The Instigator
LaL36
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
Kc1999
Con (against)
Winning
3 Points

Hamas is more at fault for the current suffering of Palestinians than Israel.

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Post Voting Period
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after 1 vote the winner is...
Kc1999
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 8/6/2014 Category: Politics
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,292 times Debate No: 60071
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (1)
Votes (1)

 

LaL36

Pro

I have already posted this debate but it was screwed up so I made minor changes to who can accept this debate.

I said Hamas in the title and that is the focus but this also includes other terrorists like them such as whoever was responsible for the murder of the three Israeli teens. By current I mean in the last few months. Just to be clear it is still permitted to bring up an occurrence before if it is relevant. Other than that I think the title says it all but I will define fault. Fault- Responsibility for a problem, mistake, bad situation etc. source: Merriam Webster dictionary.

1st round is for accepting the debate and to what I said above. And a side note please don't accept if you are just going to forfeit or respond with a few sentences because that has happened with me before. Good luck and I look forward to a thought provoking debate.
Kc1999

Con

I would like to thank the opponent for letting me debate this issue. Note that since this is an empirical debate motion, the Burden of Proof lies upon the opponent to prove.

Hamas, although at fault, cannot take more blame than Israel; note at this point that Israel deliberately created Hamas to destroy the Palestinian Liberation Organization; the creation of a sectarian group was deliberate attempt to destroy Palestinian unity. The PLO was secular, and if a secular non-apartheid state was installed, then this crisis would have never happened.

This is a brief outline of the main fact that my entire argument will be based on. Good luck and have fun!

I would like to thank the opponent for letting me debate this issue. Note that since this is an empirical debate motion, the Burden of Proof lies upon the opponent to prove.

Debate Round No. 1
LaL36

Pro

Thank you for accepting and Good luck.

I would like to start by giving the history of Hamas in regard to Israel and Gaza.

Hamas started to gain its political power in the 1980's. My opponent claims that Israel set them up and that they did it to remove the PLO. This is simply false because Hamas was already challenging them in the 80's before Israel even got involved. In the 1990's and early 2000's, before Hamas was elected as the primary leaders of Gaza, they have already conducted numerous suicide bombings. In 2006, contrary to what my opponent claims, an election was set up by a quartet, USA, the UN, Russia, and the European. So my opponent claims that Israel "deliberately created Hamas to destroy the PLO". 1. Israel did not even create Hamas. Prior to these elections Hamas was already attacking Israel why would they want them in power? 2. Prior to these elections Hamas was already challenging the PLO. 3. Even if Israel did put Hamas in power this would not solve the problem because Hamas existed before these elections and challenged the PLO like I said.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-13331522

This part of your outline is just completely false, misguided false, and has no basis.

A leadership's responsibility

A group that is responsible for a large group of people is responsible for protecting its people and this should be a top priority. Ever since Hamas came to power, and even prior to that, they have consistently encouraged suicide bombing and has carried out many attacks. Just a day ago Hamas aired to their children that they should dress up as Jews and conduct suicide bombings. www.wnd.com/2014/08/hamas-tv-dress-up-as-jews-to-carry-out-suicide-attacks/

They have additionally taught children that they should love death and suicide bombing. www.palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=111&fld_id=111&doc_id=1188

In general, if a large group of people under a leadership are attacked once, most of the blame is put on the attacker and some on the leadership. But if a large group of people are consistently attacked, more and more blame goes to the leaders for not preventing it. In the case with Hamas, not only are they not preventing attacks but they are causing them.

Historically, nearly every time Hamas launched rockets, Israel responds. For example, operation pillar of defense which occurred in 2012, was an operation by Israel to prevent rocket attacks and as a result, according to Hamas and Gaza officials, 53 civilians were killed. This was similarly the case in the operation cast lead in 2009 and operation hot winter in 2008. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel www.thechronicleherald.ca/world/188333-hamas-claims-victory-as-ceasefire-starts

It is clear that Hamas knows that Israel is going to respond if they fire rockets so every time Hamas launches rockets, they are endangering their people.

Ironically, the rockets that Hamas aims to hit Israel, has also hit Gaza. At least 100 rockets have hit Gaza. www.algemeiner.com/2014/07/16/idf-says-at-least-100-hamas-rockets-hit-within-gaza/

A rocket even hit a Palestinian home. www.jpost.com/Operation-Protective-Edge/Gaza-rocket-hits-Bethlehem-home-no-injuries-370097

A rocket additionally hit a Palestinian hospital. www.wnd.com/2014/07/hamas-rockets-fall-short-strike-gaza-hospital-refugee-camp/

And to top it off, a rocket hit the power supply that provides electricity for over 70,000 Palestinians. therightscoop.com/hamas-rocket-takes-out-gaza-electricity-line-in-israel-netanyahu-says-not-to-fix-it/

To summarize, Hamas not only has not protected its people from these attacks, but they triggered them by launching rockets and are responsible for many of their deaths by telling them to be suicide bombers.

The Use of Palestinians as Human Shields

Another way Hamas uses its people for its selfish political purposes. Hamas has been doing this as long as they were around. They are currently doing this and they even admit to this. www.algemeiner.com/2014/08/07/conclusive-proof-that-hamas-uses-palestinians-as-human-shields/

They have also told their civilians to stay and disregard Israel's warnings to free in order to protect their missiles and equipment. www.palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=157&doc_id=12019

They have told their civilians to gather on roofs to prevent Israeli airstrikes and they have listened. mfa.gov.il/MFA/ForeignPolicy/Terrorism/Pages/Hamas-again-uses-Gazan-civilians-as-human-shields-July-2014.aspx

Hamas Operates Right Next to its Civilians

Hamas fires many of its rockets from major hospitals. www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/183621

They additionally fire from homes, schools, and mosques. www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/07/27/a-school-a-cemetery-a-babys-crib-the-disturbing-spots-where-hamas-is-allegedly-launching-rockets-and-storing-bombs/

This endangers all of the Palestinians because when Israel targets to get rid of these rockets, many innocent civilians are near them.

That will be it for my opening arguments. With that being said I turn it over to Con. I look forward to his response.
Kc1999

Con

I thank the opponent for his reply. Firstly, before I start with this debate, I would like to define some terms:


Current Suffering should be defined as the suffering in the status quo; i.e the start of the new Israeli Military Offensive against Hamas


At Fault is defined as the “cause” of this current suffering; the person inflicting the most damage. Etc.


For the opponent to win in this debate, the opponent has to prove that Hamas holds more responsibility in Israel’s action in Operation Protective Edge.


2R1NRC: On the Creation of Hamas


Israel deliberately created Hamas to fight against Palestinian Liberation Organization; not directly, but by the act of acquiescence. After the 1967 “Six Day War” with Egypt, Israel started to arrest and consequent dismantling of the secular Palestinian Liberation Organization; at this point, one must observe that the PLO is secular in nature, and adheres to the policy of Social Democracy and Palestinian Nationalism.


Israel, in order to counter this, encouraged Islamic sectarian sentiments in Gaza; Ahmed Yassin, an Islamic Sheik, was benefitted by this. It is clear here that Israel still thought of the secular PLO as the main enemies; the Israeli Governor of Gaza in 1979 stated that “Fatah was our main enemy” [1]


At this point, Yassin set up an Islamic Charity, in which the Governor of Gaza ignorantly stated that this “charity was set up for peaceful purposes only” It was more than clear what Yassin’s intentions were. Conflicts between both factions broke out; the situation was going too well for the Israelis. In 1984, the Israeli Governor arrested Yassin when they found weapon caches in his charity; however, Yassim stated that these weapons were going to be used against the secular Palestinians only. After Yassim’s release, Avner Cohen, a religious affair official, submitted a report warning of this growing Islamic movement. This report was ignored; the current situation was about to explode, as if it were lava from a long inactive volcano. [1]


After an incident in which six Palestinians were killed by an Israeli drive, Gaza went up all in flames. In 1987, the words “Hamas” appeared on a leaflet for the first time; this leaflet was written by Yassim’s charity organization, which has so long been allowed and even supported by Israeli Agencies. [1]


Firstly, we have to raise inquiries; Israel, whose hatred of Palestinians drove them to create disunity in Palestine, could have stopped the creation of Hamas if it had arrested Yassin and dismantled his charity. But they did not; ­did they, in this case, created Hamas indirectly?


Secondly, why did Israel ignore reports of the growing Hamas threats? Avner Cohen, surveying the damage that his bungalow received from a Hamas rocket, recorded that “Hamas was an enormous, stupid mistake” Note that he was the same person who wrote reports to the Israeli Government regarding the development of Hamas. [2]


The opponent allegedly states that Hamas was not the creation of Israel because they are already fighting each other in the 1980s. This is a vague description; notice that the Gaza then was still under de facto Israeli rule. Apart from that, the opponent concerns himself with mainly the affairs of the 21st century, henceforth ignoring all that came before the 21st century. Note that this contention is based upon the creation of Hamas, not the empowering of Hamas. Hamas was democratically elected in 2006, as the opponent states; this was Israel’s gravest mistake.


2R2NRC: Weapons


The weapon analysis of both sides is necessary for the understanding of this argument to be complete.


Firstly, we have to look at the Palestinian rockets; almost all rockets fired by Palestine are a Qassam Rocket. These Qassam Rockets are simple, but devastating. Propelled by a single mixture of sugar and potassium nitrate, the rocket carries a simple scavenged TNT charge; usually 10kg at most. These have a range of 9km only. [3] It is estimated that the Hamas and its fighting brigades, the Aal-Qassam Brigades, have fired 2,800 of these rockets into Israel. Israel has done a great job of protecting their citizens against this threat; since the introduction of this rocket, the Iron Dome missile system has been emplaced to fight this threat. The Iron Dome is a defensive missile system that shoots down short range rockets and long range artillery projectile; this system is very expensive, and has saved many Israeli lives. [4]


With this said, we have to look at this from an Israeli perspective. Whilst Gaza launches homemade rockets at Israel, Israel launches attacks from F-16 strike fighter and possibly the A-4 Douglass. These two planes are one of the most feared planes in the modern world; the F-16 has an extensive armament, a very fast top speed, and flies at attitudes where few RPGs can reach. Israel has launched, from February, 1,300 airstrikes against Gaza and Hamas; keep in mind that when we compare the payload between the two weapons (the F-16 and the normal Qassam rocket), the F-16 has a payload of 7,000kg. With the F-16, Israel has also deployed missiles against the inhabitants of Gaza; in combination with the air-attacks, Israel has launched a total of 1,300 attacks against Gaza, most of these attacks from conventional weapons against innocent civilians. Gaza has launched, in return, only 2,890 crude rockets into Israel, most of which were shot down. The inhabitants of Gaza have no form of robotic missile defense against such a payload. [5][6]


With this being said, we can conclude (with this opponent’s data) that whilst 42 attacks misfired, the devastation caused by this attack was not as much as the 1,300 airstrikes launched by Israel to deliberately attack innocent inhabitants of Gaza. Apart from airstrikes, Israel has targeted schools deliberately; it has so far hit seven UN designated housing areas! There is absolutely no justification for this; the last one hit with an Israeli attack sheltered 3,000 displaced inhabitants of Gaza, and killed 10 along with wounding another 35. So far, Israel has killed 2,000 inhabitants of Gaza, whilst the Hamas (not even the inhabitants of Gaza) killed three Israeli teens. [6][7]


Israel’s attack are often launched without much precedent; Israel still has to account for the killing of many Palestinians, especially one several hours after the death of the three children, in which a Palestinian citizen was abducted and burned to death by Israeli forces.


2R3NRC: On Leadership


This case will be a quick one; the opponent states that the Hamas teaches children to act in an unsatisfactory way. Well, two objections; Israel has caused so much destruction within Gaza that martyrdom was an act to defy injustice. The destruction as said before was in no way justified; but these suicide bombers have taken the struggle upon their hands, because the destruction of their people cannot be ever justified. Secondly, Hamas was indirectly created by Israel to fight against the secular PLO members, as stated in the first NRC. This was the reason why many suicide bombers decided to sacrifice their lives for the death of these “Israeli thugs” 39.9% of suicide bombings were carried out by Hamas, 26.4% by Fatah, 25.7% by the Palestine Islamic Jihad, 5.4% by the Popular Front of the Liberation of Palestine, and 2% by other organizations during the Second Intifada, causing the deaths of 804 Israeli citizens as of 2008; however, within two month, Israeli attacks have killed 1,900 Palestinians. [6][7][8]


2R4NRC: On the Usage of Human Shields


Conclusive evidence of human shields used by the Hamas is very, at best, slight; the IDF report of the “Urban Warfare” manual was a hoax, as the two 452x250 pixels was not printed on smooth background, yet the text was complete parallel with the book. The book was clearly not printed on smooth ground, but yet the curves, clearly visible in the picture, ends before the text.


IDF Hamas Human Shield Manual a Sloppy Forgery 3


This was the picture of the manual; although the opponent may bring up more contentions to counter this, there is more than conclusive evidence of Israel’s usage of human shields against Palestine. The Israeli Defense Forces admitted in 2005 that 1,500 Palestinian citizens were used as human shields; although the Israeli Supreme Court banned such barbaric practices, there has been more conclusive evidence that this practice has not abandoned yet. In 2009, testimonies were released that show that Israel still used human shields against Palestine. [9] [10] Accordingly to one testimony:


Close in on each house. The method used has a new name now - no longe 'neighbor procedure.' Now people are called 'Johnnie.' They're Palestinian civilians, and they're called Johnnies and there were civilians there who stayed in spite of the flyers the army distributed before it went in.


One cannot be conclusive enough; there are more IDF testimonies that conclude that the practice of human shields did not stop after the banishment of the practice in 2009.


I hand the floor back to the opponent.


Citations:


[1] http://en.wikipedia.org...


[2] online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB123275572295011847


[3] http://en.wikipedia.org...


[4] http://en.wikipedia.org...


[5] http://en.wikipedia.org...


[6] http://en.wikipedia.org...


[7] https://news.vice.com...


[8] http://en.wikipedia.org...


[9] http://scgnews.com...


[10] http://news.bbc.co.uk...


Debate Round No. 2
LaL36

Pro

Thank you for your response.

You claim once again that Israel has deliberately created Hamas. This is blatantly false and you have not proven this. All you did was use my source to prove that Israel was enemies with the PLO. You claim the PLO was secular in nature but they have initiated several attacks against Israeli civilians and therefore Israel responded. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_Attrition

From 1967 and on, the PLO was actually more violent and extreme and not secular contrary to what you have claimed. More and more organizations emerged that conducted attacks against Israelis including the the murder of 9 Israeli athletes in the olympics. www.historylearningsite.co.uk/palestinian_liberation_order.htm

Con you really need to drop this case that Israel is responsible for the creation of Hamas because 1. It is not really relevant as we are comparing whose actions caused more suffering to Palestinians in the current situation. 2. You have not even supported it.

"Firstly, we have to raise inquiries;Israel, whose hatred of Palestinians drove them to create disunity in Palestine, could have stopped the creation of Hamas if it had arrested Yassin and dismantled his charity. But they did not; did they in this case. created Hamas indirectly?"

1. Israel did arrest Yassin once murder of Israelis were conducted. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Hamas You used my source then neglect to mention this. 2. As I have proven in the previous round Hamas was already growing. Not arresting Yassin would not have stopped the creation of Hamas you have no basis to make this claim.

So to answer your question, no, they did not at least there is not enough evidence for you to make such a case.

"Secondly, why did Israel ignore reports of the growing Hamas threats? Avner Cohen, surveying the damage that his bungalow received from a Hamas rocket, recorded that �€""Hamas was an enormous, stupid mistake�€� Note that he was the same person who wrote reports to the Israeli Government regarding the development of Hamas. "

1. It is silly that you are trying to prove that Hamas was formed by Israel based on the view of one Israeli when YOUR OWN SOURCE says that most Israeli soldiers share the few that it was because of Iran which is actually a much more substantiated claim. Iran was looking for a way to show its hate for Israel after 1979. english.alarabiya.net/en/views/news/middle-east/2014/07/25/Does-the-Islamic-Republic-genuinely-support-Hamas-for-the-Palestinian-cause-.html
2. Like both you and I have mentioned Israel was currently at war with other groups including Fatah. All they wanted to do was prevent suicide bombers and other attackers from coming. 3. Israel did not ignore it completely read what I said above.

The opponent allegedly states that Hamas was not the creation of Israel because they are already fighting each other in the 1980s. This is a vague description; notice that the Gaza then was still under de facto Israeli rule. Apart from that, the opponent concerns himself with mainly the affairs of the 21st century, henceforth ignoring all that came before the 21st century. Note that this contention is based upon the creation of Hamas, not the empowering of Hamas. Hamas was democratically elected in 2006, as the opponent states; this was Israel’s gravest mistake.

Con even if you successfully prove that Israel's is responsible for the growth of Hamas, that is not relevant to this debate. What is relevant is how Hamas got elected and as I have proven, Israel had nothing to do with it.

"The opponent allegedly states that Hamas was not the creation of Israel because they are already fighting each other in the 1980s. This is a vague description; notice that the Gaza then was still under de facto Israeli rule. Apart from that, the opponent concerns himself with mainly the affairs of the 21st century, henceforth ignoring all that came before the 21st century. Note that this contention is based upon the creation of Hamas, not the empowering of Hamas. Hamas was democratically elected in 2006, as the opponent states; this was Israel’s gravest mistake."

1. I gave a history of Hamas that was relevant to this debate it was actually my first argument but you have disregarded and accused me of ignoring what came before the 21st century. 2. I concern myself with affairs of the 21st century because I said in round 1 that this is the focus of the debate! 3. Again con I have proven numerous times already Israel hardly is responsible for the growth of Hamas. I have definitely proved that Israel had nothing to with the election of Hamas so you are just writing down untrue statements.

Weapons

My opponent has only stated the rockets Hamas generally uses. This is very misleading and not pertinent to the debate because I have clearly stated in round 1 that I am referring to the rockets used in the last few months so while my opponent gave an irrelevant history of Hamas's rockets let's examine the history that is actually relevant to the debate. Hamas has been firing M-302 rockets at Israel capable of 150 km distance. This is a lot different than what my opponent mentions by only mentioning the weaker ones. These are legitimate rockets used by China and Syria. www.nbcnews.com/storyline/middle-east-unrest/hamas-firing-china-designed-syria-made-m-302-rockets-israel-n152461

The history you give in the first paragraph is completely irrelevant to your case. However, it is relevant to mine. By launching these rockets, it poses a huge threat to Israel and therefore Israel is forced to respond which contributes to the suffering of the Palestinians.

My opponent then brings up how Israeli has higher military capability. There is no need to cite three sources just to prove that it is very clear Israel has stronger military power and no one can testify otherwise. But, you have ignored one of my main arguments which is that with every rocket Hamas launches they know that Israel is going to respond with these airstrikes so it is Hamas that brings on these airstrikes.

My opponent makes an absurd point: The people of Gaza have no missile defense system. This completely helps my case. This is definitely at the fault of Hamas. Well con let's examine a few things and then you tell me that they should have a missile defense system. 1. This will not help prevent the airstrikes. 2. When you give Hamas Israeli concrete for bomb shelters they build tunnels to plan a massive terrorist attack on the Jewish new year. www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/hamas-tunnels-stoke-anxiety-bolstering-israelis-support-of-war/2014/07/31/ae67267e-18e7-11e4-85b6-c1451e622637_story.html

At this point I think you and the voters know why you cannot place anything like that anywhere near Hamas. Hamas has stolen even aid and Palestinians have admitted it. www.israeltoday.co.il/default.aspx?tabid=178&nid=21252

You have also made another baseless and false claim that Israel deliberately attacks innocent civilians and this is not true.
Israel in general always sent leaflets and as I have proven Hamas has told their people to disregard their warnings and use themselves as human shields. If they get killed it is Hamas that is clearly responsible and not Israel. Israel has opened a new hospital for Palestinians to treat them and you say they deliberately want them dead? Hamas in the past has not let them go into Israeli hospitals so who wants who dead? http://www.jpost.com...

You point out that Israel attacked a UN school and that there is no justification. There actually is! Israel is justified to go after the weapons used against its civilians. Again this is at the fault of Hamas for placing their rockets in several UN schools there is no justification for that!

Also not that what you said here is at all relevant to the debate but you said Hamas killed three Israeli teens. Hamas has killed over 67 people including three civilians. You cannot neglect to mention important facts con.

Leadership

Now con I have a HUGE problem with your arguments here. You argue that Israeli attacks in Gaza to dismantle the weapons attacking their civilians are unjustifiable. And yet YOU ARE JUSTIFYING SUICIDE BOMBINGS AND PREACHING OF DEATH TO LITTLE CHILDREN. This is no way justifiable. And your justification is something that occurred in the 1980's! My argument still stands that Hamas on a leadership has not protected their civilians like leaders are responsible for but rather they either endangered or killed their civilians.

Human shields

As much as I would love to address my opponent's arguments on Israel's action in 2009 it is not at all relevant to the debate about the situation in the last few months and I am short on time. I ask my opponent to please stop giving irrelevant arguments and not ignore mine as these actions are bad conduct.

Looking forward to your response.
Kc1999

Con

3R1NRC: On the Arrest of Yassim

The opponent has committed the fallacy known as strawman; i.e misrepresenting my arguments. Firstly, one must observe that the opponent's contention is based upon the post-Intifida period, whilst mines are based on the pre-Intifida period. However, what one must understand was that Israel had intelligence and witnessed Sheikh Ahme Yassin's coming to power and creating the Hamas face-to-face!

Perhaps the opponent might need a clearer picture of what Israel's role in the creation of Hamas was like. In 1979, America supported the Islamist Radicals who wanted to overthrow the King of Iran; they thought that by overthrowing this secular regime, the Islamist Radicals might install a pro-US government. However, precisely the opposite happened; the Reagan Administration made the same mistake in regards to Afghanistan, which spawned Al-Qaida and Taliban. Israel did the same thing; they thought Hamas would counter the secular Fatah and PLO, whilst installing a Pro-Israeli government. This was false; religious differences between the two sides cannot be compromised. [1]

Let me remind all sides that Israeli officials submitted many reports on this rising Islamist threat to Israeli authorities; yet the Israeli Government ceased to arrest him, thinking of him as only a tool to be used against the secular PLO. In fact, the Israelis did not arrest him until it was clear the Hamas was going to be Anti-Israeli; this was done after the first Intifida. However, the Israelis had enough precedent to arrest him after his arms cache (for usage against the PLO) was seized.

The opponent has also stated that the PLO is not secular, contrary to claims; why? Because it is becoming more violent and "extreme" Firstly, one needs to understand that secular does not mean less violent, extreme, or even moderate. Ba'athism cannot be said to be moderate, yet it is secular; same goes for fascism and communism. Secondly, the PLO is indeed becoming less violent and extreme; in fact, the PLO has recognized Israel and UN Resolutions 242, which states that Israel must be recognized as an independent state. [2]

The opponent concerns himself with the election of Hamas only; we are talking about the creation of Hamas! As history is the key to the understanding of men, we have to understand the history of each faction to make a good judgement. The opponent inquires into why this argument has been employed; let us take the following analogy for example.

I created the time travel machine for commercial usage; I use this time machine to earn money to fight against my rivals. However, my rivals obtain my time machine, and they use it to kill me; in terms of fault, if I had not invented the time machine, then I wouldn't have died! So is it partly my fault; yes. I invented the thing, and now the thing has turned on me!

Or much like Frankenstein; the monster feels the need to avenge its creator for his creation, which has led to misfortune and destruction. If the creator hadn't created Frankenstein, then he would not have to suffer as much as he is doing when Frankenstein is around; he made the object that was going to make him suffer. Henceforth, if the opponent affirms the resolution, then he would still be forced to accept that Israel created Hamas, and henceforth Israel is slightly more responsible for the suffering of the Palestinian populace.

3R2NRC: On Weapons and Attacks

Firstly, one has to understand that Israel started this "Operation Protective Edge" in order to curb the Fatah-Hamas threat, which united and formed the Palestinian Government. NOTE HERE that the first attack was done via an Israeli plane bombing the innocent civilians of Gaza, killing 7 people. Now firstly, Israel struck the first blow; it bombed Gaza. They have no defense system whatsoever; Israel acknowledges this, and takes this opportunity to launch blow after blow of attacks on Gaza, from the air, sea and land. This is proven via the fact that:

1. Gaza is being deliberately destroyed by Israeli attacks; Gaza has lost 2,000 inhabitants while Israel has lost 3! Is this not a clear sign that Israel, who attacked Gaza first, was the aggressor in these situations? And is it not a clearer sign that Israel is just mad at the current placement of power, which provides Palestine more unity than ever. As Irish Parliament Member David Norris stated, "can you imagine letting your enemy choose your government for you? I certainly cannot!"

2. Hamas, albeit being able to launch Qassam Rockets (and occasional long range M302 missiles), has killed only 3 Israelis in the proccess of doing so; this is because Iron Dome. Israel has deliberately attacked Gaza, knowing that they could not retaliate in any form!

Now this is sad, as Israel was the aggressor; at this point, also note that Israel has attacked a UN Hospital for displaced people 7 times. [3] This has accounted for 47 deaths and 2,000 injured, whilst these areas were created by the United Nations as a temporary shelter for the displaced! Israel has violated every laws of war that was ever agreed! Accordingly to the Geneva Convention, in which Israel signed in two occasions, it states that:

Upon the outbreak and during the course of hostilities, the Parties concerned may conclude agreements on mutual recognition of the zones and localities they have created. They may for this purpose implement the provisions of the Draft Agreement annexed to the present Convention, with such amendments as they may consider necessary.


This right has been violated many times! The UN schools which were distinguished for displaced citizens has been followed by an attack on a disabled people's home. [3] Israel themselves are bringing bombs after bombs on Gaza, yet it is simply shrugging the enemy's rockets. Is this moral? As the aggressor, this is in no way moral.


3R3NRC: On Suicide Bombing and Human Shields/HR Violations

The latter will be recognized first; Israel has indeed launched a ground operation in Gaza, where heavy fighting persists (albeit a ceasefire has been negotiated). If anyone is violating any human rights, it is Israel; the fact that they have disregarded the rights of the Palestinians says it all. Article 16 of the Geneva Convention states:

As far as military considerations allow, each Party to the conflict shall facilitate the steps taken to search for the killed and wounded, to assist the shipwrecked and other persons exposed to grave danger, and to protect them against pillage and ill-treatment. [5]

Israel has indeed violated this. Accordingly to the HR inspector:

"These are just a few examples [boming hospitals] where there seems to be a strong possibility that international humanitarian law has been violated, in a manner that could amount to war crimes.”

Israel is doing everything they can to make the Palestinians suffer; "we will turn Gaza into the middle ages" "we will Holocaust the Palestinians" are only some of the statements stated by the Israeli Foreign Minister in defiance to the true intention of Israel. "They suffer [Palestine] so our children could have a good summer [Israel]" was the response that the Israeli Foreign Minister threw after a beach gunboat attack that killed 3 and wounded 15. The opponent here has stopped short of justifying the violation of human rights; it would be nice for him to go on with such claims. [5][6]

Henceforth, why would it not be wrong to call these attacks as martyrdom? Note that these acts are done on consent. I am not here to justify these attacks, but these attacks have been beyond the point of justifiable; they are almost neccesary. Freedom to Palestine comes at a cost; it seems that Hamas is willing to take this step to implement this. Apart from this, albeit Hamas's storing weapons in hospitals and Mosque cannot be directly interpreted as war crimes, Israel's actions can. An example of this is when a town in Southern Gaza was captured; 100+ Palestinians were taken, and used as "human shields" for the Israelis, accordingly to testimonies.

Note at this point that the opponent has the BoP.

THE RESOLUTION IS NEGATED.

Citations:

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org...


[2] http://en.wikipedia.org...

[3] http://www.independent.co.uk...

[4] http://www.independent.co.uk...
[6] (Vid One)


[5] (Vid Two)


Debate Round No. 3
LaL36

Pro

Thank you for your response.

I would like to reiterate the mutual agreement my opponent and I had. We agreed that this debate focuses mainly on the last few months. And of course I said, if NECESSARY and RELEVANT, it is permitted to bring up an occurrence before.

On the Arrest of Yassin

With that being said I have no idea why opponent is telling the voters that they must "observe that the opponent's contention is based upon the post-Intifida period, whilst mines are based on the pre-Intifida period". I could be misinterpreting this (which is no fault of mine because you did not explain your point), but seems my opponent is suggesting mine are more flawed and irrelevant for some reason. I actually believe it is I that should be telling the voters that they should observe that your arguments were from a different period than most of mine. Again, we agreed the focus of the debate is regarding the last few months yet your only argument for currently is that Palestinians were killed by airstrikes in response to Hamas attacks. You also gave a history of the weapons Hamas GENERALLY uses prior to the last few months.

"one must understand was that Israel had intelligence and witnessed Sheikh Ahme Yassin's coming to power and creating the Hamas face-to-face!"

Con you have failed to develop this argument the entire debate. 1. You simply did not prove Israel created Hamas. You suggested that Israel could have PREVENTED the creation of Hamas. This is very misleading. Not preventing something is not the same as creating. 2. You have not even clarified what you are arguing. Even if what you said is true (which it is most certainly not), nobody knows your argument. In a debate you cannot just say one thing and expect me and the readers to fit it in. If you say "Israel created Hamas" you have to tie it into the debate. You can make an argument out of that but you have failed to do so in the rounds where you are permitted to make new arguments.

"1979, America supported the Islamist Radicals who wanted to overthrow the King of Iran; they thought that by overthrowing this secular regime, the Islamist Radicals might install a pro-US government. However, precisely the opposite happened; the Reagan Administration made the same mistake in regards to Afghanistan, which spawned Al-Qaida and Taliban. Israel did the same thing; they thought Hamas would counter the secular Fatah and PLO, whilst installing a Pro-Israeli government. This was false; religious differences between the two sides cannot be compromised."

Con makes this claim and his source is every country's reaction to the current conflict in Israel. This source is completely irrelevant and everything you have said is an unsourced argument.

Besides the validity of con's argument here, there is another issue with it. They are simply false comparisons. First of all America directly overthrew the government in Iran in order to place the Shah and PUT HIM IN POWER TO RULE OVER THEIR PEOPLE. Israel did no such thing! This is a HUGE difference!

Again, keep in mind this is a debate between who is more responsible for the current suffering of Palestinians. Even if Israel did create Hamas (which again they did not), they did not put Hamas responsible for all the Palestinians! So it is actually irrelevant even if Israel did create Hamas. Hamas is responsible for the Palestinians in Gaza and like I said they instigated this war by launching rockets knowing that Israel will respond and they are the ones who endangered the Palestinians.

"Let me remind all sides that Israeli officials submitted many reports on this rising Islamist threat to Israeli authorities; yet the Israeli Government ceased to arrest him, thinking of him as only a tool to be used against the secular PLO. In fact, the Israelis did not arrest him until it was clear the Hamas was going to be Anti-Israeli; this was done after the first Intifida. However, the Israelis had enough precedent to arrest him after his arms cache (for usage against the PLO) was seized".

Ya? So "many reports" that there is no source? My opponent here is claiming Israel arrested Yassin once they found out he was anti-Israel. I have proven (with a source) that is just false! Israel arrested Yassin once they found out that attacks on their civilians were conducted on his account.

"The opponent has also stated that the PLO is not secular, contrary to claims; why? Because it is becoming more violent and "extreme" Firstly, one needs to understand that secular does not mean less violent, extreme, or even moderate. Ba'athism cannot be said to be moderate, yet it is secular; same goes for fascism and communism. Secondly, the PLO is indeed becoming less violent and extreme; in fact, the PLO has recognized Israel and UN Resolutions 242, which states that Israel must be recognized as an independent state".

Based on your arguments in round 2, it seems that you were saying that the PLO was a democratic and just and a good organization that Israel was at fault for trying to dismantle. I guess you are right about it being secular but I really don't get your point saying they are secular. Why does it matter if Israel was trying to dismantle a secular organization? The point is, they were conducting attacks against Israeli civilians. Secondly, it is irrelevant what the PLO acknowledged in the 90's. I was clearly referring to before that con.

"The opponent concerns himself with the election of Hamas only; we are talking about the creation of Hamas!"

Con this is a mistake you made throughout this debate. No we are not! You have been doing that but it is wrong and irrelevant. All that matters is who put Hamas RESPONSIBLE FOR THE PALESTINIANS. And that clearly is not Israel so your main argument is not even relevant to the debate. And an important note: With this argument Con is giving he forfeits that Hamas is in fact at fault for the suffering of Palestinians he is just saying that Israel created Hamas (which again is false).








Your analogy:

Your analogy is flawed for various reasons. 1. As I have proven Israel did not create Hamas you just suggest that Israel could have prevented the creation. So this is not the case. 2. Even if your analogy is spot on to what is going on, many (including me), would argue it is more at fault of the one who stole the time machine and is actually doing the crime. Take for example John Kerry who helped issue the cease fire when Hamas killed three Israeli soldiers. Is Kerry partially at fault? Probably. But, he should not be condemned and the blame should not be put at him more than it should be on the terrorists that actually did the crime! Your own analogy even says that it is "PARTLY" the creators fault.

Weapons and attacks

Con the first attack was done by terrorist group (maybe Hamas) that killed the three Israeli teens and then after Hamas launched a barrage of rockets into Israel. Israel agreed not to do a larger military maneuver if the rockets seized so whose fault is it really that these airstrikes happened? www.foxnews.com/world/2014/07/01/israeli-teens-found-dead/

1. Again it seems you are not aware or knowledgeable of the current situation. You still claim that only 3 Israelis were killed and I proved last round with a source that this is false! Over 67 Israelis have died including three civilians. newslines.org/israel/1867-palestinian-67-israeli-deaths-in-29-days/

As I proved above Israel did not start the attacks so both points you made in number 1 is false.

2. Israel is not just going to sit there while rockets are launched over their country. They go after the terrorists responsible. Again Israel is only doing this because Hamas launched rockets so it is Hamas's fault. They know what is going to happen to their people and yet they still do it. I said this since round two and you never addressed it.

You have additionally repeated what you said in the previous round that Israel attacked ROCKETS that were in a UN school and you say it is sad. What is MORE SAD is that Hamas kept their rockets in such a place and that is what endangers their people. Again I said this since round 2 you still did not address it.

Israel under international law is allowed to defend itself. With every rockets Hamas launches at civilians they have no justification and they break international law. Again I refer to my original argument that is still unaddressed. Hamas caused these attacks by launching rockets for no purpose and endangered their people.

Con continues to justify preaching death, suicide bombings, using themselves as human shields to protect weapons, and says they are not official war crimes. Con has also said it is "neccessary" and Hamas is "Willing to take this step". As proven, these actions do not contribute to freedom but rather they cause more and more attacks. There is no justification in children blowing themselves up to kill civilians or protect weapons with children. Instead of condemning them you justify them and condemn the people trying to take them down.

Summary

- Con has forfeited the Hamas has in fact contributed significantly to the suffering of Palestinians but gives the false defense that Israel created Hamas.
- Con Has not addressed my argument for Hamas causing these deaths by launching rockets and at this point has accepted it.
- Con responded to my arguments for Hamas telling their people to kill themselves and use themselves as human shields as "neccessary for the freedom of Palestine"
- Con has not responded to my argument that Hamas as a leadership is responsible for their people and their safety and at this point has accepted it.

With this conclusive evidence it is clear that Hamas has contributed more to the sufferring of Palestinians.

I thank my opponent for debating and the voters for reading.
Kc1999

Con

4R1NRC: On Yassim, and the Creation of Hamas

Can we ignore history, and focus about the present only? That would be like the study of Vietnam excluding the Vietnam War, or that of Russia excluding the Soviet Union. Whilst the opponent may claim that I am talking about a different time period, one cannot talk about North Korea in its current status quo without talking about the Korean War.


Nevertheless, the opponent is says that I have simply suggested that Israel indeed could have prevented the creation of Hamas. Perhaps he needs more proofs (and more reports) An excerpt from a daily newspaper, Koteret Rashit, seems to prove that Israel has donated to Yassim's Islamic Charity:

"The Islamic associations (Yassim's Charity) had been supported and encouraged by the Israeli military authority...They [the Islamic associations] were authorized to receive money payments from abroad" [1]

Another commentator, Robert Dreyfuss stated that:

"Beginning in 1967 through the late 1980s, Israel helped the Muslim Brotherhood establish itself in the occupied territories. It assisted Ahmed Yassin, the leader of the Brotherhood, in creating Hamas, betting that its Islamist character would weaken the PLO" [2]

Andrew Higgins, a journalist, also recorded in an interview with an Israeli Official that:

"Israel's military-led administration in Gaza looked favorably on the paraplegic cleric, who set up a wide network of schools, clinics, a library and kindergartens. Sheikh Yassin formed the Islamist group Mujama al-Islamiya, which was officially recognized by Israel as a charity and then, in 1979, as an association. Israel also endorsed the establishment of the Islamic University of Gaza, which it now regards as a hotbed of militancy." [3]

There is no more doubt that Israel, at least partly, was responsible for the creation of Hamas. Apart from this, the opponent is strawman-ing entire chunks of my arguments; I used the Iranian Revolution in 1979 to compare it with what Israel did to Hamas. Albeit the opponent raises valid objections to my analogy, the opponent still misunderstands that we are talking about the creation and the spawning of each organization. In this, we see more similarities; the Shah of Iran was secular. Since 1924, secularism has been a state policy for many years, and went on until the overthrow of the Shah. Nevertheless, if the United States did not develop sectarian sentiments (via sending CIA agents into the country), perhaps Iran might have been a democracy by now.

This is the same situation with Israel. The PLO was a social democratic secular organization; albeit extreme, it was not as extreme as Hamas, and would have (at least) negotiated with Israel for a one-state resolution in the area.

On the Question: Why does it matter if Israel was trying to dismantle a secular organization?

This is seemingly abnormal question to ask; Israel does not want peace. It would seem much more sense, would it not, to talk with non-extremists than extremists? Albeit the PLO can be considered extremist freedom fighters, Israel would have fared better negotiating with them than the Hamas.

The opponent has also stated that since Israel has done nothing to help Hamas’ election in 2006, Israel did not create Hamas; firstly this is an illogical statement. Secondly, it is clear that Israel wanted the PLO back; they pressured America and Palestine to quickly organize an election, seeing that this would restore Fatah’s power. However, when Hamas took the poll, they had to start killing and wiping Hamas.

This argument is based upon the postulate that Israel was partly responsible for the creation of Hamas, so (again) if the opponent affirms the resolution, he still has to face this dilemma.

4R2NRC: Weapons and Attack

Since the opponent has focused on only the “current suffering” we shall indeed talk about the current suffering. Let us first remind ourselves of the first aggressor; the Israeli Authority. Firstly, after reports of the kidnapped teenagers reached the Hamas President of Palestine, Mahmoud Abbas, he agreed to cooperate with the Israelis, condemning the attack and kidnappings. [4] Albeit Mahmoud is part of the Fatah; Hamas also denied any involvement in the attacks [5]. In the face of the lack of evidence, retaliations were committed by the Israeli Authority; after launching a massive crack (Operation Brother’s Keep) against Hamas, whilst still having no evidence that Hamas killed the three teens, Hamas was quick to respond. This was when Hamas started launching attacks, mortar and Qassam rockets, upon the enemy.

The opponent has a problem with me justifying each attacks and acts of martyrdom; however, is it not clear that when a country is at the feet of Imperialism, they have to do everything to protect their freedom and dignity?

Quoting Francis Fannon:

“For a colonized people the most essential value, because the most concrete, is first and foremost the land: the land which will bring them bread and, above all, dignity.”

Palestine is at the feet of Israel; Hamas is not doing the suffering. The Palestinian people elected them, and they are only protecting the dignity of their own people! It is Israel who is inflicting all the suffering on the Palestinians. As accordingly to the above paragraph, Israel first attacked Hamas due to accusations that they committed the murder of three Israeli teens; Hamas responded via launching attacks, and now Israel is launching sorties of sorties of attacks against Palestine. Whilst the opponent says that “70 people” have died, I object. The opponent seems to accept my figure of 2,000 people; let me remind all sides that in these 2,000 people who have perished, only 200 of them are from an armed group (not necessarily Hamas). [6] Israel is deliberately attacking citizens, not Hamas fighters. With this being said, one must now see that Israel has taken barely any notice of attacking any places; if the opponent has problems with me justifying suicide attacks, then I have a problem with him justifying the bombings of UN refugee camps.

Firstly, there is no possible way that Hamas could have stored weapons in a UN refugee camp. These camps were set up for only days before being bombed by the Israelis; secondly, even if they did, then they would have to have acted accordingly to the Geneva Convention. The opponent seemingly drops my case when he says that “these hospitals provide Hamas with a rocket storage” Does the opponent not see that the Geneva Convention bars all nations, including Israel, to bomb these buildings? The violation of human rights is never justified; the violation of treaties in the name of imperialism is also never justified. HENCEFORTH, the opponent can try to justify Israel’s actions, but he can never do so.

The opponent also states that under international law, Israel is allowed to defend itself; this I do not refute. But under international law, is Israel allowed to shell a weaker nation on the basis of racial and religious hatred? This is the real reason behind Israel’s arrogant actions, apparently. It was ISRAEL who started this war (Operation Brother’s Keep). It was ISRAEL who launched seven attacks on UN refugee camps. It was ISRAEL who randomly ordered sorties of planes to carpet bomb the Palestinians.

Now I am not an antisemite, albeit I might appear to be. But Israel’s actions are simply disgusting; they have superior weaponry, more troops, and more international support, yet they created an organization to combat reconciliation, and they have repeatedly launched attacks on this organization they created.

Israel does not want peace; Israel wants war. Israel does not want reconciliation; Israel wants total destruction. Israel does not want life for Palestinians; Israel wants genocide for them.

In Conclusion:

P1. Israel created Hamas in a bid to stop the PLO; if Hamas were still responsible for the many deaths in Palestine, then Israel would have to be more responsible as it did aid Sheikh Yassim in the creation of Hamas

This is proven by the fact that Israeli authorities encouraged Yassim’s charity to expand and also due to the fact that Israel did not force Yassim’s charity to close down after finding a cache of weapons

P2. Israel Incited Operation Protective Edge, and has violated Geneva

This is proven by the fact that Israel started shelling Gaza, even when an abundant amount of evidence shows that Hamas took no part in the kidnapping of the three Israeli teenagers. They have violated the Geneva Convention and this has incurred suffering to the Palestinians when they initially did not deserve it.

P3. Israel had superior armaments, and it was more than willing to use this against the Palestinians.

This is proven via the F-16 strikes against Gaza, which was unjustified and killed 2,000 people, in which only 1/10th of those are members of an armed group.

Voting Issues:

-The opponent strawmans my entire argument; the account of the creation of Hamas was perceived by the opponent, apparently, as an argument for why Hamas is in power now and how Israel helped that, when it is clear that these arguments were meant to have shown that Israel created Hamas in order to avoid peace

-The opponent justifies Israel's attacks, and condemns Hamas'. However, isn't it clear that Israel attacked the Palestinians; if we are talking about the suffering of the Palestinians, then Hamas too no part in it. One does not cause one's electorate to suffer.

The Resolution is henceforth negated

Citations:
[1] http://globalresearch.ca...
[2] http://henrymakow.com...
[3]http://www.washingtonpost.com...
[4] http://www.timesofisrael.com...
[5] http://www.haaretz.com...#!

Debate Round No. 4
1 comment has been posted on this debate.
Posted by ruthpumarejo 2 years ago
ruthpumarejo
EXCELLENT DEBATE, I was pro all along, pro palestanian, pro muslim (im muslim myself) pro pro pro! Gaza won anyhow, wars over :p :D
Definitely a good read:)
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by 9spaceking 2 years ago
9spaceking
LaL36Kc1999Tied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: IMO con did a good job at rebutting most of pro's arguments, just looking over most of the debate. Deep analytic voters can tell me if my instincts are wrong.