The Instigator
Internationalist
Con (against)
Losing
1 Points
The Contender
SuperiorArsenal
Pro (for)
Winning
3 Points

Halo Universe vs. Mass Effect Universe

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Post Voting Period
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after 1 vote the winner is...
SuperiorArsenal
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 4/15/2013 Category: Entertainment
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 5,341 times Debate No: 32524
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (5)
Votes (1)

 

Internationalist

Con

Format:
Round 1 - Each state our positions and various arguments.
Rounds 2 to 4 - Each present counters to each others arguments.
Round 5 - Closing statements and final remarks.
Since you were pro in your last debate I have left you to be pro again.
I have set time to argue at 72 hours (though I doubt we will be needing it all) with a character max of 8,000.

Rules: The burden of proof is shared, I must prove my point as much as I must counter your point and vice versa. Other than, that all content from either universe is fair game and there are really no rules.

And with that let us begin! If I have forgotten anything or you want to alter the rules message me or we can use the comments so we don't waste our argument space.

Position: I purport that the entire combined forces of the Mass Effect Universe would defeat the entire combined forces of the Halo Universe.

1. Technology: admittedly probably one of the more difficult areas to judge, as both could be seen as evenly matched, Mass Effect does outdo Halo in several ways. Most prominently the mass effect technology and element zero. This technology allows mass effect fields to be harnessed and used for travel, shielding, weapons, biotics, etc. Travel wise it allows galaxy wide travel for all space faring races, a feat barely matched by the Forerunners and Precursors (http://halo.wikia.com...). While the factions of Mass Effect cannot enter slipspace, their FTL (faster than light) drives allow for decent paced exploration of space between solar systems. Weapons utilize the mass effect technology putting them above the less advanced ballistic weapons of the UNSC and closer to the technology of the Covenant. Shield wise both seem about on par, both easily condensed to human size (or variable for aliens) and ship size. However Mass Effect gains a clear lead in the fields of biotics, with various species possessing differing levels of biotic capabilities, the best being Asari. The strength of a single biotic reaching as far as to destroy an entire installation (Jack) or even a ship (Wrex).

2. Races: each race in Mass Effect posses unique qualities just as in Halo, the major advantage Mass Effect has here is the shear number of races. From the militaristic Turians, to the economic Volus and the engineering Quarian masters, each has a very particular talent to add to the combined force. In a fight of brute force, the Korgan (with a redundant nervous system, extra set of organs and semi liquid innards making them impervious to being paralized) and Yahg (whose massive size, strength and ferocity are nigh unmatched) would prove an admirable force for even the strongest and mot experienced Brute or Hunter. The stealth and infiltration abilities of the Salarian STG and Drell combatants wold prove more than a match for the best Elite scouts and warriors. The Alliance and Turian navies combined would far outgun the UNSC and provide an equally footed opponent for the covenant forces, let alone standing beside the other races. Of course, the races of the current cycle pale in comparison to the Protheans, the race who conquered and subjugated the entire Milky Way, again outshining the colonial accomplishments of the Forerunners.

3. Protagonists: while honestly very insignificant in the long run, the protagonists do play pivotal roles in their respective universes and deserve some recognition. Shepherd is (after the opening events of Mass Effect 2) cybernetically enhanced he by no means rivals Master Chiefs genetic enhancements (I'm assuming default soldier Shepherd) and MJOLNIR armour. He can, however arguably, boast greater achievements with his less impressive enhancements. He has faced down several of the most powerful biotics, went mono e mono with a Yahg, faced down a reaper and Leviathans and has broken through indoctrination that has taken over the most brilliant and resilient of minds. He is also a commander of a ship and of an elite team on top of uniting the entirety of the galaxy against the Reaper invasion putting his leadership and tactical skill above that of Master Chiefs.

4. Reapers: these unrelenting, incredibly powerful and numerous foes are completely unmatched in the Halo Universe. The closest competition is The Flood, who are still just organic beings, unlike the organic-synthetic synthesis of the Reapers. Where just a handful of Reapers can hold firm against the best the Mass Effect Universe can throw at them, the entirety of the Reaper invasion easily destroyed the most advanced civilization in Mass Effect lore (since the Leviathans) with barely a kipper scuffed. To top off their advantages come their home, dark space, outside the Milky Way. This means even activating the Halo Rings and obliterating the galaxy would leave the Reapers intact.

5. Diversity: touched on by Javik as the reason the current cycle has held out so long is their diversity. All races being unique and having their own strategies means even the Reapers had a difficult time anticipating their enemies moves. They have been shown to be capable of reaching true organizational harmony (Mass Effect 3) where they banded together to effectively fight the Reapers at Earth. As stated before, the sheer number of races in Mass Effect is an immense advantage, an advantage that can be multiplied tenfold if the synthesis ending of Mass Effect 3 is considered canon. In Halo, the UNSC fights as one force, the Flood and the Covenant fight as one force (as you introduce more factions I will expand my point here) meaning it is effectively upwards of 10 Mass Effect factions (The Alliance, Turians, Asari, Cerberus, Reapers, Collectors, Salarians, Krogan, Rachni and Protheans) vs. 4 or 5 Halo factions (UNSC, Covenant, The Flood, Forerunners and Precursors).

I look forward to reading your side and points, and I apologize for my lateness!
SuperiorArsenal

Pro

I am very eager to debate this topic with you, and am looking forward to a thorough analysis of both sides. As expected, I will be taking the stance that the combined forces of Halo would defeat those of Mass Effect. As you have done, I will present my various arguments.


1. Technology: This isn’t so much about Halo’s technological superiority (Especially the Forerunners, but they are a point all their own), but rather the trappings of Mass Effect’s own technology. A major plot point in Mass Effect is how the all the factions, even the Reapers to an extent, are dependant on the Mass Relays. Relays only go to other relays, all of which are only located in Mass Effect territory. Yes, it is true that Mass effect ships have their own FTL drives independent of the Relays, but they are horribly sluggish compared to Slip-space, and requires regular discharge over extended travel periods. Slip-space is not limited to specific points, and is far faster than Mass Effect non-Relay FTL (The Covenant, and now the UNSC, achieve about 912 ly/d [http://www.halopedia.org...], while the Reapers get about 30 ly/d [http://masseffect.wikia.com...], meaning Halo is about 30x faster). This makes it horrendously hard for Mass Effect to take the offensive in any timely manner.


2. Population and Quality: Halo boasts quite a population advantage, even if only counting the UNSC and Covenant. The Elites, on their home-world, have a population of 8 billion [http://www.halopedia.org...]. This neglects that most Elites actively serve in the military and are away. Mass Effect humans have an Earth population of 11.4 billion [http://masseffect.wikia.com...], while Halo Earth has a population of around 23 billion (Halo: Evolutions). Of course, population is only one aspect. Even the lowliest Covenant soldiers, Grunts, are more durable and stronger than Humans. Jackals are faster and have hyper-keen senses. Elites are extremely resilient and can match SPARTAN-IIs in strength (Lifting about 3 tons). Brutes are massively stronger than SPARTANs and can move just as quickly (30mph-60mph). Hunters are 12 ton armored hulks that lift their two-ton shield as if it were a simple paper-weight. Even more and more humans are being put into the SPARTAN-IV program, producing and armed force of highly skilled super-soldiers.


3. Space Combat: In the end of things, this is the only thing that really matters. The most powerful, expensive, and rare Mass Effect ships, Dreadnaughts, boast an impressive 38 kilotons of kinetic energy in their main weapon [http://masseffect.wikia.com...]. Unfortunately, Halo Frigates, the most common and weakest mainline ship in Halo, have 64 kilotons of kinetic energy per round (Halo: The Fall of Reach). See the problem Mass Effect faces here? Not only this, but Mass Effect barriers only block kinetic weapons. They are extremely vulnerable to the heat and DEW based Covenant weapons (i.e. Plasma Torpedoes, Assault Beam, and so on) that would wreck, if not completely bypass, the barriers in single hits.


4. The Flood: While in the early stages, they don’t seem all that of a threat. However, the Flood is extremely dangerous. A sentient, parasitic, physics-defying infection that is nigh-unstoppable. Every mind they infect adds to their combined knowledge. Infect a mechanic? Every Flood now knows how to repair an engine. This applies to navigation data, military secrets, and potentially technological specifications. Unless orbital bombardment occurs within the first fifteen minutes of arrival, the Flood will completely cover a planet in their biomass within weeks, if not days. Far faster than the Reapers could occupy planets, who take months and still do not achieve total dominance of the planet. What is even worse is that every FTL-capable vessel stolen is now headed on an infection vector. This could be thousands, even millions of possible vectors, spreading themselves far and wide through Mass Effect faster than anyone can do anything about it.


5. The Forerunners: Probably your nail-in-the-coffin. The Forerunners, in all aspects, outclass anything and everything in Mass Effect by an inconceivable margin. They have 3 million planets under their control. That is more planets than Mass Effect has ships in its combined navy. Individual Warrior-Servants can control combat ships at a ratio of one to one million. They have the production capacity to construct multiple Dyson spheres with diameters spanning multiple astronomical units, as side projects. Capitol ships are larger than the Citadel itself. War Sphinxes, out-dated combat suits, can devastate Forerunner cities (Which span entire continents). Even the Didact’s ship in Halo 4 withstood the entire Earth defense grid, 300 Super-MACs, each firing 50 or so gigatons of kinetic energy every five seconds. To put that in perspective, it would take a Mass Effect Dreadnought 30 days firing constantly to achieve the energy of ONE SMAC round. Their FTL speeds can cross the Milky Way in about 2 hours. Their space-warfare is so complex that ships fight in and out of slipspace at the same time. Mass Effect, as a whole, would not even register as a threat to a single Forerunner cruiser, let alone their entire empire.

I am eagerly waiting for your next round.

Debate Round No. 1
Internationalist

Con

Arguments:

1. Technology: while the Halo forces may have the advantage of travel in shorter distances, they end up being equal footed in longer range travel. The mass effect relays allow ships to travel 100's of light years (secondary relays) or 1000's of light years (primary relays). Though primary relays are limited to 1 other relay, there are enough relays to allow timely travel from one side of the galaxy to the other and there are many still dormant relays that can be easily activated. Further it is near impossible to destroy the relays due to their quantum shields and their subatomic structure which locks up under threat. If the Halo force did destroy one, the resulting destruction would encompass the force present, as they have the power to destroy an entire solar system. Since you did not address it, I will point out that races of the Mass Effect universe can manipulate element zero (though some much more effectively than others), giving them an enormous edge in combat.

http://masseffect.wikia.com...

2. Population & Quality: Humanity may be more populated in the Halo universe than in the Mass Effect universe, but it is not necessarily a good thing. A population of 23 billion would drain Earth of its resources and present all various sorts of logistical problems as opposed to the 11.4 billion of Mass Effect. Therefore I point out that the population of Earth is a hindrance and not a boon. Concerning the the alien races, the number of races in Mass Effect give it the advantage of having a larger population, while no race having the problem of being over population. Looking at the three main other races (Asari, Turian and Salarian respectively) home planets, Thessia (5.5 billion), Palaven (6.1 billion) and Sur'Kesh (10.3 billion). This as well ignores the extremely quick breeding of Vorcha and Krogan (post or pre-genophage) Concerning Quality. Grunts in the Halo universe may be more resilient than humans but still remain easily dispatched by anything more than an experienced company of marines and sport an easily manipulated weakness, their suits. Much like the Volus of Mass Effect, they must rely on their suit to survive, damage to it in any way would be the end of that grunt. Brutes find a formidable foe in the Krogan who come in at over 7 ft (shorter than the 8.5 ft Brutes) and over 1 ton armour clad (more than twice the .463 ton Brutes). Krogans also boast an extremely long lifespan due to their redundant secondary and tertiary organs and nervous system. In the case of Elites, they are
comparable to possessing qualities of 2 races in Mass Effect, Turians and Salarians. They possess the militarism of the Turians, to the extent that both model their societies around the military. They are also agile and intelligent much like the Salarians, however have allowed their militarism to take precedence over science. This means that when faced with a combined force of Turians and Salarians, Elites have a match, very equal. Hunters, are interestingly comparable to the Geth. A Hunter stands at just over 12 ft. the same height as a Geth Prime. Primes have six levels of shielding which would adequately stand against the assault canon of Hunters. As well, being Geth they are more effective when more of their units are present, or going by their prime after the events on Ranoch they are true AI. Perhaps the largest advantage held by the Geth in terms of units is the Colossus, the size of a large tank with true AI, these monoliths possess a siege canon, and a mass accelerator machine gun making it effective against both infantry and armour. As well as possessing a self repair protocol, a colossus outright outclass all Covenant ground units.

http://halo.wikia.com...
http://halo.wikia.com...
http://halo.wikia.com...
http://halo.wikia.com...

http://masseffect.wikia.com...
http://masseffect.wikia.com...
http://masseffect.wikia.com...
http://masseffect.wikia.com...
http://masseffect.wikia.com...

3. Space combat: while you are correct that UNSC ships possess superior firepower (I would appreciate a source, but I`m taking your word on it) you also pointed out the flaw in your argument. UNSC weapons would be severely weakened against the kinetic shielding of Mass Effect ships, as well even post war UNSC not all ships were outfitted
with energy shields meaning regardless of the payload, a round fired at these ships would cause considerable damage. Further, a flaw with energy shields themselves is that they need to be lowered in order to fire plasma weapons, leaving, as the UNSC exploited many times, a critical opening. They are also very vulnerable to plasma weapons, which
are used most prominently by the Geth and Protheans. Capital Ship class Reapers are fitted with a magnetohydrodynamic cannon that has a yield of up to 450 kilotons of kinetic force while being a non-kinetic weapon as it is molten metal. This means it can penetrate energy shielding with ease and deal considerable damage.

http://masseffect.wikia.com...
http://masseffect.wikia.com...
http://masseffect.wikia.com...

4. Flood: while the abilities of the Flood are impressive they are by no means unique. The Protheans, Geth, Rachni and Reapers all possess a way of transferring information from one body to the next (perhaps the Geth most effectively). The Reapers and Leviathans also possess indoctrination as a weapon of enslavement and entrapment,
comparable to that of the Floods, all they need do is capture one Halo vessel and send it back with some Reaper tech. As far as dominating a planet goes, the Reapers were able to completely disarm all of Earths defenses and occupy all major settlements in a matter of minutes where the best the local resistance could do was not die.

5. Forerunners: It`s true the Forerunners are vastly superior in many ways to the Mass Effect factions, they do have their flaws. Their shielding, as described by the wiki is very similar to that of the Covenants (where it is believed the Covenant got their technology from) meaning the plasma and molten weapons of Mass Effect factions would
obliterate. Again I don't doubt you but I could not find any information about the warrior-servants abilities, however Harbinger was able to control the entire race of Collectors, and the Rachni Queens are able to fully command scores and scores of beings, not necessarily of their own race. The Protheans had colonized the entire Milky Way galaxy as well as subdue/destroy all known species, something the Forerunners still had not accomplished despite having over 3 million worlds, and as previously stated the Mass Effect relays allow for nearly just as quick traversing of the galaxy as the Forerunners slip space.

http://halo.wikia.com...
http://masseffect.wikia.com...

I must admit, this is a much more difficult debate than anticipated.
SuperiorArsenal

Pro

Technology:

==

“The mass effect relays allow ships to travel 100's of light years (secondary relays) or 1000's of light years (primary relays). Though primary relays are limited to 1 other relay, there are enough relays to allow timely travel from one side of the galaxy to the other and there are many still dormant relays that can be easily activated.”

==

The problem here is that Mass Relays only go to other relays, i.e. their own territory. It doesn’t help them on the offensive when they need to make a push into hostile territory. Meanwhile, Slipspace allows Halo forces to travel anywhere at a high rate of “speed.”

==

“Further it is near impossible to destroy the relays due to their quantum shields and their subatomic structure which locks up under threat. If the Halo force did destroy one, the resulting destruction would encompass the force present, as they have the power to destroy an entire solar system.”

==

You don’t need to destroy them, per se. As seen in Halo: Reach, a rigged slipspace drive will open a slipspace portal (Judging by the size comparison to the 27km Long Night of Solace, it was easily 10km-20km in diameter, more than enough to consume a Relay), taking whatever is unlucky enough to be within the event horizon into slipspace. No destruction, merely teleporting it to a separate dimension. Actually, Forerunners do this sort of thing in ship-to-ship combat anyways. Even still, what is so bad about destroying a Relay? Sure, you may lose the fleet sent to do the job, but you also obliterate a Mass Effect solar system and cut off critical Relay travel networks. I’d say the net winner there is Halo.

==

“Since you did not address it, I will point out that races of the Mass Effect universe can manipulate element zero (though some much more effectively than others), giving them an enormous edge in combat.”

==

Their implementation of Element Zero in combat technology has its advantages, but it also comes with its drawbacks. Kinetic Barriers don’t fare well against DEWs that are prominent through the Covenant, and are the staple of Forerunner weaponry. Meanwhile, Halo shielding technology is that of the “always-on” variety that stops projectile and DEW weapons alike.

==


Population:

==

“A population of 23 billion would drain Earth of its resources and present all various sorts of logistical problems as opposed to the 11.4 billion of Mass Effect. Therefore I point out that the population of Earth is a hindrance and not a boon.”

==

You would have a point if the UNSC didn’t have hundreds of planets, with a good portion that serve as large resource supplies. They had no problem maintaining their un-glassed planets despite 30 years of genocidal warfare and billions of lives lost. That would make a 10 or so billion population gap quite an advantage.

==

“Concerning Quality. Grunts in the Halo universe may be more resilient than humans but still remain easily dispatched by anything more than an experienced company of marines and sport an easily manipulated weakness, their suits. Much like the Volus of Mass Effect, they must rely on their suit to survive, damage to it in any way would be the end of that grunt.”

==

The main advantage is their ability to be deployed en masse. On large scale invasions, hundreds of thousands, even millions of grunts can be deployed. You would think this would damage their overall population, but it is actually considered healthy for it. Kind of hard to defeat an opponent when they can have millions die in combat and consider it a good thing.

==

“Brutes find a formidable foe in the Krogan who come in at over 7 ft (shorter than the 8.5 ft Brutes) and over 1 ton armour clad (more than twice the .463 ton Brutes)”

==

Brutes make up for being lower in weight with their tremendous strength and speed. In Halo: First Strike, John-117 comments that a Brute moves just as fast as he can, which is upwards of 30mph-60mph. Not only this, but they can strong-arm SPARTAN-IIs with ease, and SPARTAN-IIs in MJOLNIR can flip 3 ton vehicles without straining too much. Not to mention Brutes are known for being extremely tough to put down, requiring dozens of armor-piercing rounds to the chest region to slow them down, even more when wearing their powered armor. In Mass Effect, Wrex can be easily hit down by Shepard, who, at the time, was not augmented.

==

“In the case of Elites, they are
comparable to possessing qualities of 2 races in Mass Effect, Turians and Salarians. They possess the militarism of the Turians, to the extent that both model their societies around the military. They are also agile and intelligent much like the Salarians, however have allowed their militarism to take precedence over science. This means that when faced with a combined force of Turians and Salarians, Elites have a match”

==

While they may lack the scientific expertise of the Salarians (Though Engineers make up for that quite easily, even more so when you throw in UNSC and Forerunner AI technology), they are far stronger than Turians. Elites are considered equal to the strength of SPARTAN-IIs, whom you already have a good idea of strength-wise.

==

“Perhaps the largest advantage held by the Geth in terms of units is the Colossus, the size of a large tank with true AI, these monoliths possess a siege canon, and a mass accelerator machine gun making it effective against both infantry and armour. As well as possessing a self repair protocol, a colossus outright outclass all Covenant ground units”

==

Good thing the Covenant has heavier armor like the Locust, or the dreaded Scarab. It also is a good thing that the Covenant actively uses air-support (Banshees, Phantoms, Spirits, Seraphs, Vampires), something that Colossuses are extremely vulnerable to, having no real Anti-Air defenses to speak of.

==
At this point, I will link you to the rest of the argument as detailed in the comments. I hope you learn how to do the same and urge you to expand your arguement past the character limit in the next round if you need to, because you can only get so much analysis in with 8,000 characters.
http://www.debate.org...


Debate Round No. 2
Internationalist

Con

I have to apologize SuperiorArsenal, I am afraid I cannot continue the debate. My schedule is allowing for less and less time, on top of the fact that you are clearly more versed than I in both universes. You have also managed to convince me that the forces of Halo would defeat the forces of Mass Effect very easily and so I concede. Not the victory you hoped for I'm sure. I am truly sorry that yet again someone has conceded to you in the midst of a debate, but I hope eventually we can have a go again, possibly on another topic.
SuperiorArsenal

Pro

SuperiorArsenal forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
Internationalist

Con

Internationalist forfeited this round.
SuperiorArsenal

Pro

SuperiorArsenal forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
Internationalist

Con

Internationalist forfeited this round.
SuperiorArsenal

Pro

SuperiorArsenal forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 5
5 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
Posted by SuperiorArsenal 3 years ago
SuperiorArsenal
The trick is, make a debate, fill it with the continuation, then cancel it immediatly. Then proceed to put a link to it into your argument. That's what I do, anyways.
Posted by Internationalist 3 years ago
Internationalist
I'm fine with adding extensions to arguments. Not sure the best way, maybe just here in the comments section?
Posted by SuperiorArsenal 3 years ago
SuperiorArsenal
Extensions as in links to a continuation of an argument? Though I don't think I'll need one in the first round.
Posted by Internationalist 3 years ago
Internationalist
I am assuming they are in full force. All factions alive or extinct are fair as I have already used the Protheans. And extensions are good by me, I'm in no hurry.
Posted by SuperiorArsenal 3 years ago
SuperiorArsenal
Are the Forerunners present for this in full or in remnants? I wouldn't want to take up arguement space arguing the wrong incarnation.
I also assume debate extensions are prohibited.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by Pennington 3 years ago
Pennington
InternationalistSuperiorArsenalTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:13 
Reasons for voting decision: I give conduct to Con for his concession and Pro FF's. I give arguments to Pro, well, Con himself admitted Pro had a better argument.