Has Modern Feminism been Detrimental?
Debate Rounds (3)
I have taken the position that modern feminism has not been very helpful towards women, and has actually ruined their image. In fact, there are women who say they are feminists (although they don't seem that way in certain instances) which promote censorship of certain ideas because it somehow harms women. This is a big problem since these feminists are well known in their community and have a powerful say on the internet. I am afraid that they might succeed in censoring opposing ideas simply because they are a minority.
Feminism is and has always been about equality. Great strives have been made in equality, but we are not there yet. My mom gets paid $7,000 per year less than her male counterpart for the same government job and same number of years in that job (North Carolina). If pay equality exists, like some people will suggest, then why did President Obama feel it necessary to pass the Lily Ledbetter Act?
Another big aspect is that we are against men posting on revengep**n sites, we are against women who get d**th or r*p* threats through the internet, we are against people's cell phones getting hacked and having their n**ed pictures and videos posted on the internet. next_level_world_sense posted a comment on my profile 3 days ago. I receive a lot of messages like the one next_level sent me (on other sites). Do you believe that it is acceptable behavior for the people who do these horrible thing?
"A huge part of being a feminist is giving other women the freedom to make choices you might not necessarily make yourself." - Lena Dunham
The concept of Feminism is basically "the advocacy of women's rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men" and correct me if I'm wrong. Just looking at this I can already see a problem with it. In order to explain it, I like to use a quote from a famous Youtuber that I watch: "Feminism is the idea that we can make both sexes equal by focusing solely on the issues of one of them." (The Amazing Atheist) Shouldn't we try to achieve gender equality by trying to help each other and standing for the rights of each other? Sorry, but I think that Feminism is pretty outdated. It was for a time when women needed to speak out just so they could get a divorce, or get a job, or even own property. Women have a voice today, and it is a powerful one. Women are seen as amazing thinking people, just like men. We are all people after all.
Feminism in the past has been a positive influence in the lives of women and has helped to give them the right that they deserve, but this isn't the past anymore. Also, I doubt that there is even an established Patriarchy anymore. Women can do anything they want in 1st world countries, and if anything happens to them people absolutely lose it. Since I'm writing this at the top of my head, I'll use the example of Chris Brown hitting Rihanna. People lost their minds over it, and they are still called him an a**hole to this day. Even if it isn't a famous woman, people get together like angry mobs to make sure it doesn't happen. Campuses have been trying to lower sexual assault and rape on campus. It is obvious that people care and love women, and they want them to be equal without needing to be a Feminist.
The people you should really be against are those guys with these stupid dating seminars where they take advantage of and practically intimidate women into dating and sleeping with them. Those guys don't care about women and they are truly disgusting.
Also I don't see anything that is extremely offensive about #womenagainstfeminism. So they called you a couple of names you don't agree with, so what? That just means it is your duty (or any other Feminist) to stand up and say that the Feminists that are actually like that are totally different from you. I am an Atheist and I've seen people misrepresent the idea ALL the time! I don't use it as a reason to be an Atheist, I use it as a reason to inform people and let them know that there is more to it than what they just assume. It really is kind of upsetting that you bring up something like that but don't even argue about the real sexism in the world, such as in third world countries. What about Muslim fathers who want to force their daughters to cover themselves even if they don't believe the same things he does? Most of those women in need are out of reach from the grasp that Feminism has, because there doesn't seem to be a lot of Feminists going to those countries where women are actually in need of help.
As for getting d**th and r*p* threats, no offense but have you ever been on the Internet before? Everyone gets them! Unless you say nothing and do nothing there will always be people like that. Trying to stop it because they act like children is just a waste of precious time and it wouldn't work either, so it isn't a cause you should spend your time on.
By the way, the wage gap situation is a huge mystery to everyone. Some feminists say .77 on the dollar, others claim less and others claim more. There are so many factors that contribute to it as well, so you can't use the numbers untouched. How long has she been working for them, how many hours does she work, what days of the week does she work, does she do overtime, what college degree does she have, how many languages does she speak, etc., etc., etc. There could be plenty more reasons than gender on why your mother is paid less that isn't gender. You shouldn't jump to the conclusion you assume it is until you've fully understood that it could be a number of things.
I understand that you would like to make the world a better place for your fellow women, but I would rather you make the world a better place for everyone. Feminism just won't cut it anymore, and it is being abused under the guise of equality. You could always be an egalitarian.
*sigh* Labelling me with false labels then arguing those labels are bad" Thanks for proving my point.
You claim that Feminism only focuses on women"s issues. This just isn"t true. For example, a lot of men have started being the primary caregiver in their household. Breaking apart traditional gender stereotypes is important, especially for these men"s children.
You claim that everyone gets online d**th and r*** threats. I would wager that some people (both men and some women) do not get threatened while online. While some men get online d**th threats, they do not get them as often or with the content as horrible as the women who get them . Men, by in large, do not get online r*** threats.
You claim: "It is obvious that people care and love women, and they want them to be equal without needing to be a Feminist." Most people yes. Some people definitely no. There is a group called the MRAholes aka Male Right Activists. Most MRAholes I have met definitely hate the idea of a woman working anywhere outside of the kitchen.
You claim that the wage gap is a huge mystery to everyone. Referring back to my example, if you have a master"s degree from a university, you work for the state government of North Carolina for 28 years, and you work full time in the health field; you get paid $7,000 per year more if you are man. What other conclusion can you imagine there being? Can you give a specific example where women working the same job with the same college degrees and for the same amount of hours and with the same amount of work experience at that job gets paid more than their men counterparts?
*sigh* You wrote: "There is almost nothing offensive with #womenagainstfeminism." To quote myself: "Almost everything they are against are attributes we are also against." The general message on their cards are "I am against feminism for false labels others have given feminists, but I am for the real feminist labels #womenagainstfeminism."
Feminists have strived for the rights to: an education, vote, work, birth control, have choice about abortion, be free from rape, fair wages and/or equal pay, own property, hold public office, enter into legal contracts, serve in the military, freedom to plan their families how they want, and freedom to not have children if they want. Not every woman and/or feminist is going to agree with everything that I have mentioned. Some may add to this list. Modern feminism is about protecting the rights we have and pursing the rights we don"t have. While we do have most of these rights in America, many women around the world do not. ICW, #heforshe, WfWI, and FEMEN are examples international feminist groups.
Also I didn't label you, so you don't need to sigh and act like i'm an ignorant person. The only thing mildly close was when I searched up the definition of Feminism, which I thought was a fair definition. Also the issue with Feminism focusing on women's rights does have truth to it, the whole point of Feminism is to make women equal to men. If there were any requirements for being a Feminist, advocating men's rights would not be one of them. A Feminists is someone who believes that women are oppressed or disadvantaged, so they advocate women getting the same rights as men.
"While some men get online d**th threats, they do not get them as often or with the content as horrible as the women who get them . Men, by in large, do not get online r*** threats." Where did you get that impression?
I immediately Googled this to see if you had a point, but I think you're exaggerating. (1)"Boys are more likely to be threatened by cyber bullies than girls." Granted, "Girls are at least as likely as boys to be cyber bullies or their victims" but that would mean they are just as likely, and you said it rarely happens to guys. Also, (2)"More girls are cyberbullies than boys (59% girls and 41% boys.)" Granted the statistics didn't always show the same results, so i'll show the other ones just to be fair to you.
(3)"The prevalence of having been bullied electronically was higher among females (22.1%) than male (10.8%) students."
(4) "Girls are about twice as likely as boys to be victims and perpetrators of cyberbullying."
I think this is pretty fitting statistics, because it shows that women are just as likely to do something like this as men. True equality goes both ways, good or bad. Not only this but this shows that even though men aren't as likely to be cyberbullied, it isn't the way you said it was. (Also I used teen cyberbullying statistics because I figured there would be the most reliable information on those types of websites.
I think it's funny and ironic when you talk about MRAs. When someone calls a Feminist something like a Feminazi you say that it's not true and they're just falsely labeling them. Then you do the same thing to MRA's by saying they are women-hating and that they are a**holes. You tell me that I am hypocritical, but there are times when you need to realize that you do the same thing.
Then you make the point that since most people care about women and not all, it validates your point. It does not. There will always be an opposition to any movement, no matter what. The day you find something that everyone in this world agrees with (and I mean everyone) then this would be a valid argument. A majority of the world is religious, and a lot of them are opposed to Atheism. Its the same the opposite way as well. If you deny this, then there is no doubt that your beliefs are so strong they have clouded your judgment.
On the matter of the pay gap, you didn't address the long list of factor I gave to you that could be the reasons why your mother was paid less. If you are not going to address my arguments then i'll have to assume you don't know how to respond without admitting that I might have a point.
As for your conclusion, I had stated in my argument that Feminism is outdated because a person doesn't need to be a Feminist in order to stand for those rights. Do you know what that indicates? It means that they already recognize that list as basic human rights, not Feminist issues. Modern Feminism doesn't need to be around for much longer, because older Feminism has done it's job: getting women recognized as equal people. Equal people get disadvantaged too, so it is the right of other equal people to make sure that human rights are established. It should never have been about men or women, it should have been about people.
Thank you for allowing your ideas to be questioned, and I hope you have more good arguments for me to try to refute.
Pro writes: "I never said that Feminism had anything to do with religion."
In round 2 Pro wrote:
"It really is kind of upsetting that you bring up something like that but don't even argue about the real sexism in the world, such as in third world countries. What about Muslim fathers who want to force their daughters to cover themselves even if they don't believe the same things he does?"
Pro wrote that Pro was upset that I did not connect Feminism to religion, so Pro connected them instead.
Pro writes: "The only time I mentioned religion is when I used the example that there are girls""
In round 2 Pro wrote:
"I am an Atheist and I've seen people misrepresent the idea ALL the time! I don't use it as a reason to be an Atheist, I use it as a reason to inform people and let them know that there is more to it than what they just assume. It really is kind of upsetting that you bring up something like that but don't even argue about the real sexism in the world, such as in third world countries. What about Muslim fathers who want to force their daughters to cover themselves even if they don't believe the same things he does?"
Pro then mention religion two more times in Round 3.
Pro writes: "Also I didn't label you, so you don't need to sigh and act like i'm an ignorant person."
Please take note that Pro was the one who brought up "ignorant". I believe Pro is not ignorant.
In round one, I try to explain that people give feminists false "labels, then arguing that these false labels are bad." In round 2, Pro quotes a youtuber "Feminism is the idea that we can make both sexes equal by focusing solely on the issues of one of them." This is a false label. Pro then argues this false label is bad.
Pro writes: "If there were any requirements for being a Feminist, advocating men's rights would not be one of them."
I addressed this in Round 2: "This just isn"t true. For example, a lot of men have started being the primary caregiver in their household. Breaking apart traditional gender stereotypes is important, especially for these men"s children." Pro agrees with me in round 3: "the whole point of Feminism is to make women equal to men." Equal rights. Equal opportunity.
Cyberbullying was first introduced by Pro in Round 3. I concede cyberbullying to Pro. If I had realized Pro was 15, I would not have brought up threats, revenge sites, or cell phone hacks. I hope Pro never has to experience these things.
Pro writes: "I think it's funny and ironic when you talk about MRAs. When someone calls a Feminist something like a Feminazi you say that it's not true and they're just falsely labeling them."
This is another example where someone makes a false claim, then argues that the false claim is bad. Some people are feminazis.
Pro writes: "Then you do the same thing to MRA's by saying they are women-hating and that they are a**holes."
First, I never wrote they were women-hating.
Once Pro has a MRA tell Pro to Pros face "a woman is the useless skin around the v*****", Pro may feel differently about them too. MRA"s actually believe that men are oppressed around the world and have been for many centuries, women are inferior because the Bible says so, violence against women is not significant, women earning less money than men is justified because women should only be working in kitchens making their men sandwiches, and women whine about everything. MRAs believe that the appropriate punishment for a man groping a woman in public is for the woman to slap the man .
Pro writes: "You tell me that I am hypocritical, but there are times when you need to realize that you do the same thing."
First, I would like to point out that I never wrote Pro was hypocritical. Truthful labels are not hypocritical. I have an issue with false labels. Calling a member of the MRA obtuse is an example of false labeling.
I"m not sure what Pro means by "Its the same the opposite way as well."
Pro writes: "On the matter of the pay gap, you didn't address the long list of factor I gave to you that could be the reasons why your mother was paid less."
Full time is 40 hours, M-F, without overtime. Both men and women only speak English. Master"s degree are post-college. While I have never asked my mom for the exact name of her Master"s degree, I suspect something like Masters of Public Nursing.
Feminist (n) means someone who advocates women"s rights . Someone being against feminists and for women"s rights (aka feminists) is silly. This almost a direct comparison to my comment regarding #womenagainstfeminism in Round 2.
I believe Pro has failed to prove that feminism is detrimental. Vote Con.
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