The Instigator
wrichcirw
Pro (for)
Winning
9 Points
The Contender
Azul145
Con (against)
Losing
7 Points

Gold is Money

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 4 votes the winner is...
wrichcirw
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 11/30/2012 Category: Economics
Updated: 4 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,881 times Debate No: 27657
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (12)
Votes (4)

 

wrichcirw

Pro

Hello, this is my first attempt at starting a debate on this website, so apologies in advance if I do not conform to whatever format or rules that exist on this website.

Argument

Many people consider gold to be a relic, nothing more than a novelty item worn on ring fingers and necklaces. There is some minor industrial usage, but industrial demand pales in comparison to jewelry demand [1].

If this was the entire story, then gold indeed would be aptly classified as a relic, however, investment demand (i.e., bar and coin and ETF demand) for the yellow metal is at a decade high [1] in terms of both tonnage and dollar value. Gold is not a productive asset, it does not produce a yield, and has little to no industrial purpose, therefore its viability as an investment is dubious. However, the dollar also shares these same characteristics - the dollar is not a productive asset, it does not produce a yield unless deposited at a bank, and has absolutely no industrial purpose. The dollar is also generally accepted as a means of exchange and not an investment. Gold thus shares many characteristics synonymous with money, and should thus be defined as such.

In summary:

Gold is not an useless relic because it has significant investment demand. However, gold is not an investment, because it shares many traits with money and not investments. Thus, gold is money.

Appendix
Operating definitions of key terms:

Investment - in"vest"ment [in-vest-muh nt] noun
1. the investing of money or capital in order to gain profitable returns, as interest, income, or appreciation in value.
2. a particular instance or mode of investing.
3. a thing invested in, as a business, a quantity of shares of stock, etc.
4. something that is invested; sum invested.
5. the act or fact of investing or state of being invested, as with a garment.
[2]

Money mon"ey noun, often attributive \ˈmə-nēplural moneys or mon"ies
Definition of MONEY
1 : something generally accepted as a medium of exchange, a measure of value, or a means of payment: as
a : officially coined or stamped metal currency
b : money of account
c : paper money
2 a : wealth reckoned in terms of money
b : an amount of money
c plural : sums of money : funds
3 : a form or denomination of coin or paper money
4 a : the first, second, and third place winners (as in a horse or dog race) "usually used in the phrases in the money or out of the money
b : prize money
5 a : persons or interests possessing or controlling great wealth
b : a position of wealth
[3]

Productive Asset
Assets used to operate the business. May also be called long-term assets.
[4]

References
[1] - http://www.gold.org... - World Gold Council, Gold Demand Trends Q3 2012, Table 12 on page 25.
[2] - http://dictionary.reference.com...
[3] - http://www.merriam-webster.com...
[4] - http://highered.mcgraw-hill.com...

Thank you for your time, I look forward to an interesting and hopefully vigorous debate on this topic.
Azul145

Con

There will not be much refutation in my argument because you didn't give any real arguments other than gold is money. Most of your speech was copy and paste stuff. I will continue anyways

Gold is not necessarily a good investment. Yes it is on an all time high, but that means buying it will cost more money. You will have to wait years before you actually make a profit off of your gold. Companies are aware it is worth lots of money so they have raised the prices on it making it more difficult to buy. Therefore making it less that a good investment. Yes it will be worth more later, but you will be waiting years for it to actually help you financially. I don't know if you are this informed but Fredrick Delanore Rosevelt was aware of the value of gold. When he was president during the depression he had everyone hand over their gold to give the government money to fix the economy. With our 16 trillion dollar debt this could easily happen today.
Gold is not a good investment and I thank you for your time!
Debate Round No. 1
wrichcirw

Pro

I agree with your position that gold is not a good investment, as I stated before:

" its viability as an investment is dubious"

Indeed, a significant portion of my argument is geared towards refuting gold as an investment, and framing future discussions on gold as if it was money, instead of treating it as some sort of investment or security.

The argument is that Gold is Money, not whether or not gold would make a good investment.

P.S. you are welcome to bring in any additional proof for your argument if you like. Thanks for joining.
Azul145

Con

Well technically gold is money but that doesn't make it good for people to buy. You haven't stated any reasons to why we should buy it. I have won this debate unless you argue the topic.
Debate Round No. 2
wrichcirw

Pro

My argument is that gold is not a relic, it is not an investment, that GOLD IS MONEY. Since you agree with this statement, I win by default.

The argument for debate has nothing to do with whether or not people should or should not buy gold. Please refer to the title.
Azul145

Con

This wasn't really a good topic. EVERYBODY KNOWS YOU CAN TRADE GOLD FOR MONEY DUDE.
Debate Round No. 3
12 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by pngwn56 4 years ago
pngwn56
Azul, if you didn't like the debate, no one put a gun to your head and made you accept it.

As a side note, I still don't think that gold is money (at least not everywhere) but Azul argued the point so poorly (even admitting that he was wrong), that I could not vote for him/her.
Posted by larztheloser 4 years ago
larztheloser
... and yes, this topic is highly debatable.
Posted by wrichcirw 4 years ago
wrichcirw
I believe in the US only the state of Utah comes even close to acknowledging that gold MAY be money.
Posted by wrichcirw 4 years ago
wrichcirw
This is actually a very important topic being debated all around the world. Most countries (including the US) do NOT consider gold to be money.
Posted by Azul145 4 years ago
Azul145
I hope you do better in real debates that actually have good debate able topics
Posted by wrichcirw 4 years ago
wrichcirw
No, I'm pretty sure I would have won that argument too, depending on how you phrased it. I don't think gold is an investment.
Posted by wrichcirw 4 years ago
wrichcirw
Lastly, a good argument against gold being money:

"On 15 August 1971, the United States unilaterally terminated convertibility of the US$ to gold."
http://en.wikipedia.org...

This would have put me on the defensive, as I would have had to argue that gold is still money despite the lack of recognition as such by the federal government. I was actually expecting the debate to go in this direction.

additional info:
http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://en.wikipedia.org...
Posted by Azul145 4 years ago
Azul145
Apparently I misread the topic but personally I don't think this was very debate able. If we did the investment debate you would have lost.
Posted by wrichcirw 4 years ago
wrichcirw
You can also trade yen for dollars, euro for dollars, RMB for dollars. All of those things ARE money.

The entire point of this debate was to argue about whether or not gold has more in common with oil, oats, or land, or with yen, dollars, and euros.

I'm sorry you misread the topic, but I kept repeating it over and over again. If you had any questions, you could have posted them here in the comment section before forfeiting the debate.
Posted by wrichcirw 4 years ago
wrichcirw
"EVERYBODY KNOWS YOU CAN TRADE GOLD FOR MONEY DUDE."

You totally missed the point. You can trade stocks for money too, but that doesn't mean that stocks ARE money.

You can trade oil for money, you can trade oats for money, you can trade land for money. But none of those things ARE money.
4 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Vote Placed by BA_BA_BA 4 years ago
BA_BA_BA
wrichcirwAzul145Tied
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Total points awarded:07 
Reasons for voting decision: gold is not money nor ever will be. it may be a replacement, but raw gold is not money.
Vote Placed by wiploc 4 years ago
wiploc
wrichcirwAzul145Tied
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Total points awarded:30 
Reasons for voting decision: I'm still not sure what Pro means by "Gold is Money." But he did flounder around trying to argue for that premise, while Con never did try to refute it.
Vote Placed by The_Master_Riddler 4 years ago
The_Master_Riddler
wrichcirwAzul145Tied
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Reasons for voting decision: Sorry, I would have voted for con if he didn't agree with pro.
Vote Placed by larztheloser 4 years ago
larztheloser
wrichcirwAzul145Tied
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Total points awarded:30 
Reasons for voting decision: Welcome to debating pro! This was a strange debate. Pro's opening argument was somewhat weak but it did exist - gold is a lot like money in many respects, and therefore must be the same as money (like I said- not very strong but it counts for something). Con's response was more or less that it's not a very good form of currency. The biggest issue was that nobody seemed to get the difference between currency, money and commodity, something that con hinted at in the final round but never fully explained why that distinction basically disproved pro's entire case. As con rightly discovered, their case did nothing to undermine pro's case and thus pro achieved their BOP. Some hints: do not spend time arguing things that do not prove the resolution true or false. Spend more time analyzing why your points are true and what they mean for the debate. Have more than one argument. Use structure to clearly indicate where you are at. Message me for more feedback.