Harry Potter is a superior book series to Twilight.
Debate Rounds (5)
The Harry Potter book series with consist of the original seven books:
Harry Potter and the Philosopher's (Sorcerer's) Stone
Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets
Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban
Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire
Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix
Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince
Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows
The Twilight Saga will consist of the original four novels:
Structure of the debate:
Round One: Pro presents case. Con accepts.
Round Two: Pro refutes. Con presents case, refutes and defends.
Round Three: Pro refutes and defends. Con refutes and defends.
Round Four: Pro refutes and defends. Con refutes and defends.
Round Five: Pro defends. Con defends. Voters are presented. No new arguments in this round.
Focusing on the two leading ladies both series, Hermione Granger shows how independence, knowledge, and a genuinely pure heart can bring happiness and strength even through difficult times. She often is sought after by her friends for her advanced knowledge of wizardry. She is careful and always manages to eye a situation, examine it, and warn her friends about how things could turn and not end up in their favor. She is known to be the smartest witch of her age, but never brags about it. She isn't particularly beautiful with her frizzy hair and bucked teeth, but she doesn't have self-esteem problems that would lead her to second guess herself or depend on others. In the 6th installment, her love interest (and close friend) Ron Weasley gets together with another girl. This is the second time in the entire series that Hermione cries, but it doesn't stop her world. She continuous studying and working even harder to show him what he is missing. In the 7th book, while the trio is out hunting for horcruxes (objects that contain fragments of Voldemort's soul- he's the bad guy), Ron gets tired of the search and plans to return home. After an argument that leaves Hermione distraught, Harry comforts her (she actually has friends) and they continue their search. Hermione can pull herself out of the depression, which she could easily sink into, knowing her friend and the search is more important.
Bella Swan, the main character from Twilight, can be seen as almost a polar opposite of Hermione Granger. She has moved to a new town to live with her helpless father and makes friends (I use this term loosely because she often dodges the plans they make and never calls them back) with poorly depicted high school teenagers. She instantly falls for the gorgeous Edward Cullen. She frequently is dependent on her male counter parts. Many times through the first book, Edward is saving her from her own klutziness. She falls, passes out, and almost gets hit by a van. In every case, Edward is there to literally catch her or even use his vampire abilities to damage the side of the van, making a cove so that Bella Swan is safe. He risks exposing himself to the word to save her, even though she is a complete stranger. The same resounding theme of helplessness can be seen in the beginning of New Moon. When Edward leaves Bella for Italy, she ventures further into the woods, gets lost, and curls into a ball on the forest floor, crying for hours on end until she eventually passes out. Even months later, she has nightmares of the incident. Her father often worries about her and her lack of nutrition. She even gets to the point of wanting to throw her-self off of a cliff because she fantasizes seeing Edward. A break up leaves her damaged beyond repair.
Bella Swan has no significant attributes. She is plain, skinny, pale and quite awkward. She depends on men to make her decisions. She is often found in the kitchen making food for her father (taking her traditional role in the kitchen, no doubt) and her entire existence is surrounded around two men. She falls in love with Edward and runs back to Jacob as a rebound whenever she doesn't feel wanted.
Hermione is strong, independent, and wise. Progressively through the series, you can see Hermione grow. She defends herself, is not afraid to stand up for what she believes in, and even at one point punches a ruthless boy named Draco Malfoy. She creates a club vouching for the equal treatment of house elves after seeing the elves that make the food at Hogwarts (the Wizarding School she attends). She advocates equality whether it be race, species, or gender.
Overall, Rowling creates her (good) characters so that they realistically demonstrate fathomable qualities in hopes that the readers will aspire to be more like them. While Granger has flaws, Rowling makes it a point in the series to show the audience that everyone has good and bad in them. Meyer's characters are rather flat and stereotypical. Bella is needy, unable to function without a man, whiny, and often avoids her 'friends' to mope over Edward.
In the case of Hermione Granger, of the Harry Potter Series Vs Bella Swan of Twilight series, I see it to be unfair fight. My point being that for the Twilight books, Bella is meant to be a portrayal of how teen girls of today act when they feel they are in love. Bella's reactions to her feelings of Edward leaving her for the "greater good" are based in the sad truth of what girls today do. The reactions and reasons for Bella's way of thinking and actions have been met with honesty, from thousands of teen girls.
Hermione on the other hand is "strong" or stubborn to a fault. Her stubbornness only leading her to trouble. In the first book of the series, Hermione does want to make an example of her superior knowledge by finding the troll that has entered the school, this leads her to need Harry and Ron to save her. Hermione's fundamental intelligence, isn't meant to be realistic to the views of the age group the book is presented to.
You make the basic point between to the two books, that there is a generalized sexism. Allow me to point several things out. Let's begin with looks. Hermione is seen to be, unattractive in her description, with frizzy hair and buck teeth. Bella is seen to be simply plain. I see there being something wrong with this. While Bella may not be spoken as intelligent, and her grades never come into question, why is then, there is a point made that Hermione is highly intelligent. My point here is that JK Rowling, obviously points at the unattractive girls need to be smart to make them any kind of appealing, whereas Stephanie Meyer, projects that plain girls, can be perfectly beautiful.
Moving on to my next point toward the sexism, point blank, yes, Bella is seen in the kitchen making food for her father, is there anything wrong with that? No there is not. This shows she is nurturing and caring of her father who is less inclined to care for himself. Hermione seems quite selfish and content with not being very nurturing of her two best friends and is often very uninvolved in their feelings.
And once more allow me to move forward, in Twilight, Edward is the 'Hero' of the book, it is his job to save Bella. He is the Superman to her Louis Lane. In Harry Potter, there is no real direct person to save Hermione should she be in trouble, in fact, she is seen as "Heroine" in the novels.
Overall I feel to compare the two females, while enticing as it may be, is an unfair fight, strictly based on their gender, and not for their significant roles in each of the series.
As far as how the character's are portrayed, I feel Rowling's representation on realism, is incorrect. Her character's find themselves in predicaments not poignant to those found in Twilight. But to play nice, I would like to use the fact that the age group targeted for Rowling's books, are much younger and more impressionable, the need to represent character's into a "fathomable qualitied people" is truly unrealistic. Her character's show almost a super human level of intelligence and maturity for their respective situations that no real child could live up to. Meyer on the other hand has a firm basis for portraying her characters in each of their respective roles, for a modern day approach at how the age group targeted has and can be in real life.
In fact, you claim Edward as the ‘hero' in twilight which furthers my point that the main character in Twilight just plays a damsel in distress throughout the entire four books. Edward is the perfect boyfriend, the ‘chosen' one. Jacob is the side kick who doesn't get as much attention and Bella connects the three of them. This is similar in Harry Potter. Harry is the chosen one yet he is flawed and sometimes even shows that his ego makes him a little big headed occasionally. Ron is Harry's friend who doesn't get all the spot light but is fiercely loyal anyway. And as I've said, Hermione is the female counterpart to the two who easily holds the two together, especially during their school work.
There is one stark contrast between the two. Bella is dependent on both men; Hermione is dependent on both men, but they are also dependent on her. She is able to hold her own ground. In fact, the Harry Potter trio are friends, and show that it is possible to have a friend of a different gender without being infatuated with them.
You also claim that Hermione's stubbornness has gotten her in trouble during the books, especially the first one, but you are mistaken. Hermione does not go looking for the troll, but in fact was in the girls bathroom unknowingly when the troll had entered. Harry and Ron went looking for Hermione to warn her about the troll and ended up having to save her with her guidance from beneath the sinks. When the professors arrived, Hermione took credit for everything as a way of thanking the two boys for saving her life. Hermione is one of the most level headed characters in the book, and always seems to know how far to take a situation and in what direction. But she isn't perfect. We learn in the first book that she's a terrible flyer and she stays up nights on end to study to get the grades she does. Knowledge isn't her key, but a willingness to get done what is needed. In fact, you claim that Hermione isn't a realistic depiction of a young girl but, J.K. Rowling actually inspired Hermione directly on her younger self.
You have assumed that I meant that because Hermione was smart, Rowling didn't make her the prettiest girl. This assumption is wrong. We find out that Hermione is actually extremely beautiful in the fourth installment during the Yule Ball. The reader later finds out though it took her at least two hours to tame her hair. Meaning, if Hermione put in the effort, she could be as attractive as she wanted to be. I pointed out the Bella was nothing particularly special to show how unappealing Bella Swan is. She is just a normal girl, so what is it about her exactly that stands out enough for both men. It must be the way she trips and falls on her face that appeals to them.
You also claim that Hermione never cares for her friends but there are countless times when she is covering for them. Between helping Harry and Ron with their papers and homework to helping figuring out the different mysteries, she was always there for them. She was the one that cracked the mystery of the chamber of secrets. She found out it was a basilisk; she figured out it was using the pipes to travel through the castle. She also helped Harry during the tri-wizard tournament as well. And while they were risking their lives, running from snatchers and Voldemort, she never left him.
Meyer's interpretation of teenagers make them seem like pathetic individuals who have no sense of self and are unable to care for themselves. Rowling on the other hand shows the faults and strengths of each character throughout every single event in the books. No character in the book is wholly good or wholly bad (with the exception of Voldemort and he wasn't always that way). In Twilight, there are just good guys and bad guys, but Harry Potter shows us that good and evil lives in all of us. As Sirius Black says, "We've all got both light and dark inside us. What matters is the part we choose to act on. That's who we really are."
I would also like to argue that Twilight definitely has a slimmer ranger of audience. You claimed that the "age group targeted for Rowling's books, are much younger and more impressionable". This is flat out false. While it may be a children's book originally, the books deal with adult themes such as discrimination, loyalty and friendship, and genocide. The books also become very mature and dark as they progress which would appeal to an older audience. Twilight is a romance novel specifically targeted for teenage girls. Harry Potter can appeal to men and women, boys and girls. It is a family book. Twilight is a young adult girls book.
I disagree, Hermione doesn't seem to have any other friends other than Harry and Ron, and in some way they manage to coddle her throughout the series.
Yes, I claim Edward as the "Hero" of the Saga. Meyer does not however portray him as perfect. He is flawed. Edward holds both a dark and light side, such as the one you claim the Harry Potter crew hold within. Edward has to constantly keep himself in check to not drain Bella of her blood. As far Jacob, yes, he is seen as a potential love interest to Bella, but she finds him to be too young and far more enjoys his company. In the final books, Jacob actually becomes a fierce ally to both Edward and Bella.
I will attest to the fact that I was wrong, perhaps Hermione didn't go after the troll herself. But I still view her based as an unrealistic depiction. J.K. Rowling can have claimed to have based her off a younger version of herself, but there still remains the feeling of over dramatization. Hermione though is not level headed and takes criticisms far too seriously through the series.
You take a low blow, Bella's tripping over herself is realistic. My younger sister falls all over herself when she has a crush. It has something to do with the hormones I am certain. No, Bella is nothing special and doesn't pretend to be. That is what makes her appealing to both men. Her unwillingness to be the object of desire. The tables may have turned if Bella had suddenly decided to take two hours to doll herself up. Hermione though often shows a desire to be something special, and has to put forth an effort to make herself look on a level that the other males may recognize.
So you are basically telling me that Hermione is an enabler. Well thats not a good role model. Why should someone be pointing out to children that its ok to lie and cover for your friends. And if she is helping them with their work, doesn't that imply cheating? And if she is doing all of their work and covering for them oftem and solving their problems for them, doesn't that mean she has some enhanced, possibly, an ability that once more no real child could live up to such a standard?
Meyer's interpretation of modern teenagers falls pretty accurately. There are numbers to show for it. Statistics show that teen girls suffer from depression after a change in a social circle or the loss of a boyfriend, trauma is also a high risk factor( I think hanging around a vampire whos family at one point or another wants to bite you, counts as trauma). Depression can spur especially in the winter months, hmm, Bella was depressed for the winter, I think things are making sense. Teens with untreated depression are likely to leave or ignore social calls, have trouble focusing on anything other than what is causing the depression and lastly are likely to seek risky behaviors. Surely, there is realism and research going into Meyer's books. Bella is exactly what she is said to be, a typical teen aged girl.
Twilight is not in fact a young girls adult book. The books fan base spreads very diversly, such as you claim the Potter books to do. Demographics include and are not limited to; Married women, Married men, Teens (of either sex, but predominately female), younger children, people of every creed, religion and orientation. The books do support a wide fan base.
Citations for my arguments can be found at:http://www.teendepression.org... :: http://www.examiner.com...
1. pertaining to, involving, or suggesting suicide.
2. tending or leading to suicide.
3. foolishly or rashly dangerous.
The third definition would probably be the most relatable, yet they all describe her actions. I urge you to read this article (though it is about the movie it represents the same theme and telltale signs) and tell me that Bella Swan was not a suicidal teenager. Sure, cliff diving was safe. But when beneath the water, she fought the urge to resurface to stay with Edward. Her intent originally was not to kill herself, but her intent became suicidal when she fought her bodily need of oxygen to stay within the waters grasp. If it hadn't been for Jacob being in the right place at the right time, she would have drowned. May I add, this is yet another time she is dependent on a man. She can't make the right and conscious decision to rise to the surface and take a gasp of air, but needs a man to make that decision for her by pulling her to safety.
She again, does need Jacob. Is she didn't need him, she would have died. In fact her entire fascination with Edward was helped along by Jacob unknowingly. She depended on Jacob to fix the motorcycles. She depended on him to teach her how to ride them. Every step of the way she was using Jacob; taking advantage of his feeling and using them for granted. She was whole heartedly and fully dependent on Jacob during New Moon. She slowly rotted away without Edward.
Your accusation is wrong about Ms. Granger. She does have friends and she does spend time with them, for instance the Patil twins and others, but her best friends are Ron and Harry and naturally she is going to spend the most time with them.
As for Edward, I will restate my claim before. He is portrayed as the perfect boyfriend. Bella even calls him "perfect", "beautiful" and a "Greek god". While he may struggle with his blood lust, Edward never once gives in to the urge. Not even slightly. This just makes his perfect image even more perfect. He may have this internal conflict going on, but is never more than anything internal. The characters in Harry Potter actually do slip up on occasion. They're only human. And the fact that Edward remains so chaste during the series is very unlikely of any teenage boy today. Edward Cullen is the ultimate boyfriend; he's perfect. The problem with perfection is that it isn't real and this over exaggerated image that Meyer paints can and probably has altered teenage girl's perception of love and the ideal man.
In fact, another flaw that Meyer gives her heroine in the story is her lack of personality. Bella Swan is a blank slate that any teenage girl can project herself on to make the reading seem as if they are the main character. And eventually, Ms. Swan decides to change herself completely for this man. She leaves everything that she's ever known true behind and ultimately ends up committing suicide. After a very unhealthy pregnancy, Bella's stomach is torn to shreds by the demonic spawn that Edward and she have created. Only then, does Edward try to put her through the transition to becoming a vampire even though Bella had begged him in the several months prior.
Ultimately their child becomes the biggest Mary Sue (character who is seemingly perfect in every way and has no flaws) ever known to literature. And have I yet mentioned that Edward is 107 years old and Bella is 17? That's highly illegal in many states. And even when she turns 18, that's just plain disgusting. Who wants to have sexual intercourse with a man who is nearly a hundred years older than you?
-deals with adult rated themes that are intertwined appropriately with interesting storylines
4.Loss and death
-the characters are multidimensional with flaws and strengths
-love and friendship are abundant throughout the works
-capitalizes on intelligence and how important an education is
-appeals to all audiences
-funny and clever characters and plot lines
-singular theme of unrealistic teenage love
1. flat characters with unappealing personalities
2. over emotional main character who has no personality
3. an uninterested father who could careless about his daughter
4. a mother who is distant both physically, mentally and emotionally
5. a poor teenage boy overcome with puppy love (pun intended)
-perfect boyfriend who has unlikely traits of 107 year old man
-puppy love is the only real love in the book series
-Bella often skips class with Edward and brushes school off
-slim audience of teenage girls
-repetitive storylines in which Edward is always rescuing Bella
I suppose some may view her thrill seeking as a suicidal tendency, but at no point does she in fact want to die, in fact she wants to live. Its her desire to be with Edward that pushes that forward. Her want to be a vampire springs from that love.
I still see no proof in Edward being the "perfect" Boyfriend. Every girl calls their husband or significant other perfect or any of those types of things at any given time, hell, I have been referred to as a Russian God. Girls say those things, doesn't necessarily mean anything. And he does screw up, He left Bella, knowing the damage he was more than likely to cause. In the first novel, he does start to drink her blood more than enough to get the poison (or whatever you wanna call the stuff that turns you into a vampire) so much so, that Carlisle has to pull/urge him away. When they had begun to kiss, he had to fling himself off of her, so as not to have a repeat. He was like an alcoholic in recovery around her. Yes, plenty of temptation, but he fought not to give in. I don't think thats perfect, I just think thats trying.
I agree, Edward does remain very chaste through out the series for multiple reasons, just as the one you point out, he's 107 years old. People in those times had self control unlike many of the people today. And I take offense for you to think otherwise, some of the people I know have beliefs much like those of Edwards. Meyer's perception of love, is accurate to those who share a similar belief structure.
And yes, if you want to be absolutely technical, Edward is 107, Bella is only 17, and when she turns 18, anything and everything done with Edward is perfectly legal and completely up to her. There is nothing anyone can do about it. Anna Nicole who may not be the best example, was in her twenties, when she married the 80+ year old man. There really is nothing anyone can do. They are consenting adults. And just so I may, 17 is the legal age of consent, in many states, including Washington. And they never entered any "adult" acts until after their marriage.
How exactly is Renesmee, the perfect character? I am curious to hear, because I am almost certain, that she is still nothing more than a child at the end of the last book. How does that render her perfect if she can't even really do anything?
Both sets of books deal with the basic, mysticism and impossibilities that no one could live up to for the shear fact that such abilities as witch craft and great speeds, don't happen in real life. But the moral's in Twilight are that of a classic love story. Girl falls in love with boy, boy can't see girl for whatever variable of reasons, girl finds a way around said rules, and boy comes to the rescue, except in this book, it doesn't end with Death. Harry Potter on the other hand, is some story that's only real plot line is boy wanting to avenge parents death.
You also claimed that Edward is not perfect. He did in fact fling himself off of Bella's bed during a make out session they had. This was before he had ever tasted her blood though and it is never clear if he had actually pulled himself away because of sexual arousal or blood lust. It is left for the audience to assume. If you want to argue that it was blood lust, this just points out that he never seems to make a mistake. He is infallible. He did also leave, sending Bella into a neurotic depression. But once again, Edwards actions were in Bella's best interest. He in fact told her that he was leaving because he was a danger to her, especially by drawing other vampires near. Another way to prevent a slip up from her getting injured. And yet, when Renesmee is ripping through Bella's skin making a bloody mess all over the place, he is somehow able to maintain his composure.
I understand why Edward is chaste, but once again I think Meyer's is being very unrealistic. Edward Cullen is still a man, vampire or not and the fact that he is a vampire heightens his senses. Though the outlook on sex before marriage was different 107 years ago, doesn't mean that men weren't having sex before marriage because they most certainly were. And the fact that this book takes place in the 2000's should be an even bigger indicator that sex before marriage is no longer frowned upon by society. If he had adapted to the times with fashion and such, why didn't his morals change as well?
This is true that they never committed adult acts but still. It doesn't take away the creepy factor. A man pretending to be a teenager is actually 107 years old. And on top of all that, he ends up falling in love with a 17 year old girl. Mind you, he is old enough to be her great great grandfather. Now tell me you'd be willing to get with somebody that old? So his body was frozen and all the liquid was replaced with venom, okay. I'm just saying I wouldn't want to involve myself in that. And this brings me to another point, if all the bodily liquid is replaced with venom, then how exactly was he able to create sperm and bring Renesmee into the world?
Like I said, Renesmee is the biggest Mary Sue to ever exsist. By the end of the book, you are correct, she is only a child. But she proves that age doesn't mean much because by the end of the book, she communicated with her parents before being able to walk. She is born from highly unlikely circumstances. Even though he mother should have died, she didn't technically. She also cures Jacob's broken heart by causing him to imprint on her and forget any of the feelings he ever felt towards Bella. From this imprint, she is able to join the werewolves and vampires into a peace treaty and they agree to fight side by side for her protection. But when the Volturi come, she uses her gift and prevents a full on fight from breaking out. This child, yet again, saves the day. May I also add, that not one character dislikes the child either.
You claim that Harry Potter's plot line is just of revenge. But, you have completely over simplified it and in correctly did it as well. Harry Potter is a series of 7 books, with a boy coming to age in a world he never knew existed. Upon finding out Voldemort killed his parents, yes, he wants to avenge them. But never does Harry go looking for Voldemort. Instead, in every book, it is Voldemort trying to avenge his own death. Voldemort knows the prophecy says that Harry will be the only one able to kill him so he tries to kill him before he reaches his full potential. Unfortunately he fails several times and ultimately reaches his own end. You described a typical love story very well. Girl and boy fall in love, something comes between them and they can't be together but ultimately find a way to bend their fate and end up together anyway. Twilight is a typical love story. It has no interesting twists or turns. It follows the typical love story plot and does not stray away from it even a little. You can't relate Harry Potter to a mold because it's completely original and like nothing ever created before.
Overall, I believe I have given a fair argument as to why Twilight is inferior to Harry Potter. Twilight's themes are childish and not very well developed. Each book in the Harry Potter series can stand independently as an interesting piece of literature whereas Twilight heavily depends on reading the books prior. Harry Potter's characters and very dimensional and interesting. Rowling created an entire new world set within ours whereas Meyers just created an already known (to literature) species. Rowling's works appeal to all audiences, young and old. Harry Potter is a coming of age story that deals with friendship and education. Twilight just deals with what the characters consider love and a rushed marriage. And overall, the Harry Potter series has generated a large fan base with includes touring of the sets used to film the adaptations and an amusement park.
Just so you have the information available to you, many people, while watching a loved one go through surgery or have something gruesome happen, can maintain composure. Its based on your ability to tolerate such a thing, Edward obviously has a high toleration and honestly, after living for as long as he has, of course he would be able to contain himself. The plan for when she was to be born was to turn her should anything go horribly wrong. His composure was justified.
Meyer's is not being unrealistic. While he is a man, his ability to maintain his morals isn't unfathomable through out the amount of years he was alive. People today maintain similar morals, and some people who have actually gone through the aging process and are in their 80's maintain similar morals to when they were young. Its not an off idea that Meyers proposes, its actually a fairly accurate idea.
I agree with you, how if he was turned a vampire, and his blood replaced by venom is he able to produce sperm? Well, how does the fictional creature of an Incubus do such a thing? Perhaps it is just a mythological process that occurs that we may never understand. But its a book based in myth, just as Harry Potter is. I am pretty sure we will never understand the concept or use of a time turner and how exactly that is possible.
Fine, Harry Potter never purposely seeks out Lord Voldermort, but he does put all of his friends and family at risk by returning year after year to Hogwarts does he not? He could have simply stayed with his aunt and uncle as terrible as they were and been a normal human boy and avoided all of that drama. No while he didn't he continued to pursue in risky behavior. Harry runs off the school grounds constantly when being told not to. He shows a classic side of disrespect for the authority and rules set before him. Overall I believe there a mixed signals given to the audience of the Harry Potter series.
Twilight is a love story and targets a wide fan base from not only its book sales, but its movie endorsements and through sales of merchandise and other assorted fandoms. The characters do each have their own distinct personalities, though they can be somewhat hollow at points its for the support of the person reading to be able to step into the character's shoes.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by imabench 4 years ago
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Reasons for voting decision: as I already am inclined to give all 7 points to the pro and yell F*CK TWILIGHT, ill be fair on this one. Afetr reading through this long ass debate which could have ended after round 3, the Pro's best argument was about role model for females which was never fully refuted by the con, along with a few other arguments in my opinion.
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