The Instigator
Jonnykelly
Pro (for)
Winning
3 Points
The Contender
aburk903
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points

Gun rights

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
Jonnykelly
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 3/4/2015 Category: Politics
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 516 times Debate No: 71008
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (5)
Votes (1)

 

Jonnykelly

Pro

I commissioned this challenge after reading my opponent's stance on gun rights. His opinion is simply based on facts that are just not true. I ask any following this debate to just check it out on their own.

Gun crime is higher with more gun control.

In major cities of America that have more gun control, there is more crime. [1] Chicago has some extreme gun control, against both open carry and concealed carry, and yet it ranks at the top in gun crime. Countries that have more gun control demonstrate worse stats. Countries like Honduras, which has approximately 5 guns per 100 people has a homicide rate off the charts compared to that of gun-loving countries. [2]

Gun crime is lower without gun control.

In Switzerland, every household is REQUIRED to posses one Sig 550 assault rifle, and are encouraged to have one Sig P226 sidearm.[3] They have some of the lowest gun crime and mass murder in the world. Israel, the US, and several others demonstrate similar trends.

I now place the shared burden of proof on my opponent to prove to me that gun rights are harmful to society.

(P.S. My opponent can rely on his anti-gun posters to protect him. But when my family is in danger, my Mossberg Maverick will do the job.)
aburk903

Con

Thanks for the topic, Pro.

My main contention here is with my opponent's assertion of gun "rights".

To establish "gun rights" (which it is his duty to defend (it is the entire proposition!), we ask what constitutes a right?

Surely my opponent does not claim that anything an individual wants warrants a right- equally, not what protects only the individual exclusively. This line of thought would allow for the individual to possess nuclear warheads (they do make good self defense tools). So why should we have gun rights?

My opponent seems to conclude it is that which preserves the most human life that necessitates this right. This is supported by his entire evidence coming from statistical data about murder rates in geographic areas with various firearm policies. However, this utilitarian claim cannot be said to warrant a right.

To acknowledge the sacrifice of some by the implementation of policy is to propagate this Abrahamic concept of sacrificial morality (not only unethical/undesirable but unnecessary!). But beyond this, my opponent's duty is rigorous: he must establish why firearm ownership is a right, but prior to this- why society is ideal? why the preservation of human life is ideal? These two issues seem the most problematic and so I will rest here as our positions may become more clearly defined in the subsequent round. Looking forward to rebuttals, Pro!
Debate Round No. 1
Jonnykelly

Pro

My assertions regarding this topic are as follows:

- US citizens have the right to bear arms
- This right should be defended and even extended
- The right to bear arms is a beneficial policy

Both pro and con have equal burden of proof, each having to prove the others standpoint wrong.

First, the citizens have the right to posses and utilize firearms in protection of themselves and other citizens. This is not so much an argument as it is a preliminary statement. Our constitution grants us this as a right to defend ourselves. Until such a time as this amendment is revised or revoked, the right to a firearm for personal use is granted. Thus I do not understand my opponent's contention about 'What is a right?'.

Second, this right should be defended and even extended within governmental and legislative policies. Current policies of government restrict the above rights beyond what is constitutional and beyond what is logical. Many will argue, "At the time that they wrote that amendment, they didn't have automatic weapons." At the time of the formation of our nation, most gun owning Americans had either the Brown Bess, or the Kentucky Long Rifle. The Brown Bess was the AK-47 of the day, and the Long Rifle the M16 of the day. The founding fathers knew what they were saying when they gave freedom to bear arms to their citizens. As threats to ourselves and our nation increase, the tools we have to defend ourselves also should increase.

Lastly, the right to bear arms has proven to be a beneficial policy. I point to my evidence provided in the first round, cited by sources provided in the first round. (Located in the comments. My bad.)

I am not sure what my opponent was trying to point out with his reference to a nuclear warhead, and I think it would be beneficial for him to elaborate on that point.

I now invite my opponent to attempt to prove any of my points wrong.
aburk903

Con

My opponent seems to have misunderstood my concern. To have legitimate clash at this point will be difficult, which makes the unfortunately brief nature of this debate regrettable.

-My opponent asserts that US citizens have the right to bear arms. Right does not imply legal allowance, right implies fundamental condition for just existence. For instance, a human has the right to freedom, regardless of whether or not the government under which he falls enslaves him. So, we face a conflict: does my opponent claim that only US citizens have the right to bear arms? This seems jingoistic and discriminatory. I believe my opponent wishes to assert that gun ownership is a fundamental right of the species (or that Americans are somehow apart from the rest of the globe).

-This point is virtually null and void when we shift our gaze to a proper understanding of what a "right" actually is. I further contend that to say "The Brown Bess was the AK-47 of the day, and the Long Rifle the M16 of the day" is a baseless and improvable assertion. Should we evaluate current policy regarding electricity expenditure in lighting by comparing it to the candle? Also, the assertion that "threats to ourselves...increase". What threats? What do these threats justify? How far does this argument extend? My opponent's ambiguity fails to address any real matter upon which we may partake in concrete debate.

-I address my contention with social preservation in my initial questions, which remain overlooked. (The nuclear warhead was an extreme example [intentional slippery slope] that demands clarification for the extend and necessary cut off point of proposed defense legality).

Remaining questions:
Why is firearm ownership a right?
Why is social preservation ideal?
Is social preservation objectively upheld by firearms, and to what extent?
How can firearm restrictions be lifted when a direct consequence of this action will necessarily mean the loss of some innocent life?

Thank you.
Debate Round No. 2
Jonnykelly

Pro

My opponent has made a great deal of assertions, and generally has delayed this debate by an intense use of rhetoric, an in depth description with his problems regarding the word, "right", and by dodging the question.

When this debate was accepted by my opponent, it was fairly clear that my goal was to properly advocate for the support of gun rights, and my opponent's job was to prove why he is against gun rights. This isn't a question of whether or not 'rights' is the proper term, this is simply a debate about whether or not gun rights (as they are even called on this site) are beneficial to humanity.

My opponent has failed to prove that gun rights are counterproductive in the amount of space and time given.

I extend my previous points in support of gun rights.
aburk903

Con

I disagree with my opponent's claim that I have "made a great deal of assertions". I have merely asked for extensive clarification of the frame of this debate and for support towards its foundational presuppositions. This is not empty rhetoric or clever sophistry, but a quest for legitimate truth. When my opponent asserts that a right only exists to citizens of one nation and not another, it is he- not I- who has made an assertion. When my opponent attempts to compare 18th Century weaponry with assault rifles today, it is he- not I- who has grounded his arguments in empty rhetoric. I additionally point out that it is my opponent- not I- who appears to have dodged any question. My opponent has failed to prove anything, and has refused to offer response to my calls for clarification simply because he does not feel to do so is reasonable. However, it is not my duty to have an agreeable foundation to his prior to acceptance of debate. The premise here is labeled- no more or less- "Gun rights". My opponent has offered no support for gun rights in the slightest, unless one who judges this argument comes with a plethora of presupposition, not tabula rasa- as a just judge must. It is for these reasons that you must vote Con and that you cannot objectively vote Pro. Thank you.
Debate Round No. 3
5 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
Posted by Ugene 1 year ago
Ugene
Alright guys. I'm going to have to side with pro. Gun rights means that everyone doesn't have to rely on the police to show up 10 minutes after the murder happened. I believe that gun rights are fine just the way they are, but that the screening process needs to be more explicit. Personally, our family has two pistols, an assault rifle, and a shotgun placed around the house in case someone breaks in. A person that is against gun control is placing their fate in the hands of the government.
Posted by Jonnykelly 1 year ago
Jonnykelly
Debate revised to open style. Opponent should provide reasons for opinion and attempt to disprove my points.
Posted by Jonnykelly 1 year ago
Jonnykelly
Debates aren't about changing your opponent's mind, It is about changing the minds of your followers. Accept the debate.
Posted by SkepticalDefender 1 year ago
SkepticalDefender
Sorry, but I'll have to decline your arguement/debate. We're already debating chrsitianity, it's also obvious you're conservative, and it's impossible to fight with them, literally, you can't change their minds.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by FaustianJustice 1 year ago
FaustianJustice
Jonnykellyaburk903Tied
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Total points awarded:30 
Reasons for voting decision: By establishing the 2nd amendment as the base work, and US cities (unrefuted, btw), as well as getting no argument that self defense is a right, Pro successfully established that gun rights can mitigate crime at the very least, and pushed into the bounds of defense of the country. Con asked a lot of questions that I don't feel had any real bit to them. They sidestepped the evidence on the table in favor of trying to establish a morality or reason, but offered no demonstration as to why their view was superior.