The Instigator
Coveny
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
SpicyChicken
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

Guns are not the problem

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 4/28/2017 Category: Politics
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 531 times Debate No: 102279
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (6)
Votes (0)

 

Coveny

Pro

The media and fear have turned guns into a polarizing issue, when in reality homicides only account for roughly 8 thousand of the 2.6 million or so people who died in 2014. If you look at the overall picture, guns are not the reason Americans are dying.
SpicyChicken

Con

I do respect your opinion, but, I find it hard to believe that guns are not the problem since 117,000 Americans are shot every year. Also, the probability of committing homicide with a gun in the house increases by 90% and the chances of being killed by homicide with a gun in the house goes up by 40% to 170%. Most states also don't even require background checks to allow someone to get a gun. When there are many shootings in the news and in our cities and guns in the house are clearly linked to more shootings and homicides, I find it hard to believe that guns are not the issue. You might argue that guns can also be used for hunting and other recreational purposes, but when someone is in danger because of a gun, should we really allow anyone to get a gun? This law was also passed when Americans had to protect themselves from war (the Revolutionary War against the United Kingdom) and was meant only for war and if a soldier was putting you in danger. Now, people don't even need guns because there are no enemies close to us that we have to worry about invading us and having soldiers right at our front step. Guns are not needed, clearly linked to more homicides and shootings, and are the problem. When the chances are increased of being killed by homicide by 40% to 170%, saying that guns are not the problem is wrong. There aren't even background checks needed in most states? Can we really just give a gun to terrorists and wrongdoers?

URL of Sources:

http://smartgunlaws.org...
http://www.governing.com...
https://www.nraila.org...
Debate Round No. 1
Coveny

Pro


Did you miss the part where 2.6 million people die every year, and the best you have is 117 thousand from an article in 2008 (almost 10 years ago), that’s a fifth, oh wait you included anyone shot, not just the people who died? Let’s look at people who actually die this year to guns. CDC has it at 33,599.



https://www.cdc.gov...



So 33,599 divided by 2.6 million is 1.29 percent of the people who died. But then that number isn’t really fair either because it covers self-defense, and suicide. If we look at just homicides the CDC says 10,945.



https://www.cdc.gov...



So 10,945 divided by 2.6 million is 0.42 percent of the people who died. It’s no longer even a full percentage point.



Now let’s get into the fun facts about gun sales and violent crime rates. From 2004 to 2014 (the most recent the FBI has posted) they dropped, while gun sales increased.



https://ucr.fbi.gov...


https://www.fbi.gov...



I’ll put it in a handy chart for you with the numbers at the bottom.



http://i.imgur.com...



Wanna know what happen to robbery and rape as more guns hit the streets? You guessed… it dropped. Here is another handy chart on that.



http://i.imgur.com...



Personally, I’m going to take the word of the CDC and the FBI’s most current number over your article that quotes sources from 1995. (that’s over 20 years ago) Also it should be noted this is the center for disease control and the FBI, the likelihood of bias is low.



Now lets say we go the route you want to go, and we ban guns like England. Do you want to know what England is doing now? They are running a campaign to get rid of knives. I’m not even making this up. “Save a life, surrender your knife” is the slogan.



http://countercurrentnews.com...



It's all because England and Wales had 574 homicides in 2015.


http://www.bbc.com...



There are roughly 3 million people who live in England and Wales.


https://www.google.com...



So, let’s do some math. The US has 320 million people, but just to make the math easy I’m going to say we only have 300 million. (makes for better numbers for you, and you really need the help) That means nice round 100 times as many people in the US than in England and Wales. So 574 X 100 = 57,400 homicides if we compare apples to apples. The link above from the CDC for homicides listed the US as 15,809. That means in comparison the country which has banned guns (England and Wales) has roughly four times as many homicides as the country that just keeps increasing gun sales. (the US)



So I will say again… guns are NOT the problem.


SpicyChicken

Con

You answer this one question, do guns have an impact on the amount of deaths a year? The answer is yes. On average, 93 Americans die of guns everyday. There are also on average 12,000 gun homicides in the United States and for every one person killed with a gun in the world, there are two that are also injured because of guns. Guns also lead to more suicides as 62% of the suicides in the United States use guns. Our children are also affected as seven children and teens are shot everyday here in the United States with guns. In one year, 17,383 American children and teens will die by shooting, homicide, suicide and other ways with guns. Also, 50 women are shot by their partners and all of this accounts 25 times more homicides in our country compared to other developed nations. For every one person killed by a gun in Canada, the second highest homicide rate in developed countries, 7.22 people die here in the United States. Look at the data. More people die from guns than stomach cancer and serious liver cancer combined. You may also say that Americans need guns for protection, but only about 3.4% of shootings have claims that guns were used in self defense. With the United States having one of the highest gun ownership rates (as 238 million guns are owned by Americans) and they lead to higher suicides, homicides, more women being killed, more children being killed, one of the worst rates of shootings and people using guns in the wrong way, I hope that these statistics will change your mind. By the way, look at the broader picture, not just three statistics that say that guns are not the problem. Look again. Why would we have one of the highest gun murder rates and the highest gun owner ship rates? It clearly correlates. There is no other evidence that you can bring to the table that shows that America's gun ownership rates and homicide rates clearly are caused by each other. If America wants to be a world power, let's show them some class. NOT with guns. You may prove me wrong, but math does not lie.

URL of Sources:
https://everytownresearch.org...
http://globalnews.ca...
http://heedinggodscall.org...
http://www.bradycampaign.org...
http://www.gunviolencearchive.org...
http://www.cbsnews.com...
Debate Round No. 2
Coveny

Pro


The answer to your question is yes they do have an impact on deaths per year. A positive one. There are less deaths, and violent crime because we have guns. (as shown by the CDC, FBI, and England) Now let me respond with a question back to you. Do vehicles have an impact on the amount of deaths a year? Because they kill 33,736 people a year, or 93 people every day.



https://www.cdc.gov...



Now to Injuries, it’s not double, it’s in the millions. So cars are of a problem than guns? No you don’t think that do you, but they are the LEADING cause of injury in the US.



https://www.cdc.gov...




I always find it weird when people use suicides to try and prove that guns are bad. Like somehow if guns didn’t exist everyone would be too stupid to know how to kill themselves. Or do a google search on how to kill yourself without using a gun. If a person wants to die, they will kill themselves unless they get help, removing access to guns does nothing but change the method, the only real cure to suicide has nothing to do with guns, so guns are a moot point.



As far as children are concerned, I’ve seen irresponsible parents my whole life. Some of them have guns, so of them don’t.



http://whatstheharm.net...



Now you quote “25 times more homicides in our country compared to other developed nations”. The only way you get that number is to cherry pick the data, and using the best data on the subject you can find. Look at a few different sources that cover other countries and you’ll see we are really. (spoiler alert it's not any where near 25 times any of the other countries, and it's better than other "developed countries" like Brazil, Russia, and various countries in Africa)



http://data.worldbank.org...


https://www.unodc.org...



Guns aren’t even in the top ten killers in the us. Heart disease currently holds the title but it flip flops with cancer. Do you even know what nephritis is? Because it kills four times as many people as homicides.



https://www.cdc.gov...



I hope the statistics will change your mind. As more guns enter the country the homicide rates, rape rates, and robbery rates all decline. As clearly indicated from the CDC and FBI. I could argue that gun ownership rates are not correct for the US or other nations. There are many problems with the way they calculate it, but I will say that like puppy’s owners rarely get just one, and all they do is take the total number and divide it by the population. Another issue is countries were military, police, etc get to keep guns in the house. These don’t count however because they don’t “own” the gun so it doesn’t county.


SpicyChicken

Con

You keep using one example from a couple of sources. One example does not prove your whole point. There are many other cases where people do die from guns. If you are denying that guns can actually kill people, there is a problem. Which do you think is more likely, a man killing someone with a gun or poison? And which do you think is more accessible? Which is the higher percentage of people dying, guns or liver cancer? Guns can kill people. It's simple. Get out of the bubble. It makes no sense that introducing the ability to kill people actually drops homicide rates. That's like saying if you give a psychopath a gun, he is actually less likely to commit homicide, because that makes total sense. Your evidence to back up your claims make no sense and don't even follow simple logic. Which do you think is more likely, more people dying from guns, or more people dying from falling off roller coasters. It makes simple sense. Giving a killer a knife or a gun increases the chance of homicide, NOT lowers it. By the way, your evidence is from one situation and is a true out liar in the actual data. Look again. You tell me, which one makes more sense? If I give a kid a candy bar, it's actually lower his chances to eat it, or if I give a kid a candy bar, it'll raise the chances of him eating the candy bar. Listen to logic. Can guns kill people? And if you say no, why does pulling a trigger kill someone? Why are their so many deaths from guns? Why shouldn't we keep them out of the hands of people who we don't know their intentions? Why should we give guns without a background check? To defend the people? There is barely any threat from other nations and war. To hunt? They might just be saying that so they can do whatever they want with the gun. To you, which is more important, a hunting trip, or a life?
Debate Round No. 3
Coveny

Pro

Yes, I’m focusing on homicides in my discussions, and I’m using several official unbiased sources to pull the numbers from while you are using sites which have an agenda against guns and are twisting the data or just lie on the data to fit their narrative. This is my point, that guns are not the problem, they do not cause more death, they cause less death.

I’m not denying guns kill people. Just because guns kill people doesn’t mean it’s the problem. As I have shown from multiple sites guns reduce homicides, rape and robbery. Get out of your bubble. Guns are a tool that kills, but overall saves lives. Unlike cars which is a tool, that does not save ANY lives, and kills three times as many people. You didn’t respond about cars, nor do you feel like they need to be banned.


I’m going to use your psychopath with a gun example. Now if guns are banned he’s still going to kill people. I have yet to see a dead psychopath kill anyone.


I’m glad you brought it up. You are three times more people die from falling than homicides by guns. Don’t you think ladders are too accessible? I’ve never seen a ladder save any lives, all it does is kill people!


If you thought the above paragraph was ridiculous, awesome, because that’s your argument. Ladders and cars kill three times more people than homicides. THREE TIMES. If we use your stance then you should be on board to ban them.


You cannot prevent a “killer” from getting a deadly weapon. The worst mass killings used a bomb, and all those ingredients are easily purchase without a background check. Let’s take the Orlando shooting killed 50 and injured 53.

http://timelines.latimes.com...

Let’s compare that to the Oklahoma City bombing killed 168 people and injured over 500.

http://www.masslive.com...

The worst bombing kill three times as many people and injured ten times as many people as the shooting. The ingredients used in that bombing are easier to get than a gun. Check the two lists and you’ll find bombs a lot deadlier than guns when we talk about mass killings. And if you wanted to, you could make a bomb out of ingredients that required no ID, no background check, or anything.


Let’s go back to your stance. If you can keep fertilizer away from people, why aren’t we? Why are there so many fertilizer deaths if fertilizer isn’t the problem? Shouldn’t we keep it out of the hands of people who we don’t know what their intentions are? Why should we sell fertilizer without a background check? To plant crops? There is barely any threat of starvation in the US, this seems like an unacceptable risk to let them have fertilizer. They don’t need to grow their own crops; they can just buy them at the store like everyone else. Which is more important to you, a garden or a life?


In conclusion, the list of things that are more likely to kill against your will in the US over a gun is high. Homicides account for less than 1% of the deaths in this country, and as I have shown guns deter even more deaths from happening unlike cars, ladders, and most likely even fertilizer. (we don’t have a big starvation problem in the US) If the idea of getting rid of cars, ladders, and fertilizer is ridiculous to you, then the idea of getting rid of guns should be three times as ridiculous. I am using these examples to prove a point, and that point is that guns are not the problem, just like cars, ladders, and fertilizer aren’t the problem.


We will always have violence, and well will always have a small percentage of people who prey on others. This small group expands when they have no fear for their own life. As a 6ft 2in male I can overpower a good portion of the population, but I have a daughter who isn’t 6ft 2in, and although there are some non-lethal alternatives, they all involve risking that they will work. Death works on everyone, no exceptions. As colt said he may not have made man, but he made all men equal. And I’m a big advocate of equality.

SpicyChicken

Con

Your sources must be horrible because only 15,450 people die from ladders in the US and more than 30,000 die from guns. If you want an example to prove my point, Australia banned guns completely and what ended up happening is homicide rates went down by 59%, suicides went down by 65% and the amount of home invasions did not increase either, which is one fear of the NRA and other people and gun owners have. The people even liked the law and its effects, making the public support for them 90% as an approval rating.

Guns do have a correlation with shootings, suicides and homicides, banning guns does solve the problem, thanks to evidence from Australia, and one more thing, every time a gun is used in self defense, there are 11 completed or attempted suicides, 7 criminal assaults or homicides by them, and 4 in an unintentional shooting that kills and injures someone. Guns are the problem. Unless you are blind, you can see that.

You mentioned earlier that you have a daughter. A woman's chance of being murdered in a domestic dispute increases by 500% with guns around. Medical costs in the United States cost $2.3 billion and costing taxpayers $1.1 billion for guns. There is also $1.4 billion spent on Medicaid and medical care from taxpayers It isn't just effecting the whole population, it's wasting taxpayer money on things that could be gone. In most states, a background check is not needed, making the whole population, including drug dealers, rapists, murderers, many criminals, human traffickers, and more the ability to carry a gun.

There is no need to protect ourselves from guns either, as there is no real threat from other nations that even gives us the right to own them. They don't protect the people, waste tax money that could be spent on other benevolent things, lead to higher homicide and suicide rates and getting rid of them solves the problem. I really don't know why we have not made the change sooner if we could stop this much bad from going on in the United States.

If we want to aspire to be the greatest nation in the world, why not join the others. In Germany, to get a gun you have to be 25 and pass a psychiatric test, both are not required here. Another country, France, requires no criminal record, a test of mental health, physical health, and most of those we don't require them. There have been a lot of mass shootings from 1982 to 2012, and none of them were stopped by a gun.

Guns do not solve problems, only make them worse, kill people, waste money, cause higher crime rates, allow women to be shot more, black men are 14 times more likely to die from guns, waste time, waste government funding, take too much time in political debates and overall are horrible. There is a lot of evidence that banning guns will solve the problems that our nation faces today. I'm glad I debated Coveny because he makes good arguments and is very respectable and unlike most, his views are backed up with claims. Good Debate. Make sure to vote for the winner!

URL of Sources:
http://heedinggodscall.org...
https://www.cdc.gov...
http://gun-control.procon.org...
http://www.slate.com...
http://www.cnn.com...
Debate Round No. 4
6 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 6 records.
Posted by SpicyChicken 9 months ago
SpicyChicken
Las Vegas would let Pro win...
Posted by whiteflame 1 year ago
whiteflame
*******************************************************************
>Reported vote: Cinnamon// Mod action: Removed<

7 points to Pro. Reasons for voting decision: Con's point doesn't prove that guns are the problem. Con mostly states that guns kill people. Technically, people kill people and they will do it with or without guns.

[*Reason for removal*] (1) The voter doesn"t explain conduct, S&G or sources. (2) Arguments are insufficiently explained. The voter is required to assess arguments made by both sides in the debate. Merely assessing Con"s arguments is not sufficient.
************************************************************************
Posted by Coveny 1 year ago
Coveny
You are trolling me in comments on like what 3 or 4 debates now? So it's not an unfair assumption that you are talking to me rather than my opponent...
Posted by Herooftheyear 1 year ago
Herooftheyear
I already knew that. Always assuming ignorance, Must be bleak.
Posted by Coveny 1 year ago
Coveny
I get that you are trolling me, but I'm on the side of NOT banning guns in this debate. Just a little bit of reading... I mean just a little bit.
Posted by Herooftheyear 1 year ago
Herooftheyear
Making a bomb using house hold supplies is easy and capable of doing more damage, should these get banned too ya big government loving person?!?!
No votes have been placed for this debate.