The Instigator
Bluepaintcan123
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
Sarra
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

Has Modern Feminism been Detrimental?

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 9/6/2015 Category: Society
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,025 times Debate No: 79444
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (15)
Votes (0)

 

Bluepaintcan123

Pro

This debate will be organized as a simple back and forth, mostly based on your own prior knowledge (though you may use sources if necessary.) This isn't anything really serious, I just want to hear the opposing arguments for these positions and spend some time learning something new.

I have taken the position that modern feminism has not been very helpful towards women, and has actually ruined their image. In fact, there are women who say they are feminists (although they don't seem that way in certain instances) which promote censorship of certain ideas because it somehow harms women. This is a big problem since these feminists are well known in their community and have a powerful say on the internet. I am afraid that they might succeed in censoring opposing ideas simply because they are a minority.
Sarra

Con

I accepted this debate, because I am interested in hearing Bluepaintcan's opinion of modern feminism and how it is detrimental. The only detrimental part of feminism is people from Faux Noise and other people on the conservative right giving us labels, then arguing that these false labels are bad. If anyone wants a list of labels we have been given, please review the many pictures of #womenagainstfeminism. Almost everything they are against are attributes we are also against. Feminists like myself: do not hate me, are not afraid of men, do not view women as victims, are not against women who like to cook and clean for their men, do not want to tell women what they can or cannot do, etc.

Feminism is and has always been about equality. Great strives have been made in equality, but we are not there yet. My mom gets paid $7,000 per year less than her male counterpart for the same government job and same number of years in that job (North Carolina). If pay equality exists, like some people will suggest, then why did President Obama feel it necessary to pass the Lily Ledbetter Act?

Another big aspect is that we are against men posting on revengep**n sites, we are against women who get d**th or r*p* threats through the internet, we are against people's cell phones getting hacked and having their n**ed pictures and videos posted on the internet. next_level_world_sense posted a comment on my profile 3 days ago. I receive a lot of messages like the one next_level sent me (on other sites). Do you believe that it is acceptable behavior for the people who do these horrible thing?

"A huge part of being a feminist is giving other women the freedom to make choices you might not necessarily make yourself." - Lena Dunham
Debate Round No. 1
Bluepaintcan123

Pro

Thanks for accepting my challenge.

The concept of Feminism is basically "the advocacy of women's rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men" and correct me if I'm wrong. Just looking at this I can already see a problem with it. In order to explain it, I like to use a quote from a famous Youtuber that I watch: "Feminism is the idea that we can make both sexes equal by focusing solely on the issues of one of them." (The Amazing Atheist) Shouldn't we try to achieve gender equality by trying to help each other and standing for the rights of each other? Sorry, but I think that Feminism is pretty outdated. It was for a time when women needed to speak out just so they could get a divorce, or get a job, or even own property. Women have a voice today, and it is a powerful one. Women are seen as amazing thinking people, just like men. We are all people after all.
Feminism in the past has been a positive influence in the lives of women and has helped to give them the right that they deserve, but this isn't the past anymore. Also, I doubt that there is even an established Patriarchy anymore. Women can do anything they want in 1st world countries, and if anything happens to them people absolutely lose it. Since I'm writing this at the top of my head, I'll use the example of Chris Brown hitting Rihanna. People lost their minds over it, and they are still called him an a**hole to this day. Even if it isn't a famous woman, people get together like angry mobs to make sure it doesn't happen. Campuses have been trying to lower sexual assault and rape on campus. It is obvious that people care and love women, and they want them to be equal without needing to be a Feminist.
The people you should really be against are those guys with these stupid dating seminars where they take advantage of and practically intimidate women into dating and sleeping with them. Those guys don't care about women and they are truly disgusting.
Also I don't see anything that is extremely offensive about #womenagainstfeminism. So they called you a couple of names you don't agree with, so what? That just means it is your duty (or any other Feminist) to stand up and say that the Feminists that are actually like that are totally different from you. I am an Atheist and I've seen people misrepresent the idea ALL the time! I don't use it as a reason to be an Atheist, I use it as a reason to inform people and let them know that there is more to it than what they just assume. It really is kind of upsetting that you bring up something like that but don't even argue about the real sexism in the world, such as in third world countries. What about Muslim fathers who want to force their daughters to cover themselves even if they don't believe the same things he does? Most of those women in need are out of reach from the grasp that Feminism has, because there doesn't seem to be a lot of Feminists going to those countries where women are actually in need of help.
As for getting d**th and r*p* threats, no offense but have you ever been on the Internet before? Everyone gets them! Unless you say nothing and do nothing there will always be people like that. Trying to stop it because they act like children is just a waste of precious time and it wouldn't work either, so it isn't a cause you should spend your time on.
By the way, the wage gap situation is a huge mystery to everyone. Some feminists say .77 on the dollar, others claim less and others claim more. There are so many factors that contribute to it as well, so you can't use the numbers untouched. How long has she been working for them, how many hours does she work, what days of the week does she work, does she do overtime, what college degree does she have, how many languages does she speak, etc., etc., etc. There could be plenty more reasons than gender on why your mother is paid less that isn't gender. You shouldn't jump to the conclusion you assume it is until you've fully understood that it could be a number of things.

I understand that you would like to make the world a better place for your fellow women, but I would rather you make the world a better place for everyone. Feminism just won't cut it anymore, and it is being abused under the guise of equality. You could always be an egalitarian.
Sarra

Con

First, feminism has nothing to do with religion or an absent thereof.

*sigh* Labelling me with false labels then arguing those labels are bad" Thanks for proving my point.

You claim that Feminism only focuses on women"s issues. This just isn"t true. For example, a lot of men have started being the primary caregiver in their household. Breaking apart traditional gender stereotypes is important, especially for these men"s children.

You claim that everyone gets online d**th and r*** threats. I would wager that some people (both men and some women) do not get threatened while online. While some men get online d**th threats, they do not get them as often or with the content as horrible as the women who get them [1]. Men, by in large, do not get online r*** threats.

You claim: "It is obvious that people care and love women, and they want them to be equal without needing to be a Feminist." Most people yes. Some people definitely no. There is a group called the MRAholes aka Male Right Activists. Most MRAholes I have met definitely hate the idea of a woman working anywhere outside of the kitchen.

You claim that the wage gap is a huge mystery to everyone. Referring back to my example, if you have a master"s degree from a university, you work for the state government of North Carolina for 28 years, and you work full time in the health field; you get paid $7,000 per year more if you are man. What other conclusion can you imagine there being? Can you give a specific example where women working the same job with the same college degrees and for the same amount of hours and with the same amount of work experience at that job gets paid more than their men counterparts?

*sigh* You wrote: "There is almost nothing offensive with #womenagainstfeminism." To quote myself: "Almost everything they are against are attributes we are also against." The general message on their cards are "I am against feminism for false labels others have given feminists, but I am for the real feminist labels #womenagainstfeminism."

Feminists have strived for the rights to: an education, vote, work, birth control, have choice about abortion, be free from rape, fair wages and/or equal pay, own property, hold public office, enter into legal contracts, serve in the military, freedom to plan their families how they want, and freedom to not have children if they want. Not every woman and/or feminist is going to agree with everything that I have mentioned. Some may add to this list. Modern feminism is about protecting the rights we have and pursing the rights we don"t have. While we do have most of these rights in America, many women around the world do not. ICW, #heforshe, WfWI, and FEMEN are examples international feminist groups.

Sources
[1]: http://time.com...
Debate Round No. 2
Bluepaintcan123

Pro

I never said that Feminism had anything to do with religion. The only time I mentioned religion is when I used the example that there are girls forced to participate in practices that force them to do things they don't want to, which is something that Feminists should be concerned with. Religion is often used as an excuse to mistreat women, which is why I mentioned it.
Also I didn't label you, so you don't need to sigh and act like i'm an ignorant person. The only thing mildly close was when I searched up the definition of Feminism, which I thought was a fair definition. Also the issue with Feminism focusing on women's rights does have truth to it, the whole point of Feminism is to make women equal to men. If there were any requirements for being a Feminist, advocating men's rights would not be one of them. A Feminists is someone who believes that women are oppressed or disadvantaged, so they advocate women getting the same rights as men.

"While some men get online d**th threats, they do not get them as often or with the content as horrible as the women who get them [1]. Men, by in large, do not get online r*** threats." Where did you get that impression?
I immediately Googled this to see if you had a point, but I think you're exaggerating. (1)"Boys are more likely to be threatened by cyber bullies than girls." Granted, "Girls are at least as likely as boys to be cyber bullies or their victims" but that would mean they are just as likely, and you said it rarely happens to guys. Also, (2)"More girls are cyberbullies than boys (59% girls and 41% boys.)" Granted the statistics didn't always show the same results, so i'll show the other ones just to be fair to you.
(3)"The prevalence of having been bullied electronically was higher among females (22.1%) than male (10.8%) students."
(4) "Girls are about twice as likely as boys to be victims and perpetrators of cyberbullying."
I think this is pretty fitting statistics, because it shows that women are just as likely to do something like this as men. True equality goes both ways, good or bad. Not only this but this shows that even though men aren't as likely to be cyberbullied, it isn't the way you said it was. (Also I used teen cyberbullying statistics because I figured there would be the most reliable information on those types of websites.

I think it's funny and ironic when you talk about MRAs. When someone calls a Feminist something like a Feminazi you say that it's not true and they're just falsely labeling them. Then you do the same thing to MRA's by saying they are women-hating and that they are a**holes. You tell me that I am hypocritical, but there are times when you need to realize that you do the same thing.

Then you make the point that since most people care about women and not all, it validates your point. It does not. There will always be an opposition to any movement, no matter what. The day you find something that everyone in this world agrees with (and I mean everyone) then this would be a valid argument. A majority of the world is religious, and a lot of them are opposed to Atheism. Its the same the opposite way as well. If you deny this, then there is no doubt that your beliefs are so strong they have clouded your judgment.

On the matter of the pay gap, you didn't address the long list of factor I gave to you that could be the reasons why your mother was paid less. If you are not going to address my arguments then i'll have to assume you don't know how to respond without admitting that I might have a point.

As for your conclusion, I had stated in my argument that Feminism is outdated because a person doesn't need to be a Feminist in order to stand for those rights. Do you know what that indicates? It means that they already recognize that list as basic human rights, not Feminist issues. Modern Feminism doesn't need to be around for much longer, because older Feminism has done it's job: getting women recognized as equal people. Equal people get disadvantaged too, so it is the right of other equal people to make sure that human rights are established. It should never have been about men or women, it should have been about people.
Thank you for allowing your ideas to be questioned, and I hope you have more good arguments for me to try to refute.

Sources:
(1) http://www.bullyingstatistics.org...
(2) http://www.internetsafety101.org...
(3) http://www.meganmeierfoundation.org...
(4) https://www.dosomething.org...
Sarra

Con

I was writing something nice and casual ("This isn't anything really serious, I just want to hear the opposing arguments for these positions and spend some time learning something new.") until I reread Pro"s post and came across where Pro mentioned "If you are not going to address my arguments then i'll have to assume you don't know how to respond without admitting that I might have a point."

Pro writes: "I never said that Feminism had anything to do with religion."
In round 2 Pro wrote:
"It really is kind of upsetting that you bring up something like that but don't even argue about the real sexism in the world, such as in third world countries. What about Muslim fathers who want to force their daughters to cover themselves even if they don't believe the same things he does?"
Pro wrote that Pro was upset that I did not connect Feminism to religion, so Pro connected them instead.

Pro writes: "The only time I mentioned religion is when I used the example that there are girls""
In round 2 Pro wrote:
"I am an Atheist and I've seen people misrepresent the idea ALL the time! I don't use it as a reason to be an Atheist, I use it as a reason to inform people and let them know that there is more to it than what they just assume. It really is kind of upsetting that you bring up something like that but don't even argue about the real sexism in the world, such as in third world countries. What about Muslim fathers who want to force their daughters to cover themselves even if they don't believe the same things he does?"
Pro then mention religion two more times in Round 3.

Pro writes: "Also I didn't label you, so you don't need to sigh and act like i'm an ignorant person."
Please take note that Pro was the one who brought up "ignorant". I believe Pro is not ignorant.
In round one, I try to explain that people give feminists false "labels, then arguing that these false labels are bad." In round 2, Pro quotes a youtuber "Feminism is the idea that we can make both sexes equal by focusing solely on the issues of one of them." This is a false label. Pro then argues this false label is bad.

Pro writes: "If there were any requirements for being a Feminist, advocating men's rights would not be one of them."
I addressed this in Round 2: "This just isn"t true. For example, a lot of men have started being the primary caregiver in their household. Breaking apart traditional gender stereotypes is important, especially for these men"s children." Pro agrees with me in round 3: "the whole point of Feminism is to make women equal to men." Equal rights. Equal opportunity.

Cyberbullying was first introduced by Pro in Round 3. I concede cyberbullying to Pro. If I had realized Pro was 15, I would not have brought up threats, revenge sites, or cell phone hacks. I hope Pro never has to experience these things.

Pro writes: "I think it's funny and ironic when you talk about MRAs. When someone calls a Feminist something like a Feminazi you say that it's not true and they're just falsely labeling them."
This is another example where someone makes a false claim, then argues that the false claim is bad. Some people are feminazis.

Pro writes: "Then you do the same thing to MRA's by saying they are women-hating and that they are a**holes."
First, I never wrote they were women-hating.
Once Pro has a MRA tell Pro to Pros face "a woman is the useless skin around the v*****", Pro may feel differently about them too. MRA"s actually believe that men are oppressed around the world and have been for many centuries, women are inferior because the Bible says so, violence against women is not significant, women earning less money than men is justified because women should only be working in kitchens making their men sandwiches, and women whine about everything. MRAs believe that the appropriate punishment for a man groping a woman in public is for the woman to slap the man [1].

Pro writes: "You tell me that I am hypocritical, but there are times when you need to realize that you do the same thing."
First, I would like to point out that I never wrote Pro was hypocritical. Truthful labels are not hypocritical. I have an issue with false labels. Calling a member of the MRA obtuse is an example of false labeling.

I"m not sure what Pro means by "Its the same the opposite way as well."

Pro writes: "On the matter of the pay gap, you didn't address the long list of factor I gave to you that could be the reasons why your mother was paid less."
Full time is 40 hours, M-F, without overtime. Both men and women only speak English. Master"s degree are post-college. While I have never asked my mom for the exact name of her Master"s degree, I suspect something like Masters of Public Nursing.

Feminist (n) means someone who advocates women"s rights [2]. Someone being against feminists and for women"s rights (aka feminists) is silly. This almost a direct comparison to my comment regarding #womenagainstfeminism in Round 2.

I believe Pro has failed to prove that feminism is detrimental. Vote Con.

Sources
[1]: http://www.infinitelooper.com...
[2]: http://dictionary.reference.com...
Debate Round No. 3
15 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Sarra 2 years ago
Sarra
I've been giving our discussion a lot of consideration for the last week. I believe you are correct about a lot and we agree with a lot of the issues with feminism. I wish that feminism would encompass true equality of both genders (how women get shorter jail sentences then men for the same crime; how men are typically the victim in violent crimes; that women are not always the victim or oppressed and how men are not always the oppressors or are not always privileged . Men get abused (maybe not as much as women?) and probably should get safe houses.) I hope you have a wonderful night Blue.
Posted by Bluepaintcan123 2 years ago
Bluepaintcan123
You may be right that it has to do with location. I'm also sorry that you have to deal with a backwards community of idiots (voting fraud is really stupid anyways, hardly anyone does it.)
Feminism is still pretty misguided since many famous feminists are focused on video games being sexist rather than your situation. I even saw a news story about a women who thinks air conditioners are sexist!
I don't think I could ever be a Feminist, though.
Posted by Sarra 2 years ago
Sarra
I feel that our difference of opinions with regards to feminism stems from where in the country we live. In New York, you live in relative safety with regards to your rights as a woman. NYC is usually on the cutting edge of newer rights for women, such as being able to be topless in public. I live in rural, bass ackwards North Carolina. North Carolina republicans pass laws like
http://www.ncleg.net...
and
http://www.ncleg.net...
which means my rights are still debatable on a state level. North Carolina recently passed a restrictive voter law (because they felt the roughly 5 voter fraud convictions each year were too many) that will prevent 300,000+ North Carolinians from voting, most of whom will be women. With republicans seeing women's rights as a debatable and not a settled topic, I view that feminism is still needed to protect us in NC.
Posted by Bluepaintcan123 2 years ago
Bluepaintcan123
Note: Sarra you don"t have to read this.
Also, to anyone else who is about to read this, the following is addressing Sarra"s final argument. This isn't a part of the debate so feel free to ignore this and you don't need to make your voting judgment based on this. In fact, don't.
I just wanted to clarify a few things to Sarra if she wants to read this.
"There is a group called the MRAholes aka Male Right Activists. Most MRAholes I have met definitely hate the idea of a woman working anywhere outside of the kitchen."
MRAholes? That sounds like an insult to me. Also you imply that they hate women"s rights by saying that they want women to stay in the kitchen. That choice of words is reminding me of the stereotypical fat man in a wife beater saying "B*tch, go into the kitchen and make me a sandwich!"
I didn"t write exactly what you wrote, but I wasn"t exaggerating as much as you would believe. Also MRA"s aren"t women hating, just like Feminists aren"t man-hating. That seems like a double-standard you have, since there are plenty of MRA"s that genuinely want the same thing plenty of Feminists want, except the male equivalent.
I don"t think it"s nessesary for me to repeat myself, but because I am stubborn I will. "I have an issue with false labels." You say that but also say what I"ve quoted above.

"Full time is 40 hours, M-F, without overtime. Both men and women only speak English. Master"s degree are post-college. While I have never asked my mom for the exact name of her Master"s degree, I suspect something like Masters of Public Nursing."
Thank you for clarifying this, and I guess I was wrong about that. I"m not so sure there is a law that could be placed to fix this though, since it would be difficult to make sure all employers are paying their employee"s properly. You do make a legit point on the pay gap, though.

(This is the last thing I had to say. Sorry about the excessiveness of the argument.) :(
Posted by Bluepaintcan123 2 years ago
Bluepaintcan123
Note: Sarra you don"t have to read this.
Also, to anyone else who is about to read this, the following is addressing Sarra"s final argument. This isn't a part of the debate so feel free to ignore this and you don't need to make your voting judgment based on this. In fact, don't.
I just wanted to clarify a few things to Sarra if she wants to read this.
It is a similar situation with religious people (sorry for having to bring up religion AGAIN, but it is the best example I can come up with.) Christians can"t agree on anything (pro-choice/pro-life, pro contraception/anti contraception, pro porn/anti porn, pro homosexuality/anti homosexuality, pro divorce/anti divorce, and you get the point.) They all still believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ, and that is required to be considered a Christian.
I"m just using deduction in order to figure these things out.

"Cyberbullying was first introduced by Pro in Round 3. I concede cyberbullying to Pro. If I had realized Pro was 15, I would not have brought up threats, revenge sites, or cell phone hacks. I hope Pro never has to experience these things."
You don"t need to avoid a topic just because it related to me. Saying that makes me feel like a child (I still sort of am, but whatever) and I think I"m mature enough to take it. I have never been cyberbullied, though, just so you know. This is the first website I"ve ever actively stated my opinion on (I don"t even write anything on twitter, tumblr, facebook or any other site specifically to never get cyberbullied.)
Also, just call me blue and not pro.

(I'll be posting a few more parts to this.)
Posted by Bluepaintcan123 2 years ago
Bluepaintcan123
Note: Sarra you don"t have to read this.
Also, to anyone else who is about to read this, the following is addressing Sarra"s final argument. This isn't a part of the debate so feel free to ignore this and you don't need to make your voting judgment based on this. In fact, don't.
I just wanted to clarify a few things to Sarra if she wants to read this.
Feminism is a fight for female rights. It has been since the very beginning. If it fought for men"s rights as well, then that would mean that the women that started Feminism would have fought for some kind of male right too, but they didn"t. That is why I said it wasn"t a requirement to advocate for women"s rights. Also I have seen Feminists on the internet saying that men don"t have any disadvantages in society, so I could only conclude that not all Feminists are in support of men"s rights. You may be a Feminist that believes in men"s rights, but it is more of an additional believe since it has nothing to do with Feminism (hence the fem part, implying female rights.)
Take note of "the whole point of Feminism is to make women equal to men." It does not mean the same thing if you write "men equal to women." If the definition was for men and women to be equal, then I would take back my entire argument and maybe send an apology but I think I addressed it correctly. Also egalitarian would be a more accurate word if you believe in people"s rights.

"This just isn"t true. For example, a lot of men have started being the primary caregiver in their household. Breaking apart traditional gender stereotypes is important, especially for these men"s children." This is your personal belief, and not all Feminists would agree with you. I understand that there are many feminists who disagree with one another but they all believe in the most basic principal "women are not equal to men."

(I'll be posting a few more parts to this.)
Posted by Bluepaintcan123 2 years ago
Bluepaintcan123
Note: Sarra you don"t have to read this.
Also, to anyone else who is about to read this, the following is addressing Sarra"s final argument. This isn't a part of the debate so feel free to ignore this and you don't need to make your voting judgment based on this. In fact, don't.
I just wanted to clarify a few things to Sarra if she wants to read this.
Also when I said that I am an Atheist, I was using it as an example. "I"ve seen people misrepresent the idea ALL the time!" Atheists are assumed to hate God and "pretend" that they don"t believe. They are also thought to be fedora-wearing neckbeards, which many are not (last time I checked I never owned a fedora.) I was giving an example of how ideas are misrepresented, no matter what they stood for.
A Feminist equivalent would be similar to this:
"I"m a Feminist and I"ve seen people misrepresent the idea ALL the time!"

The constant sighing is implying a certain attitude there, so I may have been making assumptions but you really didn"t need to put that in. There was no need to show that you were sighing so I had to assume you were getting impatient with me. The closest reason you would be impatient with me is because I"m saying something that you think is ignorant or that you disagree with. You didn"t outright do it simply because I don"t agree with Feminism so I deducted that you thought I was ignorant.
Also I tend to overanalyze things, so there is your explanation for why this comment is too d*mn long.
"Feminism is the idea that we can make both sexes equal by focusing solely on the issues of one of them." This isn"t something that I"ve said, but what The Amazing Atheist has said. I do mostly agree with it, but only because it is historically backed.

(I'll be posting a few more parts to this.)
Posted by Bluepaintcan123 2 years ago
Bluepaintcan123
Note: Sarra you don"t have to read this. I just felt like I needed to add this since I felt you didn"t understand what I was saying, understandably. I am not very clear when I write so it makes sense that you would find a lot of fault in my arguments. Also, as you could probably tell, I don"t debate often so any comments I made that were insulting to you were unfair and I probably should have not put them into the argument. I added insults which would only cloud my judgment and cause me to write false statements, so sorry about that. I get very "passionate" about debating.
Also, to anyone else who is about to read this, the following is addressing Sarra"s final argument. This isn"t a part of the debate so feel free to ignore this and you don"t need to make your voting judgment based on this. In fact, don"t.
I just wanted to clarify a few things to Sarra if she wants to read this.

When I mentioned Muslim girls being forced to believe in what their father believed, I was trying to show that women were given limited rights. Women aren"t allowed to drive or divorce in the Muslim faith either.
I wasn"t trying to draw a direct parallel between religion and Feminism, I was mentioning Islam because it is mainly in the Middle East (where Feminism can"t reach those women.) I don"t see Feminists often do things about those issues, even though they talk about them on occasion. They mostly seemed focused on issues like rape and the pay gap in first world countries. This is just a speculation from what I"ve seen Feminists say and do.
I didn"t connect the two, I needed examples and a lot of times religion is used as an excuse to oppress people like women (it"s even in the bible too, just read Genesis and it will tell women to submit to their men. It isn"t my fault that religion is very influential, it was bound to have an effect on Feminism.)

(I'll be posting a few more parts to this)
Posted by OracleNot 2 years ago
OracleNot
Nature is all around us, we observe it, we wonder at its beauty, we study the whys and the how's and we all then proceed to go against all that nature has taught us. This is because "WE KNOW BEST" What have we learnt? Will we ever learn? Nature has all the answers but we are blind.
Posted by DuBbAcOnCaT 2 years ago
DuBbAcOnCaT
Oh, okay I understand. I would debate, but I haven't quite formed an opinion.
No votes have been placed for this debate.