The Instigator
sky_from_the_unwanteds
Pro (for)
Winning
4 Points
The Contender
Tough
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points

Harry Potter vs Twilight

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
sky_from_the_unwanteds
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 9/6/2015 Category: Miscellaneous
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 476 times Debate No: 79459
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (1)
Votes (1)

 

sky_from_the_unwanteds

Pro

I personally feel as if Harry Potter is a much better series than Twilight. Harry Potter taught me to be brave and courageous. Twilight taught me that I can't live without a man. Hermione was a great role model. She tells you to make the right choices, be brave, stand up for what you believe in, etc. Bella taught me to physically put myself in dangerous in situations if a man leaves me.
Tough

Con

When discussing matters such as 'which series' or 'movies' was/were better, we must realize that Pro's subjective interpretation of them and the lessons they chose to take from them are one of the most unreliable and ridiculous ways to go about it.

Here are facts about both series. Harry Potter's storyline revolved around a group of children growing up, this meant all already-grown adults could barely relate to it and limited the fanbase heavily to people of a certain age range whereas with twilight people of all ages could find something in it to relate to.

In Harry potter the 'buff' and 'tough' guys were demonized and hated on, look at Viktor in Goblet of fire or any of the slytherins, any guy who could be extremely hot and admirable in ways but who chose more of a rough way of life were demonized and exalted. In twilight both Jacob (the 'tough guy') and Edward (the 'not-so-macho guy') and both were able to have bad and redeemable qualities.

In Harry Potter only the slim or unfit characters were admired, the only relatively buff one who wasn't evil got killed off (Cedric diggory) and really the sex was just stupid (I mean Harry and Ginny do not go together at all). There was next to no love rivalry and if there was the winner just used potions to beat the other until the other won them back afterwards... That encourages drug-induced rape tbph (what even were these 'love potions' exactly? I'm guessing Chloroform or Rohypnol).

Harry Potter himself is not entirely a character worth following, he's irrational, over-confident, bad taste in women and frankly is a rude guy on top of it (to anyone other than his pedo gay friend Dumbledore).

In twilight even when they are fighting over the same woman, Jacob and Edward show respect for one another as she is important. In Harry Potter, Harry just gets friendzoned and is like, okay let me f*** your bf's sister. What kind of logic or morality is that?

The entire storyline is outrageous as well. If things are getting boring they just bring in a new creature or character to spice things up, in Twilight they use very much the same ones in new ways in actually creative storylines where you literally had no idea who would win Bella over up until the last book. While Jacob lost, he didn't just take the friendzone and go for Ed's sister did he now? He fought like a real man/werewolf to the bitter end and accepted his defeat after some grieving which is important to teach teens and children who will one day grow to be adults and also to please adult readers with as it's a good way to go about love.

In Harry no one is passionate enough to fight over a partner for long, if love doesn't work out they literally move onto a new partner by the next book and there's 7, in Twilight 4 entire books the same people were still fighting to the bitter end that's real passion and dedication. Vampires and Werewolves are also much stronger and magnificent supernatural beings than wizards, warlocks and wizards. Spells that need to be learned? Boring. A set of skill you learn very quickly being used in lightning fast intense fights? Awesome!

As for the actual way the stories go, in Twilight there's no true 'bad' or 'good' guy it's what you choose to make of each character and each has their good and bad moments, this important to teach children. Don't refuse to ever forgive someone but don't glorify them either. In Harry Potter, only bravery is glorified, being 'cunning' (which just means socially smart), 'intellectual' (ravenclaw), or 'honest' (hufflepuff) are trampled on. brave and extroverted people are not superior to others and making this apparent the entire series is very emotionally damaging to readers who are not of the gryffindor persona. Why did Gryffindor have to win house points every year? Why did Harry have to be so popular? Everything was oriented to outgoing, popular people and any introverted people with complex morality compasses or personas were all made to either die or be villains. It is totally and utterly ridiculous.

All the main characters had next to no complexity to them, all sub-mains too, only the enemies of the main characters or characters that had barely any time had genuinely complex personalities. Draco and Voldemort were by far the most interesting characters the entire series the only main 'good guy' who had any remote inner twists was Dumbledore, guess what the conflict was? He was homosexual, big f***ing whoop. He wasn't even a good guy though, he manipulated Snape to take the brunt of his own pathological lying and Snape just bent over and took it. It is a really ridiculous story where only bad or non-main characters have any complexity to them. Harry Potter was just an arrogant guy with no taste in women, Ron was an airhead with some random spur-of-the-moment flukes of ingenuity, Hermione was a sexually frustrated nerd who had a thing for airheads that had spur-of-the-moment flukes of ingenuity and the other characters were boring.

The moral of the story in Harry Potter is that fighting solves everything and winning wars is the best way to prove superiority of ideology, Twilight's moral is that anyone can win anything, it's just about timing and persistence. I know which I'd want my child growing up believing and gaining role models from.

Debate Round No. 1
sky_from_the_unwanteds

Pro

sky_from_the_unwanteds forfeited this round.
Tough

Con

Moving on...
Debate Round No. 2
sky_from_the_unwanteds

Pro

I'm sorry that I wasn't able to comment fast enough in time for the first round. I got caught up with school stuff....but anyways.

HP isn't about just little kids. They grow up throughout the story and you can see how they have changed and what decisions they make. Adults can totally relate to it. Even if they're not that age now, they were that age at one point and they can relate with the decisions made in that book. I believe that Twilight cannot be related too by all ages. As teenager, I think she's a complete idiot and that no sane person would make any of the decisions she makes. She gets pregnant at 18, I obviously can't relate to that now and hope I won't have to relate to that for a long time. I don't have a crush or care muchfor guys, so really I can't relate to anything in that book since most of it is about how Bella can't live without a man.

I strongly disagree with about how you said that only slim and unfit characters were Portrayed as the good guys. I honestly don't know where the heck you got that from and even if it was true, then Twilights not any better. Have you noticed that everyone in Twilight is slim, pale, and fit. There is noooooo variety of people. Also drug induced Rape.......seriously??? I swear no one thought of that except you and you only. And at least in HP they make the book realistic by taking a realsionshipnslowly not getting pregnant with a cannibal baby when your 18.

HARRY ISNT A CHARACTER WORTH FOLLOWING??? Seriously?? He's brave, he makes mistakes which is human, and he has courage!! Bella- bland, the least independent human in the world, not afraid to make out with a man she's meet a few weeks ago???

Harry Potter has a love story, it just doesn't go out and say it right away. The book leaves hints of it here and there. And at least Hary got Ginny pregnant YEARS after they were married with an actual baby. Mr. Sparkle Vampire for Bella pregnant in like a day with a cannibal baby. Also I'd Dumbedores gay, what is Edward? 1) He's a pedifelic hormonal 107 year old man that looks like a 17 year old. 2) He sparkles ( that one point should prove the whole gay thing for Edward)

Yup, Jacob totally fought like a real man. Are you listening to your self. 1) He forces a girl to make out with him 2) He makes out with Bells once she's engaged. 3) He falls in love with a baby......(Yeah, real manly😒) You know the reason that HP didn't dwell on the love-story part so much?? BECAUSE THEY HAD BETTER THINGS TO DO!! Like defeat Voldemort and not a 3 letter names freak who has long hair.

About how you said that HP was about fighting and that violence is the answer to everything. I think you got the moral wrong. That's not what JK Rowling was trying to say. She was trying to say that you have to be brave, have courage, and fight for what you believe in. It shows you that no ones life is a fairytale. In Twilight the ending is like a fairy tale. Bella lives a happily ever after and no one dies. That's not reality. People will go away and once again no ones life is perfect. What Bella's life is is a false reality.

Also if you want Twilight to be a role-model guide for your children, I hope you don't mind seeing your daughter on 16 and pregnant one day!

Answer this please: How are women portrayed in both books??

Ginny when Harry leaves her for her own good- Tried to steal the sword of Gryffindor, restated DA with Neville and Luna to defy Snapes reign, fought later in a battle at Hogwarts, and more.

Bella when Edward leaves her for her own good- Jumps off a cliff and has a romantic affair with a werewolf.

Twilight literally comes out and says that women cannot live without a man! WELL WE CAN!! HP shows that women can still make a difference in the world without a man. Heck we don't even need a man.
Tough

Con

I will fully concede 3 things:

1) Harry Potter is far more feminist-friendly than Twilight

2) The character Harry Potter is brave.

3) Edward is slightly pedophilic and creepy in terms of how young he goes in women since his mental maturity should make personality-bonding very difficult for such a relationship.

Here is what I will not concede and why:

1) Harry being brave and Bella being rather timid is not a reason to claim that Harry Potter is better than Twilight. Bella stood up to Jacob (broke her own hand punching him in the face). She showed extreme determination and courage in less obvious ways than the overt bravery of Neville Longbottom but she is still a very brave character. She kept extreme secrets from everyone she knew for so long, in fact Harry Potter rarely delves into how wizards keep their identity secret (if at all). The entire point is that everyone can relate to Bella in some way, all her struggles and helplessness in the love triangle are things that many of us can emotionally relate to even if we haven't been in love triangles. The entire story was about a relentless struggle, not between good or evil, not between bravery or cunning but between two arguably equal rewards (Edward and Jacob, and since Edward refused to ever grant Bella eternal life at the start you couldn't argue that she took this into account as the way she became a vampire was so unforeseeable). It's a story of a skinny guy actually out-charming a hot, more masculine one simply by opening up to a woman and being honest and in its own way so beautiful. Harry's bravery is so irrelevant, he was hardly the bravest of the characters. I would say Lupin, Neville (as well as his parents) and Ron were all far braver and more determined than Harry in the face of animosity. In actual fact I would say Tom Marvolo Riddle himself (AKA "Lord Voldemort") was perhaps the bravest of all characters despite the entire wizarding world trying time after time to not just take his life but make him suffer severely.
2) The militant feminist need to have women without men is ridiculous. Women (as a whole) would be nowhere without men. Men hunted and helped our species dominate by forming political structures to begin with, all women were good for was producing the men. Sure, over time they have admittedly excelled in many fields of work but without men altogether our species would die out after one generation and also be without guidance since even today poltiics is heavily male dominated[http://unstats.un.org...], ergo the world is since politics runs the world.

3) Bella's character is not just some timid pathetic individual with no will of her own. She is someone with deep secrets, urges of being dominated (somethign any feminist should understand is present in females who are fans of BDSM[part 1 - https://www.psychologytoday.com...[[part 2 - https://www.psychologytoday.com...][http://www.dailymail.co.uk...]) if you read my sources you will even realize that dominant men rarely enjoy submisison while dominant womena re amongst the highest group fo peopel to passionately crave it. Women enjoying submission and having strong men (albeit not 'men' if they are not human) fighting over them is not a problem at all and is a great thing for people to understand and delve into. Look how wide sold 50 shades of Grey was [https://www.lifesitenews.com...]. It's a great thing to have insight into women who may not be that dominant or be your stereotypical feminist, are you suggesting that only feminists are worth reading about? One could easily argue that while Bella was a damsel in distress, Alice was your kickass feminist who saved a man in distress and fell in love with him eternally as a result of it. Perhaps you didn't read or watch enough of Twilight to know the story of Alice and Jasper but it is one of the most beautiful feministic love stories in probably all of fiction.
Debate Round No. 3
sky_from_the_unwanteds

Pro

In reply to the things you said....

1. Just because Bella can punch a werewolf in the face doesn't mean she's brave. If a dude forced me to make out with him(for some deranged reason) I would punch him in the face too. It doesn't matter if he's a Pro Wrestler or a Werewolf. Just because I do punch a guy in the face because he forces me to make out with him, that doesn't make me brave, any girl would do that. It's instinct........and common sense.

2. The only people she has known for a really long time that she had to keep a secret from, was her mom and dad. Her "friends" that she has during high school were barely her friends at all. That's because she pushed them all away to date Edward(that BTW she's know for like.........a freakin week) Then once Edward goes away, she goes into depression for like 6 months, in the process, not talking to her friends. So........everyone has secrets. That one thing I can relate to with Bella. We both have secrets. But characters in every book have secrets.

3. I don't have a love life.......I'm 13. I don't have a crush........I'm 13. So, I really can't relate to anything in Twilight. I can relate to keeping a secret, but once again, every book character has a secret. And the secret she keeps, is dwelled on the least in the series. The series dwells more on the "plot line" and when Bella doesn't become a virgin""'"'"'""'""""'"'"""'""""'"'"""'""""'"'"""'"""" anymore. There was NO plot line in the whole freakin series!! Book One-Bella meets Edward and they kiss like 200 pages into the books. She then falls in love with him and totally ignores her friends.
Book Two- Apparently now a gallon of blood can flow from a paper cut so now her boyfriend has to leave. (I means, she's in a house full of vampires......shouldn't she have more common sense to be careful?) Then she meets Mr.Shirtless and has a romantic affair with him. Then she goes and "saves" Sparkly Dude. Book Three- is so insignificant that no one remembers what happens. Book Four- She married sparkly dude, "forgets" to use protection, and gets effed up with a cannible baby. She had the baby. The bad dude and his army meet up with the Cullen's???? In a field. Nothing happens. No one died. (WHAT KIND STORY IS THIS??? ) Oh yeah, and Mr. Shirtless falls in love with Bellas baby.(Sorry, I got off track. Back to what I was arguing about.) I would much rather have a prize of freedom and liberty, instead of two hot guys. Think about it., do any teeneagers have like the whole guy population of the school falling at their feet??? NO. But Bella does.

3. Harry has plenty of bravery!!! He has done so many things for Hogwarts and the Wizarding World. He fought for others freedom. To cure the world of Voldemorts evil wrath. Bella wanted to turn into a vampire as soon as she heard that they existed. Is it just me or does Bella need to sort out her priorities

2. Sexist much??? Are you saying that the only thing that woman are useful for is to be a baby making machine?? Excuse me??? Maybe woman would be more far off if men just BACKED.THE.EFF.OFF. We live in a mostly male dominated society and do you actually know why sweetheart??? Because women aren't offered half the opportunities that men are offered. We are degrading into thinking that we can't achieve the same thing as men. Sure men helped in the past. But women could have hunted if we were.....I don't know.....GIVEN A FREAKIN CHANCE!!! We wouldn't have died off in one generation of women were alive!!! Women are just as strong as men and we can survive by oursleves. Sure men dominate politics, but once again that's because WE WERENT GIVEN A FREAKIN CHANCE!!!! Open your eyes!!! Women are finally getting up and saying that WE CAN!!! If we were offered more opportunities, heck yeah we would be up in the high ranks too. And we are!!! Women are getting somewhere!!! And heck yeah we have excelled in more topics!!! If men died out, women can take over!!!! We just weren't given the opportunity, But I bet if we were, we would be freakin great at in. 😡😡😡😤😤😤😤

3. Bella always has to have someone to save her. She puts herself in stupid and idiotic situations without even thinking them through.

4. TMI WOMAN!!! I'm 13!!! If someone women are like that.....kudos to them. But that has absolutely nothing to do with what we're talking about. MY EYES!!! THEIR BURNING!!

5. If a bunch of middle aged women want to read a book about a how a girl interviewing a billionaire lead to her being his papered sex slave.......that's.....great for them. Just take like 10 minutes and just watch these videos for me:

https://m.youtube.com...
https://m.youtube.com...
https://m.youtube.com...
https://m.youtube.com...
https://m.youtube.com...

And Since you brought up 50 Shades of Grey-
https://m.youtube.com...

Also one of the most beautiful feminist stories of all time in not Jasper and Alice(in my opinion)-

SKY AND ALEX FROM THE UNWANTEDS
EVERLARK FROM THE HUNGER GAMES
TERESA AND THOMAS FROM THE MAZE RUNNER
FOURTRIS FROM DIVERGENT
JUNE AND DAY FROM LEGEND
CLACE FROM THE MORTAL INSTRUMENTS(TMI)
SIZZY FROM TMI
MARGO AND Q FROM PAPERTOWNS
HAZEL AND GUS FROM TFIOS
PERCEBETH FROM PERCY JACKSON
AND MUCH MORE!!!!
Tough

Con

Tough forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
sky_from_the_unwanteds

Pro

Reasons why Bella is a TERRIBLE role model!

1. She's not very nice to new people:
When Bella starts her new life in Forks, she's worried that she'll fit in. However the entire student body is nice to her, Eric and Mike offer to help her to find class's, Jessica and her friends invite her to sit with them everyone goes out of their way to make her feel accepted. How does Bella react to this? WITH DISTAIN!! She doesn't even know these people yet she labels Eric and Mike as overly helpful, and Jessica as a whiny, shallow nuisance- FOR NO REASON AT ALL!! Honestly if anyone gave me the treatment that Bella got I would be eternally grateful to them!

2. She ditches EVERYTHING for a freaking guy.
We get it-Edwards hot. He's also charming, intelligent, and totally into Bella. None of this, however, justifies Bella literally dropping everything and everyone from her life the moment he walks into it. FRIENDS ? She doesn't need them. Extra curricular activities?? Nah! She's to busy with the vampire making horrible analogies in the middle of a forest. Any other interests other than snogging a 100-year old man trapped in a 17 year olds body? NOPE

3. She thinks that life is not worth living without this so called boy:
When Edward ditched her in New Moon she literally FALLS.APART. We can understand this to some extent, we've all had our hearts broken and it does indeed suck. But months and months later Bella is STILL walking around in a zombified state, risking her life to 'hear' Edwards voice. What sort of message does that give to girls reading the book??? That life is not worth living without the guy who dumped you? YEAH COOL, GOOD ONE.

Oh. And one more thing. Bella seems vaguely surprised that she's not welcomed back with open arms of Jessica / Mikes friend group after Eddie boy effs off- despite the fact that she ignored them/ looked down on them/ treated them like totally crap while he's around. Shocker."'

4.She's SO NEGATIVE!!
If you think about it all she ever does is whine. About the weather. About Edward. About Charlie. About her age. About Jacob
liking her. About Jacob not liking her. About college. Thank God she had no friends otherwise she would probably depress the heck out of them too.

5.She's OBSESSED with appearance:

She may scoff at people wearing makeup and guys constantly falling at her feet. But that exactly our point- She's obsessed with Edwards attractiveness and her perceived lack of it. All she ever talks about is his perfect marble features and face 'carved by angels' Do we ever hear her giving a crap about his smart mouth or intelligence?? Rarely, if ever. It's all about the bronze hair and fit bod for Bella.

6. She's an ungrateful so and so:
She hates getting presents, hates surprises, hates people doing nice things for her- she makes it worse by showing people this hatred which makes them feel bad. NICE

Read more at

http://www.sugarscape.com...

The only thing that Twilight mainly focused on was the love story or lack of it. We all knew that Bella was going to choose Edward in the end because she kept telling Jacob," He was always the one." You've made a bunch of argument points about how the love story is awful in Harry Potter. Just because Ginny doesn't make out with Harry a week after they meet doesn't mean there's no love story. If you read the book(which I doubt you have) you would know that the relationship between all the characters grow throughout the book. A character doesn't have to get f*cked up in the 4tg book for there to be a love story.

The comment you made about Harry f*cking up Ginny after getting friend zoned is 1. Wrong and 2. Hypocritical. 1. Harry and Hermione NEVER had a romantic relationship in the first place!!! They were friends. And last time I checked Ginny and Harry got married and then had kids when they were ready. Not just as 18 year olds that forgot to use protection like Edward and Bella. 2. What about Jacob? He falls in love with a freaking BABY after getting friend zoned by Bella. And not just any baby, IT WAS BELLA'S VAMPIRE BABY. I wonder how much fun he'll have explaining that to Bella's DAUGHTER when she goes up.

There are other things in life then finding a love interest and HP focuses on that. HP goes through Harry's life and his life choices. You connect with Harry and can relate to most of his issues/ hesitancies. In Twilight all there is, is a live story. If you want to connect with Bella, the only way you can is to move to a rainy city and get a love story.

If you take the love story out of HP you still have a boy who has to defeat evil and the powerful/emotional journey he goes through in his life. If you take the love story out of Twilight you have a girl who moves to a rainy city.

Just keeping a secret doesn't mean your brave. You have to do other things too and be courageous. Bella had PLENTY of chances to stand up for Herself emotionally and physically,, but all she did was sit on the sidelines. Heroes are just ordinary people who do extraordinary things with their Life.

I do agree that Voldemort is a brave character. And Ron and everyone else in the series. I never said they werent. They were brave, and courageous. They stood up for what they believed in weather others thought it was good or bad. That's what true bravery is. Keeping secrets is one of then, but you have to do much more. Voldemort, Harry, Ron, Hermione, Neville, Luna, Tonks, etc. Are great examples of this. They did didn't care what others thought of them......they did what they thought was right in their hearts!! Bella........followed everything that Edward did. She decided she wanted to be a vampire days after she even know they existed.

BY THE WAY- You know the other person you argued with about this same topic earlier this week? PercyJacksonisdabest?Yeah....that was one of my BFF's from school so....*sticks tongue out at you*
Tough

Con

Tough forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 5
1 comment has been posted on this debate.
Posted by LADYBUG36 1 year ago
LADYBUG36
True:3
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by lannan13 1 year ago
lannan13
sky_from_the_unwantedsToughTied
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Total points awarded:40 
Reasons for voting decision: Forfeiture