The Instigator
JosephShakespeare
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
Logical-Master
Pro (for)
Winning
17 Points

Green Lantern (Kyle Rayner) is better than Goku

Do you like this debate?NoYes+4
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 3 votes the winner is...
Logical-Master
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/2/2013 Category: TV
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,886 times Debate No: 41569
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (4)
Votes (3)

 

JosephShakespeare

Con

I'll state my perfectly compelling and conclusive argument right after someone challenges my superior intellect on how Goku is not tier with GL.
Logical-Master

Pro

Sure, I challenge the instigator's superior intellect on how Goku is "not tier with GL." Granted, I would like the record to reflect that "better" is a term with multiple meanings.
Debate Round No. 1
JosephShakespeare

Con

As in better, I mean superior in every aspect. Kyle Rayner is omnipotent. He could easily make a sun and throw Goku into it. Even if Goku tries to generate power from others, it still wouldn't suffice. There's nothing Goku would be able to do to him.

"No hard upper limit to the power ring's capabilities has yet been demonstrated; it is often referred to as "the most powerful weapon in the universe. Whatever the GL imagines, it will be created."

However, it is quite obvious that the power ring is superior to the potara earrings in every aspect. GLs are omnipotent.
Logical-Master

Pro

Greetings to my opponent and Debate Dot Org.

As the contender, I contest each of the instigator's claims and request that he provide proof to support his assertions that Kyle Rayner is omnipotent or that he could throw Goku into "a sun."


1. Goku is faster than Kyle Rayner.

At the start of the series, Dragon Ball Z, the antagonist, Raditz was stated as being "faster than light." (1). Raditz was recorded as having a power level of 1500 (2). After becoming a Super Saiyan, Goku was listed having a power level of 150,000,000 (3). Although this was the last recorded power level in the series, Goku had grown significantly stronger over the course of the series' remaining story arcs and received an additional power boost when he became a Super Saiyan god in the film Dragon Ball Z: Battle of the Gods.

Still though, light moves at 186,000 miles per second. Goku's power level as a Super Saiyan was 100,000x greater than Raditz's, who was faster than light. Since Raditz was fater than light, Goku is at least 100,000x faster than light.

On the other hand, not only has Kyle Raner ever shown such speeds, but is only capable of moving faster than light when traveling.(4) On the other hand, as we saw with Raditz, he can move faster than light in the midst of combat. Goku can move at least 100,000x faster.

2. Goku's destructive capacity exceeds Kyle Raner's

In the most recent Dragon Ball Z movie, Goku, in his most powerful form, is 90% as powerful as the god of destruction, Bills.(5) Bills is stated as being powerful enough to destroy an entire galaxy.(6). Therefore, Goku is at very least powerful enough to destroy 90% of a galaxy in one blast. This is well corroborated by other character feats, such as Broly destroying a galaxy in the past and Cell threatening to wipe out the entire solar system in the middle of the Dragon Ball Z series.

3. Because Goku is faster and more powerful than Kyle Raner, he could incinerate him before he had any time to use his power ring.

Kyle Raner's ring is a powerful weapon, but it's also his greatest weakness. The weapon requires thought to function. It takes 300-500 milliseconds to process a thought. (7) In other words, 3/10 or 1/2 of 1 second. Since Goku in one of his weakest states moves at least 100,000x faster than 186,000 miles per second, he could end the fight before Kyle Raner was even able to process that he was in a fight. Mr. Raner's greatest weapon is his greatest liability. Goku could fire a galaxy destroying blast long before Mr Raner was able to use his ring.


Sources


(1) https://www.youtube.com... (Piccolo noting that "He's faster than the speed of light" in reference to Raditz).

(2) http://static1.wikia.nocookie.net... (see bottom left panel).

(3) http://static3.wikia.nocookie.net...
; also see: http://dragonball.wikia.com...

(4) http://greenlantern.wikia.com...

(5) http://dragonball.wikia.com...

(6) http://dragonball.wikia.com...

(7) https://www.science.smith.edu...

Debate Round No. 2
JosephShakespeare

Con

-- As in anything, he can do anything, such as freeze Goku. Bills cannot destroy galaxies; it was a dub error. One of the people who are nearly capable of destroying the universe is Omega Shenron, which is now official, according to Akira. The way Kyle Rayner uses his ring isn't slow. He could easily overkill Goku within seconds. It is just as Sinestro vs. Hal Jordan fight went in GL.

-- As in nigh-omnipotent, I don't think you understand. Whatever Kyle wants to possess, he can easily get it within seconds, especially if we are talking about Kyle who is more trained before he was just now figuring out his capabilities. And in battle, I'm sure Goku just doesn't rush his opponents as if he's angry, except when he's pushed to his limits. Kyle isn't evil at all -- and while Goku would be sitting there, Kyle would be able to spawn a sun, lower his gravity, or he can spawn duplicates with identical power.

-- Bills is a solar system buster at best -- and a solar system is tenuous compared to a galaxy. Therefore, Bills's Supernova cannot destroy a galaxy. Supernovas can only affect things such as atmosphere, suns, etc. Wikis are fanmade websites which misinterpret actual manga rules. Wikis are NOT official websites; they always have false information. People always interchange information on those Wikis, as long as you have an account.
Logical-Master

Pro


1. Goku is faster than Kyle Rayner (R3)

The instigator has in no way shape or fashion addressed my contention that Goku is faster than Kyle Raner. Thus, until he does, you are to presume that he concedes.



2. Goku's destructive capacity exceeds Kyle Raner's (R3)

The instigatorr claims Bills cannot destroy galaxies and the remarks indicating otherwise are simply dub errors. However, even if we were to presume that the instigator was correct, Broly can destroy galaxies.(1) Bills and Goku are far more powerful than Broly. Moreover, as you've seen for yourself, the instigator claims that Omega Shenron can destroy a galaxy. Goku at the very end of the Dragon Ball GT series is more powerful than Omega Shenron. In fact, thanks to having absorbed the dragon balls into his very being, his powers are virtually limitless. Thus, either way, Goku can destroy a galaxy.

Finally, I'd like for you to draw your attention to the feats of the DBZ villain, Gohan Buu. Gohan Buu nearly destroyed the universe simply by powering up.(2) Bills has consistently been regarded as the strongest villain in the history of Dragon Ball Z. (3) Since Goku reached Bills level of power after facing him and since Goku by the end of GT is far more powerful than Bills, it can be said that Goku is easily powerful enough to destroy an entire universe.

So no matter how you slice it, Kyle Raner doesn't stand a chance. Heck, the entire Green Lantern Corp combined can't compete with Goku.

3. Because Goku is faster and more powerful than Kyle Raner, he could incinerate him before he had any time to use his power ring. (R3)

The instigator does not contest that Goku moves faster than Kyle Raner thinks. Instead, he claims that Goku wouldn't rush his opponents. However, not only has Goku rushed opponents before, but whether he has or hasn't is irrelevant. We're talking about why one character is BETTER than the other, not what either character would most likely do if confronted with the other. If that was the focus of this debate, then it's likely that neither character would have any reason to fight each other in the first place. The fact of the matter is that Goku easily has the capacity to eliminate Mr. Raner before his mind has processed the fact that he is in a fight.

Even if you are to reject the evidence I've provided to show that Goku is at least powerful enough to destroy a galaxy, Goku still wins here. Before Mr. Raner uses his ring to do anything, Goku can take him down. He could just as easily slice Mr. Raner in half with the classic destructo disk technique.(4)

Either way, the instigator has presented us nothing to suggest that Mr Raner is powerful enough to shrug off a technique that can destroy a solar system, much less one that can destroy a planet.


RE: Sources

The instigator comments on my use of wiki sources. He claims they are not OFFICIAL sites. Whether they are "official sites" is irrelevant. What matters is whether the information they contain is credible. As you'll notice, the wiki sites I've provided are sourced and the instigator (or anyone) is more than welcome to check the sources provided.

The instigator also makes a comment about "the manga." However, we are not constrained to "the manga" in this debate. The instigator provided me a link (via PM) from a the Green Lantern live action film (with Hal Jordan instead of Kyle Raner) in support of one of his claims. If the instigator is not confined to one set of source material, then neither am I.

(1)
(2)
(3) http://dragonball.wikia.com...
(4) http://dragonball.wikia.com...
Debate Round No. 3
JosephShakespeare

Con

This is obviously a laughable argument. Broly cannot destroy galaxies. In the original Japanese version of movie 8, it's stated in the beginning that the South Galaxy had been ATTACKED by a Super Saiyan. Also, King Kai told Goku that the Super Saiyan was IN the South Galaxy. When Goku teleported there, we could still see lots of planets and stars in the sky, meaning the Galaxy wasn't destroyed. Broly didn't destroy the South Galaxy; he destroyed some of the South Galaxy. There's a huge difference. Instead, my opponent fails to comprehend that his information is fan made crap.

My opponent, however, claims that Bills can destroy a galaxy, and he also implies that Goku can destroy a planet. If he had any scientific knowledge, he would know that Supernovas in real life only affect solar systems. Goku cannot destroy a universe; there is nothing said about that in any DB manga. Goku was not stronger than Omega Shenron at the end of GT. The Dragon Balls made Omega Shenron nigh-omnipotent due to his tremendous powers + the Dragon Balls. However, Kyle has way more feats than Goku, such as teleportation, flying, telekinetic abilities, etc. The ring has far better molecular structure than a Super Saiyan. Goku would only be 1-2 tier in DC.

You've provided no proof of Goku being able to destroy a Galaxy whatsoever. Your claims are only plausible if they've been mentioned in the official manga. Otherwise, none of your claims are true; they are only FUNimation dubs. Your only source is the manga; they have all of the real information there. Wikis are not credible sources. None of the information you've provided is true. You merely got your information from FUNi dubs and fan dubs. Goku hasn't shown any feats that are able to destroy a galaxy, nor did Bills. The Spirit Bomb, however, is totally irrelevant. If you think a Supernova is able to destroy a galaxy, I don't know what to say.
Logical-Master

Pro

1. Goku is faster than Kyle Rayner (R4)

The instigator has still in no way shape or fashion addressed my contention that Goku is faster than Kyle Raner. Thus, until he does, you are to presume that he concedes.


2. Goku's destructive capacity exceeds Kyle Raner's (R3)

The instigator continues to insist that Broly cannot destroy galaxies. However, as you can see for yourself in the video I showed you, he is stated to have destroyed the South Galaxy right after you SEE the South Galaxy getting destroyed. Thus, the instigator is effectivally arguing that grass isn't green. The instigator is correct about Goku traveling to the remains of the South galaxy to note the wrekage and that the norther galaxy is in big trouble. Even so, there was wreckage after the atomic bomb destroyed hiroshima. It doesn't mean the atomic didn't destroy Hiroshima. The fact is that we see the South Galaxy being destroyed on screen, we hear King Kai saying it's destroyed and we see Goku trying to prevent the same thing from happening to the North galaxy. There's nothing to dispute here.

The instigator fails to address the evidence I provided of Majin Buu nearly destroying the entire universe nor that Goku by the end of the series is more powerful than Majin Buu. Rather, he tries to dismiss this and other parts of my argument by insisting that it's "not in the manga." I'll address this shortly.

The instigator talks a lot about supernovas and scientific knowledge. Frankly, I'm not here to discuss either. I'm here to discuss the capabilities of fictional characters. These fictional characters have been stated as being capable of a wide range of feats (including planetary and galactic destruction). Therefore, we are to accept these feats as true as far as this debate is concerned.

The instigator claims Goku is not stronger than Omega Shenron at the end of the GT because Shenron absorbed the dragon balls. This, however, is false. Before Omega Shenron absorbed the dragon balls, Goku was stronger than him. Omega Shenron amped his power by absorbing the dragon balls. Later, Goku himself absorbs the dragon balls just as Omega had done beforehand. Moreover, Goku appears to acquired immortality and has trained for decades after his battle with Shenron. All evidence points to Goku being stronger.


3. Because Goku is faster and more powerful than Kyle Raner, he could incinerate him before he had any time to use his power ring. (R3)


The instigator largely abandons this line of discussion. Should he be unable to prove that Kyle Raner can think thousands of times faster than light during the next round, you are to accept the merits ofhis contention as true.

The instigator does tell us that "Kyle has way more feats than Goku, such as teleportation, flying, telekinetic abilities, etc. The ring has far better molecular structure than a Super Saiyan. Goku would only be 1-2 tier in DC." However, although I could address this (largely in the fact that none of these abilities overcome Goku's speed and destructive capacity), I'd like to see some evidence presented on behalf of these statement since the burden of proof belongs to the instigator.

RE: Sources

The instigator talks a bit about the Dragon Ball Z manga being the only acceptable source to use, but I've already adressed the illogic of this notion in the previous round (see sources in R3). The instigator is welcome to address this in his next round. Either way, the instigator has provided us with no justification to reject any non-manga material as a source. And even if he were somehow able to, the still doesn't overcome the very basis of my case, which is that Goku can move faster than GL can think and can incenerate him before his mind processes the very fact that he is in a battle. Goku has been moving faster than lightning since he was a child (1), thus it's be readily easily to calculate Goku's minimum speed using the manga alone and the stated power levels.

The instigator talks a lot about wikis not being credible sources. I've addressed this in the previous round as well. The instigator is welcome to address my arguments on the matter in his next round. He also makes a reference to "fan dubs", but I don't recall citing any.

I will note that the instigator has also sent me a private message attempting persuade me of his position. However, out of good sportsmanship, I will warn him that although I entertained his private messages, none of that comes into the debate unless he brings it in.

And that'll do it for now.


Sources:

(1) http://static.comicvine.com...

Debate Round No. 4
JosephShakespeare

Con

JosephShakespeare forfeited this round.
Logical-Master

Pro

Before closing his account and fleeing this site like a jack rabbit, the instigator sent me a rather inappropriate and "butthurt" private message in regards to this debate, hence the forfeit in his last round. Since the instigator has decided to leave us, I will wrap up this debate in a clear and concise fashion.

The instigator failed to prove that Green Lanter was better than Goku, presented virtually no evidence of his position or his attacks against mine and failed to demonstrate how Kyle Rayner would overcome an adversary that could incinerate him before his mind even processed that there was a battle taking place. The instigator failed to prove that Kyle Raner could endure an attack that was even capable of destroying a planet, much less a solar system or galaxy.

For these reasons, great justice demands that you vote PRO.

Best regards,

Logical Master
Debate Round No. 5
4 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Posted by Yraelz 3 years ago
Yraelz
See! This is the sh!t I'm talking about. I literally only noticed the existence of this debate (which I would normally read and vote on) because I was competing in TUFs vote. By chance I had scrolled five pages back into the vote section.

I shouldn't have to do this to find your debates! I should also be able to link airmax straight onto this. @airmax
Posted by Logical-Master 3 years ago
Logical-Master
Haha, I watched the "motion comic" of red son several months ago and remember that line!

Good read and very true!
Posted by zrg4848 3 years ago
zrg4848
If anyone has ever read Superman: Red Son you will see Superman break Hal Jordans hand and take his ring claiming that a thought based weapon is useless against a being able to move faster than the speed of thought. And just for the purpose of recognition Hal was leading many Green Lanterns. Meaning Goku moving at above the seed of thought could easily defeat Kyle and a dozen more GL's before they "get a shot off".
Posted by Eitan_Zohar 3 years ago
Eitan_Zohar
I miss "greetings."
3 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Vote Placed by Yraelz 3 years ago
Yraelz
JosephShakespeareLogical-MasterTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:-Vote Checkmark-2 points
Total points awarded:07 
Reasons for voting decision: Sentry's atoms move one second ahead of the normal timeline (what does that even mean) thus he would crush Goku before Goku could even move FTL. But seriously, LM wins the faster than thought arguments and thus Green Lantern is annihilated. Con probably should have argued that Goku also has to use thought before he can take action. =)
Vote Placed by zrg4848 3 years ago
zrg4848
JosephShakespeareLogical-MasterTied
Agreed with before the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Agreed with after the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:-Vote Checkmark-2 points
Total points awarded:07 
Reasons for voting decision: We just saw con taken to school. Pro had a textbook great debate.
Vote Placed by imabench 3 years ago
imabench
JosephShakespeareLogical-MasterTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: FF