in my opinion, Superman's speed definitely counts as infinite.

-------------------------------------------------

To know how to counter is different from being able to counter.

This is not true if one is faster than his opponent. What will Goku do if Superman goes back in time? His move will be stopped even before it is made.

Let's say Superman is in a situation where all his limbs are preoccupied...

I'm deeply intrigued by this statement, and as such, I'm forced to ask Pro: HOW?

Goku isn't someone with 4 (or more) hands, and neither is he capable of performing magic to bind Superman or something. I'm sorry, but I can't find any possibility of Pro's statement being true.

Superman sees it coming and knows how to counter it, but unfortunately he can't.

I just backed up my claim to Superman being infinitely fast, by virtue of him being able to travel back in time, making Superman ipso facto capable of countering Goku's move(s).

--------------------------------------------------

Refutation of Pro's hypothesis about Superman being "blinded" by Goku.

Theoretically, they could be fighting in a BLACK HOLE, in which LIGHT IS SUCKED AWAY, LEAVING COMPLETE DARKENESS.

This is entirely possible. I agreed with Pro right up to this point. However, his subsequent statements, are once again, inherently wrong:

There is no part of the electromagnetic spectrum that he can see because it is all sucked away. I doubt X-ray vision will help. How can he SEE THROUGH NO LIGHT?

I'm afraid Pro knows little about black holes. It is a fact that black holes emit intense amounts of radiation, ESPECIALLY X-RAYS. This was proved by well-known scientist Stephen Hawking.
http://www.universetoday.com...

The reflection, refraction, and other path changes of this radiation can very easily help Superman perceive his surroundings.

What Pro also doesn't seem to know is that living beings emit radiation as well.
http://discovermagazine.com...

Therefore, Superman isn't affected by this IN THE LEAST BIT.

It must be noted that Goku, however, might experience slight discomfort due to being robbed of his sight. After all, he isn't used to fighting in darkness.
While fighting near a black hole does not affect Goku physically, it CAN affect him psychologically. As such, Pro's argument seems to have backfired.

--------------------------------------------------

Refutation of Pro's scenario in which Goku finds kryptonite.

Now, Pro only presented this scenario with little seriousness, but I'm obligated to counter it, since it was present in his argument, and hence, is a part of the debate.

Say he would focus on all the ki's in the universe...
...T
his would mean, theoretically, he would be able to travel to ALL PLACES with ki IN LITERALLY NO TIME.

Once again, Pro has disregarded the soundness of his argument with the foundations of Physics, and this time, Biology as well.
My reasoning behind this:

-To travel to some place, Goku has to THINK of that place first.
-The thinking process would be done by his brain, which is equally (if not worse) developed as humans.
-The brain sends messages to the body by means of electrical impulses, the speed of which ranges between 0.9 to over 100 metres per second.
http://hypertextbook.com...
-Now, even if Goku has trained past the limits of his own body, and his brain functions faster, THERE IS STILL A LAG DUE TO HIS ACTION TIME.
-Superman, having a much more advanced brain, obviously has a MUCH SHORTER ACTION TIME.
-Therefore, Goku cannot outrun Superman and find kryptonite.
-Worst case scenario: Goku escapes, Superman travels back in time, and still catches Goku.

--------------------------------------------------

Side-statement made by Pro:

Goku has the tendencey to overcome and defeat opponents stronger than him, no matter how much stronger...
...Now in a fight between a man who defeats people stronger than him and a man who is infinitely stronger, what will happen?

Goku does not always win. He lost badly to Bills and Broly (he only beat Broly with SIGNIFICANT help). While it is uncertain that SSJ3 can surpass Broly, not even SSJ God can surpass Bills.
Hence, Goku is NOT a man who always defeats people stronger than him, but Superman IS infinitely strong.

One can infer what will happen if they fight.

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

In this round, I have shown that:

- Superman CANNOT be blinded no matter what, and hence his senses will ALWAYS be superior to Goku's.

- Superman can be considered to be infinitely fast, and definitely FASTER THAN GOKU.

- My opponent has failed to adequately prove that Goku's martial arts give him the upper hand.

I eagerly await Pro's response along with his conclusion in round 5.
Debate Round No. 4
Defro

Pro

Superman trains for a week with Bruce Wayne, another with Diana Prince (Wonder Woman), and another with Mongul II

No, the quality of his martial arts IS NOT better than Goku's. In a fight, Goku only relies on his martial arts skills, and I am certain that he is able to defeat the three mentioned characters, even if they have their gadgets, powers, and rings. I would like to ask Con whether he believs that if Superman lost all his powers but kept the skills and qualities he gained from his martial arts training, would he be able to defeat Goku? Note that Superman would lose his super strength and speed, whereas Goku still have sper strength and speed, because it came from his martial arts training.

Also, I am certain that the people Goku trained under is more superior in martial arts than the character's mentioned. Goku trained with Kami (Earth's God), King Kai (God of the entire Northern Galaxy), and the Grand Kai (God of all quadrants of the universe). I am positive that the skills Goku aquired from these characters are greater than the skills aquired from Batman, Wonder Woman, and Mongul.

Flight and energy control are gained through CONCENTRATION, and NOT MARTIAL ARTS training.

Ki manipulation and flight control are definitely part of martial arts skills, especially because concentration is required to aspire in martial arts. Therefore, by practicing martial arts, your concentration will increase, and if your concentration increases and you are in a fictional universe like Dragon Ball, you can be able to fly and manipulate Ki. While it's true that there is no concentration exercises or meditation in many forms of martial arts, it is a huge part of other martial art forms, in this case Goku's as well. I know it is not very proffessional to be personal in a debate, but I shall be semi-personal to try to convince Pro that concentration is in fact a part of martial arts because con's mentioning of concentration and martial arts gave me nostalgia.

I once trained in the art of taekwondo. My master was George Duong. And I consider this semi-personal because He will be my source, but he is a very reliable and credible source, having mastered Taekwondo, Wushu, Tai-Chi, and the art of Take-Down. I remember everytime we begin training, we would have 15 minutes of meditation. If questioned about it, he would say that meditation is a part of the martial arts he teaches because it calms the mind, making us more focused/concentrated. And it is this focus/concentration that is required for us to utilize his martial arts.
*this is an old picture of my former master.
You can view his credibility here: http://tkdwtc.com...


he needs to train for long periods of time before he can master them.

Con mentioned that Superman can learn anything after seeing it once. The Kaio Ken, Spirit Bomb, and Super Saiyan form are bad examples to disprove Goku's ability to do the same. King Kai has never performed the Kaio Ken or the Spirit Bomb to Goku. King Kai orally gave him clues as to how to perform it. He's also never seen anyone acheive the Super Saiyan form before him. However, he was able to perform many techniques after seeing it once such as the kamehameha wave and the afterimage technique. This normally takes years upon years of practice to achieve.

In my opinion, Goku has achieved the peak of martial arts skill. While it is true that he needed to train for long periods of time before. I believe that he's become so skillful, he can also replicate any techniques just by seeing it once.

Furthermore, in a fight between the two heros, I doubt that they will have to learn any "fighting moves" immediately and even if they did, what good would it do them in the fight, as their default attacks are already insanely powerful as it is. The ability to learn fast will not be helpful in fight between Goku and Superman.


Superman is capable of travelling not only forwards, but also BACKWARDS IN TIME

I think it is safe to assume that he cannot control this at will and if he can, he cannot constantly use it, because he doesn't travel back in time very often and I can think of several situations in which he would've used this time traveling ability against his enemies when he struggled for an example with Darkseid. Also, note that being able to travel back in time does not mean infinite speed. Theoretically, being faster than the speed of light is enough to travel through time.


neither is he capable of performing magic to bind Superman

As mentioned earlier, I believe Goku can master any fighting technique or ki technique after seeing it once. Gotenks, the fusion between his son and Vegeta's son once performed a ki technique called "galactic donut" that binds opponents. It shouldn't be hard for Goku to use this, as he has replicated several techniques he's observed, just like Superman.




black holes emit intense amounts of radiation.....Goku, however, might experience slight discomfort due to being robbed of his sight.

First of all, Con has not proved anything. Superman CANNOT SEE THIS RADIATION because THERE IS NO LIGHT. I concede to the fact that he can see the entire electromagnetic spectrum, but NOWHERE does it say he can see RADIATION. As a matter of fact, in order to SEE radiation, LIGHT IS NEEDED. Eyes can see by absorbing light, not radiation. His x-ray vision cannot work without light.

On top of that, RADIATION IS SLOWER THAN LIGHT. THEREFORE RADIATION WILL ALSO BE DISTORTED AND SUCKED UP BY THE BLACK HOLE. Therefore, superman IS INDEED blind when in a black hole.

Furthermore, superman does not have eyes in the back of his head, therefore his vision is limited to what's in front of him. In this sense, Goku's ki sensing is superior than Superman's vision because he can sense behind him as well.

Therefore, Superman IS DEFINITELY AFFECTED BY THIS.

Goku has trained while being blind before. It was during his training to master ki manipulation with Mr. Popo that he had himself blindfolded. I don't think anything can affect him psychologically, as he is used to psychological torture such as the hyperbolic time chamber that has a stronger gravity than earth, insane temperature changes, and complete blankness.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Conclusion

-I have shown that Pro's point about Superman being able to reciprocate techniques will not help him much, just like Goku' ability to reciprocate techniques won't help help him much, with the exception of maybe the Galactic Donut.
-I have shown how Goku's martial arts skills are superior to Superman's and that concentration, meditation, and ki manipulationa are indeed a part of some forms of martial arts, in this case Goku's as well. If Con is not convinced, maybe we can debate about it at a different time?
-I have shown that Goku's capabilities can compete with those of Superman.
-I have shown that Superman CAN in fact have a blindspot if driven into a Black Hole, therefore giving Goku a HUGE advantage.

However...
-None of my points are supportive of how Goku WILL defeat or match Superman equally in a fight, but only proves that IT IS POSSIBLE for Goku to defeat/equally match Superman, however very unlikely.
-Con has shown that Superman is capable of time travel. I doubt he can do this constantly, but it is very plausible that he can use this ONCE in his fight with Goku, which gives him a HUGE advantage.

Therefore...
-I admit defeat. This was a very fun debate and I enjoyed it. The truth is, I always knew Superman was the stronger one, I just wanted to debate about it in in a sophisticated manner in order to restore dignity to Goku fanboys like myself and prove that we are not all pathetic and ignorant.
-As I have admitted defeat, I commend my contendor on his victory and urge viewers to vote Pro, for it will be very awkward if I recieve more votes when I have admitted defeat.

*I'll leave it to Con to wrap things up.
Jay-D

Con

Well, this is a complete surprise. My opponent has made his closing arguments, and then conceded the debate to me.
Nevertheless, I'll now provide my final rebuttals and conclude the debate.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


Rebuttals

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

I would like to ask Con whether he believs that if Superman lost all his powers but kept the skills and qualities he gained from his martial arts training, would he be able to defeat Goku?

Well, that is a difficult question. For the record, I maintain that while Superman may not be able to win, there isn't sufficient data to prove Goku's victory.

In any case, there is nothing Goku can do to rob Superman of his powers, so the question is moot.

...Note that Superman would lose his super strength and speed, whereas Goku still have sper strength and speed, because it came from his martial arts training.

Goku's super strength and speed DID NOT come from his martial arts training. From the start of the debate, Pro has been attributing many of Goku's qualities to be the result of his martial arts training, which is NOT TRUE.

Goku's super strength and speed are a result of his saiyan blood, which makes him stronger every time he recovers from fatigue/injuries.
Note that Goku was born with a power level of 2.
http://dbzwarriors.com...

This only means that GOKU WAS NO DIFFERENT FROM A NORMAL HUMAN AT BIRTH. His tremendous growth was a result of his saiyan heritage, and not Kami's or Roshi's training.


If goku loses his powers i.e. his saiyan blood, then he'll be like a normal human with martial arts skills, MUCH LIKE SUPERMAN, to whom losing his powers means losing the specialties of his kryptonian blood.

This is also why I stated earlier that there is insufficient data to determine the victor.

------------------------------------------

Therefore, by practicing martial arts, your concentration will increase...

The "concentration" that Pro is referring to here is the reflexive prowess and motor skills required to be proficient in combat.

I would like to point out that flight and ki manipulation FUNDAMENTALLY DIFFERENT from the principles that Pro is referring to. As I stated earlier, these skills are SUPPLEMENTARY, and NOT A PART of conventional martial arts training.

I remember everytime we begin training, we would have 15 minutes of meditation.

I'm sorry if I hurt my opponent's sentiments by stating that one of his older sources was unreliable.
I respect Pro's master and his skills, but as I've stated before, the objective of meditation in this particular context is to achieve proficiency in combat.

I'll provide an example to make things clearer:

When you learned to ride a motorcycle, did the trainer teach you how to perform a wheelie?
Of course not.

Performing stunts is fundamentally different, but still a supplement to the art of driving.
Likewise, in the Dragon Ball universe, flight and ki control are a supplement to martial arts, while remaining fundamentally different.

I believe I've made my point clear.

------------------------------------------

However, he was able to perform many techniques after seeing it once such as the kamehameha wave and the afterimage technique.

Pro seems to have ignored a point I made earlier. I'll re-state myself:


-The kamehameha wave is a basic attack. All one needs to do is continuously keep thrusting one's ki so that it surges forward as a wave.
Goku did it because he was naturally "good" with energy techniques. It is an inborn talent.
While impressive, it's not even remotely comparable to Superman's eidetic memory.

-The afterimage technique is ALSO a very elementary technique. It is based on the human eye's limitations in persistence of vision. All one has to do is move very fast in an multi-oscillatory motion.

Such techniques are easy to perform for someone with adequate speed and power. Okay, I'll admit that Goku did better than most, but Superman's learning abilities, like his sight, are ABSOLUTE.
It's like comparing a huge number, say, a centillion, with infinity itself.

------------------------------------------

...I can think of several situations in which he would've used this time traveling ability against his enemies when he struggled for an example with Darkseid.

Well, Darkseid is just as potent (if not more) as Superman. He can easily follow Superman back in time. He's LITERALLY a god, after all.


Also, note that being able to travel back in time does not mean infinite speed.

Consider this:


-Superman is at point A. He is asked to fly to point B, which is, say, a lightyear away. He starts exactly at midnight.
-He flies for a while, eventually enters hyperspace, and flies back in time.
-He comfortably reaches point B exactly at midnight.
-Now, since it's still midnight, the TIME TAKEN FOR SUPERMAN TO TRAVEL ONE LIGHTYEAR FROM A TO B IS ZERO.
-Since (speed) = (distance)/(time),
Superman's speed = (1 lightyear)/0 = ∞ (infinity)

So, I have just proved, mathematically, that Superman can achieve infinite speed, which, as I've already proved earlier, GOKU CANNOT.

------------------------------------------

Gotenks, the fusion between his son and Vegeta's son once performed a ki technique called "galactic donut" that binds opponents.

What my opponent has NOT stated, is the fact that Majin Buu managed to break free of it. This proves that the galactic donut can be broken by strength, and hence, just like the Nyoi-Bo, poses no threat to Superman.

------------------------------------------

Pro's arguments about black holes and radiation are full of scientific inaccuracies. I shall point them out.


he can see the entire electromagnetic spectrum, but NOWHERE does it say he can see RADIATION.

All forms of radiation are nothing but ELECTROMAGNETIC WAVES.

http://www.qrg.northwestern.edu...;

As a matter of fact, in order to SEE radiation, LIGHT IS NEEDED.

Absolutely not. Radiation can be detected by various devices. In Superman's case, since he can see electromagnetic waves, he can see radiation by that very fact.


On top of that, RADIATION IS SLOWER THAN LIGHT.

Not at all. Light itself is a type electromagnetic wave. Radiation is exactly as fast as light. This is actually a well-known fact.

http://cmb.physics.wisc.edu...

Furthermore, superman does not have eyes in the back of his head, therefore his vision is limited to what's in front of him.


Superman has a 180 degree field of vision. If he doesn't see Goku (or anyone else) in front of him, he'll simply turn back and see successfully. Doesn't really take a genius to figure that out.

I believe I have now successfully defended my statement about Superman's sight being absolute.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


Conclusion

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


-Superman's ability to learn techniques instantly is far superior to Goku's, and though Pro is right in saying it wouldn't help anyone during the fight, my point is that it'll help him BEFORE the fight. This ability is a pivotal factor in deciding that SUPERMAN'S MARTIAL ARTS IS IN NO WAY INFERIOR TO GOKU'S.

-
Pro himself has admitted that Superman's strength is greater than Goku's. Add to this the fact that Goku does not have a sizeable advantage in martial arts either, and we can infer that even before discussing other factors, Goku is already at a disadvantage.

-
Pro's statements about Superman being blinded in the vicinity of a black hole are EXTERMELY INACCURATE. I have managed to adequately prove that SUPERMAN'S SIGHT CANNOT BE COMPROMISED IN ANY WAY without compromising the opponent' sight as well.
As such, Superman's senses are, overall, far superior to Goku's.


-Goku's speed is not infinite, as there are constraints of arm movement and brain signals when using instant transmission.

-On the other hand, I have proved that by virtue of time travel, Superman can achieve infinite speed.

-Goku's remarkable endurance and tenacity is no match for Superman's immunity to fatigue. His power pole cannot harm Superman either.

-All in all, Goku cannot match Superman in a fight, let alone defeat him.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Now that I've refuted all of my opponent's arguments, I can accept his concession of the debate without any guilt.

I thank Pro for a deeply enjoyable debate. I had a great time.

The rest is up to the voters. All I have left to say is this: Superman's faster, stronger, tougher and smarter. Pro conceded. Goku loses, Superman wins, please vote CON!
Debate Round No. 5
35 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Defro 2 years ago
Defro
@ShadowKingStudios

Hey there. Been awhile. Actually, at the start of the debate, I was 100% sure I'd win. I was certain that Goku could beat Superman and if he couldn't, they would at least tie. But that was because I was ignorant of many things about Superman. I didn't know he was fast enough to travel through time. And I didn't know that he knew martial arts.

I started out 100% sure, but after learning these things, I wasn't so sure anymore.
Posted by ShadowKingStudios 2 years ago
ShadowKingStudios
Defro & Jay-D

Both of you two's analogies deal primarily with physical tests of the anatomy (with the mind being the driving force)not intellectual-knowledge-based beliefs (where the mind is the sole driving force). The two are not equivalent or remotely comparable to highlight in this instance. What it boils down to is that Defro knew he was wrong, yet He "thought", he "assumed" he had a superior argument than Jay-D's. But he did not "believe" or "100% know" his argument was superior. So he attempted to "convince" others his argument was more valid instead "proving" it true. He knew before the debate Superman is the victor and later confessed he was wrong.

It's same analogical equivalence with a criminal defendant.
He "thinks", he "assumes" he has enough circumstantial evidence to win a NG verdict. So he attempts to "convince" the jury that his case is valid innocence although he never "proves" it through exculpatory evidence. He knew before the trial the Prosecution had concrete evidence instead he later confesses his guilt.

My point, gentlemen, is know 100% that you have the superior argument before entering an intellectual debate. It is not the same as a physical competition where a number of unforeseen circumstances can change the tide of the fight.
Posted by Jay-D 2 years ago
Jay-D
@ShadowKingStudios

What Defro did was noble. Your equivalency is quite wrong. It's more like a fighter's dilemma: "I'm a novice swordsman and he's an expert gladiator. He's obviously stronger and will win, but I just have to fight him, to gauge my own strength and gain valuable experience".

And in the end, it becomes: "I gave my best, but I'm wounded and have no chance of winning, so I'll accept my defeat and bow out, having enjoyed myself thoroughly".

Defro is still, to date, my best opponent, and obviously, I'm happy to have won. Some part of me does wonder what would've happened had he not forfeited, but I don't think his decision was, in any way, wrong.
Posted by Defro 2 years ago
Defro
@ShadowKingStudios

It's good to admit that you are wrong when you realize that you are wrong. If I have an argument with someone and have proven that I am right and he is wrong, and he realizes that he is wrong, it would be annoying if he kept arguing instead of just concede.

If I am playing a game or sport against someone, it would be good to have sportsmanship and admit defeat if you get your butt kicked.
Posted by ShadowKingStudios 2 years ago
ShadowKingStudios
What is the point of conceding in a debate you chose to first go the distance in? This is equivalent to a criminal defendant barking, "I'm innocent! I'ma take it to jury trial." Then while in court, he yells out to the jury, "I'm guilty! I'm guilty!"

Never surrender unless surrendering can save your life.
Posted by Defro 3 years ago
Defro
Phew...I have finally finished posting my argument for the 4th round. I would like to praise my contender for his strong arguments in round 3 that left me stumped and faltered for hours. I honestly almost gave up hope and considered forfeiting. But I promised that I will deliver. And my contender eagerly awaited my submission. Therefore I have chosen to persist and see where this takes me. I have never expected my first debate to be so intense.
Posted by Gohan12345 3 years ago
Gohan12345
Goku can beat superman in 3 minutes
Posted by Jay-D 3 years ago
Jay-D
@Defro:
Sure thing. It's cool as long as you don't forfeit. Please don't forfeit.
Posted by spiderman12345 3 years ago
spiderman12345
I wont comment anymore
Posted by spiderman12345 3 years ago
spiderman12345
@defro we are all childish and we have all made up a statement before and we are all fanboys once me I use to be a Goku fanboy till I knew their were more characters in TV shows. It does open the minds of others but it makes both fanboys annoying. Superman fanboys OP superman and bully others. Goku fanboys love to cry when a character dies so it makes a big fight. Legoguy was childish but we need a new battle because untill a new battle comes no one will keep arguing over goku and superman.
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by Ragnar 3 years ago
Ragnar
DefroJay-DTied
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Reasons for voting decision: Concession...
Vote Placed by Wylted 3 years ago
Wylted
DefroJay-DTied
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Total points awarded:13 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro gets conduct for honorable forfeit. Con wins argument die to pro conceding