The Instigator
coexist702
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
GOP
Con (against)
Winning
16 Points

Has God moved on?

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 3 votes the winner is...
GOP
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 7/7/2013 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,043 times Debate No: 35378
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (5)
Votes (3)

 

coexist702

Pro

People who are familiar with the bible may know some of the stories of the amazing things that God has done to help others (Example: Parting the red sea so the Israelites could cross). But why isn't God parting seas today? Why isn't he helping victims of violent crimes such as rape or abuse? The most logical assumption would be that he gave up on trying to make us good people and moved on. Maybe he said "You know what? I flooded this world once because of these people's wickedness, why should I do it again? Let them kill each other, let them rape each other; I give up." Maybe he started making a new race. Maybe he went to a planet deep in space and started a new creation. He obviously isn't as active in our lives like he was said to be in the bible. Why?
GOP

Con

Greetings. I would like to thank Pro for challenging me to this debate.

Pro asks why God does not do miracles, or "amazing things" like parting seas today. To begin with, one must understand He still does miracles today such as helping Israel deal with its hardships. Isaiah 41:12-14 says, "12 Thou shalt seek them, and shalt not find them, even them that contended with thee: they that war against thee shall be as nothing, and as a thing of nought. 13 For I the Lord thy God will hold thy right hand, saying unto thee, Fear not; I will help thee. 14 Fear not, thou worm Jacob, and ye men of Israel; I will help thee, saith the Lord, and thy redeemer, the Holy One of Israel." Here, the prophet Isaiah was trying to say that Israel would prevail over its enemies. In fact, the nation (newly formed at the time) defeated many countries like Egypt, Syria, Jordan and Iraq (1). Additionally, he wrote that Israel would be rich in vegetation and supply the entire world with produce. Isaiah 41:18-20 says, "18 I will open rivers in high places, and fountains in the midst of the valleys: I will make the wilderness a pool of water, and the dry land springs of water. 19 I will plant in the wilderness the cedar, the shittah tree, and the myrtle, and the oil tree; I will set in the desert the fir tree, and the pine, and the box tree together: 20 That they may see, and know, and consider, and understand together, that the hand of the Lord hath done this, and the Holy One of Israel hath created it." To substantiate this prophecy, Jewish National Fund has planted more than 250 million trees in Israel (2). Furthermore, Israel managed to be a major exporter of fresh produce, despite the fact that the land is not naturally conducive to agriculture. After all, Isaiah 27:6 records, "He shall cause them that come of Jacob to take root: Israel shall blossom and bud, and fill the face of the world with fruit." According to According to Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs, "citrus, the country's oldest export sector, remains the third largest agricultural export, with 250,000 tons of oranges, pink and white grapefruits, lemons, pomelos, and several varieties of easy-peeling tangerines, as well as concentrates, juices and other products, shipped abroad annually" (3).

So, I'd like to ask you, Pro, has God really moved on, considering the fact that the Jews are overcoming various types of obstacles? God specifically said that He would help the Israelis with their enemies. He also said that He would make the wilderness a pool of water and the dry land springs of water along with plants. This is because the Lord wanted us "to see, and know, and consider, and understand together," that He did all these things. However, there are specific miracles that the Lord does not do today, like parting seas. However, the question must be, why should the Lord part seas today? The Lord did that back then, because, well, the Israelites needed to cross. Moving on, Pro asks, "Why isn't he helping victims of violent crimes such as rape or abuse?" To answer this question, we must understand that God has His reasons for allowing certain things to occur. There is a purpose for these horrible events, or He would not let them happen. For example, Jesus Christ was tortured by many wicked men. One may ask, "Why did God let Jesus go through so much pain? Why did God let the evil men kill Christ? Why didn't He help Him?" God allowed this to happen because Jesus needed to die so that He could pay for our sins.

Moving on, Pro makes a lot of statements STARTING with the word "maybe", which implies that his arguments rely on mere possibilities. I must say that none of these possibilities are corroborated whatsoever. On the contrary, it has already been established that God has not given up on this planet. Therefore, the "maybe" statements are negated.
Finally, Pro writes, "He obviously isn't as active in our lives like he was said to be in the bible" and asks why. In the biblical times, many miracles were needed in order to validate the Scriptures. Today, the entire Bible has already been finished. This means that we do not need any further miracles (though miracles still happen today in a bit smaller scale) to validate the Bible. Also, Habakkuk 2:4 tells us, "4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith." "God does not give His people a continual chain of miraculous signs; He expects them to trust what He has already done, search the Scriptures daily, respond to the Holy Spirit within, and live by faith, not by sight (Matthew 16:4; John 20:29)" (4).

Sources:

1. http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...
2. http://www.jnf.org...
3. http://www.mfa.gov.il...
4. http://www.gotquestions.org...
Debate Round No. 1
coexist702

Pro

I would like to thank GOP for his reply

Regarding your second paragraph where you say "we must understand that God has His reasons for allowing certain things to occur. There is a purpose for these horrible events, or He would not let them happen." rape is the unlawful compelling of a person through physical force or duress to have sexual intercourse. My best friend was raped 7 months ago and she is a Buddhist. If we go to the bible specifically Matthew 10:14 it says "If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, leave that home or town and shake the dust off your feet" this means that if you choose not to follow the Christian faith, you will not be dammed but instead you will be left alone and God will remove himself from your life. If my friend is a Buddhist, meaning God has nothing to do with her since she chose not to follow him, how could her being raped be considered a work of God? He wasn't even supposed to be in her life in the first place.

You also said that God has his reasons for allowing certain things to occur. God had a reason for the virgin Mary to conceive a bear a son (Jesus) which was said in Matthew 1:21 "She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins." This reason, unlike rape, was very obvious after Jesus was born because then everyone was aware that he was born to save people from their sins. However, with rape, someone is put through an immense amount of shame, self-hate, and the struggle to move on from this traumatic event with almost no obvious reason. If rape truly was meant to happen there wouldn't be therapy for rape victims and rape wouldn't be considered a crime.

The same things apply to abuse. What intentions does God have for a little girl that she has to be beaten daily by her father? Abuse is defined as the systematic pattern of behaviors in a relationship that are used to gain and/or maintain power and control over another. So tell me GOP, what logical reasons are there for God to put someone through physical, emotional, psychological and/or sexual abuse causing the victim to possibly question their purpose here on Earth leading to suicidal thoughts or actions which is something that goes against the ten commandments specifically number six "You shall not kill".

Lastly, when you said in your last paragraph "miracles still happen today in a bit smaller scale" what do you mean by miracles? Please list a few in your reply so I can further understand what your are referring to.

I would again like to thank you for agreeing to debate with me and I am very much looking forward to the rest of this debate.

Sources
1. http://www.mincava.umn.edu...
2. http://dictionary.reference.com...
3. http://www.openbible.info...
4. http://www.biblegateway.com...
GOP

Con

I would like to thank my opponent for his response as well.

Yes, rape is the unlawful compelling of a person through physical force or duress to have sexual intercourse. I would like to point out that Pro took Matthew 10:14 out of context. If we read the beginning of the chapter, then we could see that it was part of the instructions given to the apostles by Jesus Christ. Matthew 10:5-14 says, "5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.9 Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses, 10 Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat. 11 And into whatsoever city or town ye shall enter, enquire who in it is worthy; and there abide till ye go thence. 12 And when ye come into an house, salute it. 13 And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you. 14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet." So, here, we can see that it does NOT refer to God removing Himself from the life of an unbeliever. Yes, Jesus did command the apostles to "shake off the dust" of their feet as they depart, but that simply had to do with the apostles at the time (this could apply to people evangelizing today).
Moreover, Ephesians 1:11 also contradicts Pro's claim that God has nothing to do with his Buddhist friend since she chose not to follow Him. The verse says, "In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:" Here, we can see that God works on all things, and all things include the life events of unbelievers such as the Pro's Buddhist friend. Also, her being raped is not considered a work of God. It is the work of the rapist. Did God do the raping? No, he simply allowed it for a reason. God is supposed to be involved in peoples' lives whether they are believers or unbelievers, because that is His sovereign nature (1).

Moving on, I did say that God has His reasons for allowing certain things to occur. I agree that everyone was aware that Jesus was born to save people from their sins. Unfortunately, awareness is not a relevant factor AT ALL. The point here is that everything happens because there is a reason for it, regardless of the obviousness of certain things. My opponent seemed to miss the part where I said, ". . . or He would not let them happen" (2). So, tell me, Pro, what difference does being aware of the reasons make? Also, my opponent brings up a hasty conclusion by saying, "If rape truly was meant to happen there wouldn't be therapy for rape victims and rape wouldn't be considered a crime." This implies that I said rape was meant to happen. This is contradictory because sin (God never wanted sin to be brought up in the beginning) was never meant to happen in the first place. No, rape was never meant to happen in the first place, but because of ongoing sin in this world and the misuse of free will, people commit wicked acts. Regardless, God, because He is infinitely powerful (3), has a plan for these atrocities.

Moving on, there could be lots of intentions that God has for a little girl that being beaten by her father daily. Some possible reasons (remember, some of them could be obvious, and vice-versa) could be the result of sin, for disciplining, for the prevention of further evil, etc (2). That little girl could have been very disobedient, or could have been doing wrong things herself. If she sins herself, then she could bring the results of other people (such as her father) using cruel means to hurt her. If the girl is lazy, then she could be getting disciplined by getting beaten every day. Maybe she could end up becoming worse (she could end up being a drug addict otherwise) and worse if she was not beaten daily. So, Pro, I'd like to ask you, can you really question about God's logical reasons for allowing certain things to occur? Even the victim's suicidal thoughts or actions have a purpose that we may not know of (whether we know the reasoning behind it or not is irrelevant, because there is a purpose either way), but God does. For example, we could end up getting various injuries and shameful traumas, causing us to angrily stare at the ceiling, saying, "How could this happen to me?!" Then, we could find ourselves becoming more resistant to pain. When we are hypothetically injured in that situation, what we may not realize is that the very bad thing that happened to us would ultimately be helping us. So, to say that there are no logical reasons for God to allow these "bad things" to exist is to claim omniscience yourself. There are many things that God allows, but we, with our finite minds, would have a difficult time comprehending the logic behind every bad thing that He allowed to occur. Simply put, it is not reasonable for us finite humans to question someone who is infinitely powerful in such a manner.


Now, here is the definition of the word "miracle" I had in mind: "something which man is not normally capable of making happen and which is therefore thought to be done by a god or God." (4). I have already listed a few miracles in the first round. However, I will repeat them again for the sake of courtesy and convenience. Those miracles include how Israel (newly formed at the time) defeated many countries like Egypt, Syria, Jordan, and Iraq, how Israel managed to have lots of vegetation in its originally dry lands, and how the aforementioned country is supplying the entire world with produce. However, these are in a much smaller scale because many other miracles were more evident during the times when the Bible was in the process of being written in order for it to be validated (as previously mentioned).


I am also looking forward to the rest of this debate. Thank you.


Sources:

1. http://www.gotquestions.org...
2. http://carm.org...
3. http://www.gotquestions.org...
4. http://www.thefreedictionary.com...



Debate Round No. 2
coexist702

Pro

I would like to thank Con for his reply.

First, Con states "God is supposed to be involved in peoples' lives whether they are believers or unbelievers, because that is His sovereign nature." but is he really? Yes, according to the bible, he is SUPPOSED to be involved in all peoples lives but is he really? What about the holocaust? The Depression? All those abuse victims? All those rape victims? He just sit back and watch his people suffer and you still worship him? You can say everything happens for a reason all you want, but you don't know the reason! How can you be so cold as to feel no sympathy for victims of crimes like rape or abuse just because you believe your God did it for a reason that you can't even truly identify?

Con also says "God, because He is infinitely powerful (3), has a plan for these atrocities". How do you know he is infinitely powerful? How do you know he has a plan for these atrocities? Right, you don't. No matter how much faith you put in God, you can never truly know what his plan is or if he has a plan at all. So I suggest we stop waiting for God's plan to prevail (if there even is a plan) and start fixing what's wrong now.

Next, Con asks me "can you really question about God's logical reasons for allowing certain things to occur?" yes, I can. Just because you believe that he works in mysterious ways and there's a reason for everything he does (even if it's ILLEGAL) doesn't mean I can't question him. Do I believe in God? No. Do I completely doubt the existence of him? No. I'm Agnostic, and just because Catholics believe God is all powerful and we shouldn't question him doesn't mean I can't question him and I can't have my own opinions on him.

Also, Con states "suicidal thoughts or actions have a purpose that we may not know of (whether we know the reasoning behind it or not is irrelevant, because there is a purpose either way)" are you joking? If God doesn't stop someone from ending their life for a temporary reason, I don't respect him. I've lost many people to suicide. People that I love, people that I care about, people that I still miss today. Those people are gone, and you're telling me that there's a purpose? Was there really a purpose for me, at six years old, to walk in on my father blowing his brains out? Yes, that happened to me. And what good did that do to anyone? None

Yes, I had a very messed up childhood. And instead of waiting for God to help me, I took action. I went to therapy, I started taking anti-depressants and I became more happy overall. And do I thank God for any of that? No. Because I DID IT. I was strong. I fixed my life, not God.

Before I let Con conclude, I would like to ask the voters this (Con may also tell the voters something if he desires) what if God has moved on? No one really knows. Not me. Not my opponent. Not anyone. So do you want to sit around and wait for God to fix your problems or give you a reason for the terrible things that have happened to you, or do you want to take action and fix it yourself? Stop waiting for a God that may never help you and help yourself. You control what you want to do in life, not God.

I would like to thank my opponent for the amazing debate
GOP

Con

Firstly, I would say that He really is involved in peoples' lives. If He allowed (allowing something is an action) something to happen to people, then that means He was involved in their lives. What Pro does not realize here is that the Holocaust led to the formation of Israel (1). I have already said that Isaiah prophesied God forming Israel, correct? 1 Peter 5:10 says, "But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you." Here, we can see that after the Jews suffered a while, God strengethened and settled them. As for the Great Depression, Pro also fails to realize the good things that it came along with. "Truth is, there’s a bright side to the gloomy Thirties — a lower cost of living, huge technological advances, new forms of entertainment, more leisure time, and a return to responsible social behavior . . . It was the beginning of the five-day work week….the Golden Age of radio and film….the playing of social sports like bridge, Monopoly, and softball….leisure time to read books and dance the jitterbug….while scientists invented the electron microscope, FM radio, radar, the jet airplane, and network television . . . There’s an old Asian saying, “It is the irritation in the oyster that forms the pearl.” A few people couldn’t take the hard times and jumped out windows, but most people responded to the challenge. Adversity often brings out creativity and opportunities to learn and advance. The 1930s were no exception" (2). For cases like rape and abuse, you can say that I do not know the actual reason, but then again, is knowing it or not actually relevant, as long as you know that God, who is infinitely powerful and holy has it under control (if it is not under control then He would be denying His nature)? Also, why do you assume that I feel no sympathy for victims of crimes?

Jeremiah 32:17 says, "Ah Lord GOD! behold, thou hast made the heaven and the earth by thy great power and stretched out arm, and there is nothing too hard for thee:" If nothing is too hard for God, then He is infinitely powerful. I also know that God has a plan for these atrocities because Ephesians 1:11 (I have already mentioned this before) says, "In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:" Now, we can see here that God works on all things, and all things include these atrocities. Sp. you may not be able to know what His plan is, but you can certainly know He has a plan. Also, to fix what's wrong now is to use what God has already provided us as resources.

Moving on, let me just say that you certainly can use your free will to question about His reaons for allowing certain things to occur, but that would not be a logical choice. You certainly can have your own opinions on Him, but you must keep in mind that none of these opinions are Biblically valid whatsoever, as I have previously shown you. Moreover, I am not joking when I say that suicidal thoughts or actions have a purpose that we may not know of. There was a purpose for every case like that. Like I said, God works on all things, does He not? I understand that arbitrary human emotions can get in the way a lot, but again, do keep in mind that His ways can be too hard for our finite minds to comprehend.

If you went to therapy and recovered from that, then keep in mind that you used a resource provided by God. James 1:17 tells us, "Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning." So, you got the good gift of therapy from God. For this reason, I would have thanked God if I were you.

I would like to thank my opponent once again for this debate. I would also like to point out that my opponent dropped a lot of points here (like the prophecies concerning Israel, his misrepresentation of Matthew 10:14, and so on). A lot of reasoning he used was based on emotional appeal. Regardless, I am happy that my opponent challenged me to this debate. I hope we learned something from here.

Sources:

1. http://www.gotquestions.org...
2. http://www.humanevents.com...
Debate Round No. 3
5 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
Posted by Sandy8 3 years ago
Sandy8
God has not given up on us, some of us have just given up on Him.
He never wanted us to suffer in the first place, but man chose this fate.
He lets these crimes and terrible events occur not because He gave up on us, but because there is always a reason behind everything. The reason may not be obvious at first, or might not be obvious at all, but it is still there whether you discover it or not. For example, if someone close to you dies, maybe its because God didn't want them to suffer, or their death was the only way for you to realize how much they meant to you.
In addition, it is sin that causes these crimes to happen, not God. Man cannot blame God for his mistakes, because God gave us a mind to think and it is not His fault that we did not use it wisely.
Posted by O.Z 3 years ago
O.Z
God still does miracles today. He sent us concerned citizens who are capable of stopping these atrocities.
Posted by sweetbreeze 3 years ago
sweetbreeze
Please edit it and challenge GOP to this debate.
Posted by sweetbreeze 3 years ago
sweetbreeze
Please let GOP do this.
Posted by sweetbreeze 3 years ago
sweetbreeze
Of course He didn't move on. He loves us dearly, and He's willing to save us always. He would never want us to suffer.
3 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Vote Placed by Mikal 3 years ago
Mikal
coexist702GOPTied
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Reasons for voting decision: Stating ahead of time I hate the bible but I have been studying apologetics, theology, and religion as a whole since I was 17. i love the impact it has on people. Now assuming we are debating this from a biblical standpoint and not off of assumption Con wins arguments. As someone below me stated. Conduct to Con because Pro attacked his character. Also grammar to Con because of sentence structure and layout. Overall I feel con had a more appealing argument, and offered rebuttals for everything Pro brought up. Overall I believe Con had a better Resolution.
Vote Placed by gordonjames 3 years ago
gordonjames
coexist702GOPTied
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Reasons for voting decision: Con made sense
Vote Placed by JustinAMoffatt 3 years ago
JustinAMoffatt
coexist702GOPTied
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Reasons for voting decision: RFD: Conduct- Goes to Con because of Pro's outburst at the end/ad hominem attack. Asking Con how he could be "co cold" personally is an attack on his character, and not an argument. S/G- Pretty well handled by both sides. Args- This was a pretty solid debate until Pro's round 3. I didn't like all the questions in the beginning, but Pro at least tried to argue in round 2 (and did a pretty decent job of it). However, in round 3 he started stating that no one could know if God moved on or not (thereby stating that the BOP could not be fulfilled on his part). Anyways, ad hominem and questions are not logical arguments. Try and keep yourself focused on the facts, and not your personal opinions, Pro. Sources- I gave this to Con because he quoted more scripture, and called Pro out on misquoting scripture.