The Instigator
nevedarkwolf
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
Mikal
Con (against)
Winning
8 Points

Has the Final Fantasy franchise gotten worse over the years

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
Mikal
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/17/2014 Category: Games
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 957 times Debate No: 44185
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (6)
Votes (2)

 

nevedarkwolf

Pro

Final fantasy, at one point the highest selling game of its time, was one in a million. its free play and abundant amount of characters with all their own personalities was a beautiful step into a multimillion dollar franchise and millions of happy gamers. The new games full of concrete characters, limited free play, and hours upon hours of cut scenes, has rendered final fantasy, a shadow of her former glory.
Mikal

Con

I accept this and look forward to a great debate.
Debate Round No. 1
nevedarkwolf

Pro

My first approach will be the one that will be questioned by the business associates, how much money made for the games.
http://www.vgchartz.com...
This link will show a chart of different released final fantasy games and the profit made. Please note, that the titles released before 2001 hold the highest sales rates then those of now-a-days releases. As well as made more money and were sold at a lower price than today's 59.99-65.99 which gave more gamer's the ability to enjoy what final fantasy had to offer.
The next would be the critiques viewpoint.
http://www.wired.com... (new)
http://www.metacritic.com... (old)
The facts begin to add up as these well renounced critiques attack the new release finalfantasy compared to the almost godly admiration of such as final fantasy 7. One does not simply deny such numbers and it is almost a time of mourning at the fall of such a once magnificent tower of gaming has plummeted to only a 5.2 rating.
If anything fails in my previous statements, please read the following link.
http://www.destructoid.com...
The statements of this critique is of a professional and overall level that exploits the weaknesses of ff13. I do not accept responsibility for any syntax errors in his statements, but agree with his findings. Final Fantasy has lost her sword, her armor, and her materia. She is only a frail peasant of her past goddess.
Mikal

Con

This is a debate that I can take to heart. I am probably one of the biggest if not biggest final fantasy fan that I know. I have played them all from 1-14 and was/are extremely active in both 11 and 14(which I am still currently playing), which are MMOs.

The first detail I want to point out is the resolution of the debate.

"The Final Fantasy Franchise has gotten worse over the years"

This is a very vague resolution and can be addressed in many ways. The first issue we want to look at is the precise date of the decline. With my adversary claiming that the franchise "has gotten worse over the years", it could mean 1 was the best it has periodically decreased since. It could mean in the recent years. As most people would think it could mean since ff7 it has began to decline. FF7 was the midway point to the franchise and a revolutionary game in the MMO world. It set the tone for modern MMOs and paved the way for future MMOs to improve in graphics and game play. So lets break this down to some contentions

Perspective

What is worse is all in the eye of the beholder. To some people 12 or 13 could have been the best game ever made.
My adversary is making an argument for sales which is flawed in itself. Sales of a game do make up the entirety of the franchise. In reality most final fantasy fans have grown older and aged. At the time 7 was released I was a teenager, and now I am 25 with 14 just being released. I was a toddler when 1 was released. The cost deficit of the franchise could be very well explained by the fan base aging and growing out of the genre. Where they would have to succeed at is making the franchise appeal to an entire new generation which is not easy. This has always been true with the final fantasy series. It can pick up new fans but even with games like 11 and 14, most of the people whom play them are not new fans but people whom have stuck with the franchise since the early stages.

A franchise in decline.

This entire premise is flawed. When my adversary simply claims that it has gotten worse over the years, he never specifies dates to address.

Lets look a few things

The sales from FF1 for the snes were marked at .40 million [1]
The next thing I want to note is that over the years it drastically increased up until the point of FF7 which averaged 9.8 million[1] . This is where a sensible person would say it decreased from. Again as I have already pointed out 7 was a game that revolutionized final fantasy, and a majority of the people whom criticize the new games still tend to compare it to the old days. I even catch myself saying "this is not like 7" sometimes. 7 was a great game and provided great memories for all who played it, but it was the stellar point of the franchise. No game in the series has or will ever meet the mark that 7 made. It was the game to change not just final fantasy but MMO's all around.

Note that 8 sold 8.8 million, slightly below the mark of 7 with nine being right on the same margin around 9 million[1]. Both were also amazing games.

Ten was a 6.6 million +2 million that is not shown in this due to it being marketed heavily in other counties so it puts it around the same mark of 8.8-9 million. [1]

Now notice the slight decline 12 was around 5.2 million with x-2 being around 3 million. 13 reached back up to 6 million [1].

My adversary claiming a loss in revenue and constant decline in it is extremely false. To base the franchise strictly off revenue is impossible and clearly does not support the resolution. If we can see anything, it is that the sales of the games vary from game to game with 7 being the high mark of the franchise (which every game series will always have. Just out of sheer logic, there is always one game that will have the highest sales of a franchise even if it is a minuscule margin)


Rating

He claims the series has a 5.2 rating overall but lets take a look at the ign ratings for some of the recent games.

Ign rated 14 a 8.6 out of ten (or great rating) [2]
Ign also rated 13 an 8.9 out of ten (great rating )[3]

Actually if you go through and look and most of the games, almost all of them have marked over an 8 rating by all types of critics.

Being a overly in depth 14 player, I can also note that the game is amazing. It has a great story that is riddled with past images of 7 and old games such as ultimate weapon, bahamut, and all of the other ediloens we know and love.


In Closing

My adversary is guilty of what most oldschool fans are guilty of. He is comparing the franchise to the glory days of 7. While the franchise will never meet that one point it has not been on a steady decline as the resolution states. At most we can agree that is on a roller coaster ride. His resolution can not stand the test of facts and empirical evidence, and is solely based off of his personal opinion.

[1] http://vgsales.wikia.com...
[2] http://www.ign.com...
[3] http://www.ign.com...
Debate Round No. 2
nevedarkwolf

Pro

My contender has looked only at a very small portion of ratings, but not of those of the people. I understand the idea he tries to end with, as this being my own opinion, and I would at one point agree. but, if others agree with I am simply the one to reveal it. The proof is in the FAQ's, where the people get to speak.
http://www.gamefaqs.com...
http://www.1up.com...
I as my contender has enjoyed many of the final fantasy's, and has been with them through the years, but as sad to say the franchise has fallen. I have enjoyed being a voice for the people, and thank you for debating with me.
Mikal

Con

I am almost going to take this as a concession, but he claims I have only looked at a small portion of the ratings. Essentially my adversary is saying that almost everyone hates the franchise now, so lets see how true this is.

Lets look solely off of 14

Ign rating 8.6 [1]
Meta Critc 83 score or 4/5 [2]
Games Radar 4.5 out of 5 [3]

Lets look at gamestop, one of the most widely used game stores in the world. The user rating for ff14 a realm reborn (remember this is by the users and not the store), rate it a 7.3/10 which is still a very very solid score, seeing as how the same scores were given to 9 and 7. This is not a rpg community or mmo community rating the games in this instance, it is the entire user base of game stop. A 7.7 is a really high score of approval. [4]

In closing

I have shot down almost all of my adversary's arguments. He loves the idea and holds to the fact that the franchise is in decline. I again disagree, we can not say it is declining. We can only say it is on a roller coaster ride with highs and lows. FF14 was def a high point as well. The franchise is not getting periodically worse as of late but actually improving since the release of 13-2. We have much hope for the franchise in the future as well.

[1] http://www.ign.com...
[2] http://www.metacritic.com...
[3] http://www.gamesradar.com...
[4] http://www.gamestop.com...
Debate Round No. 3
6 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 6 records.
Posted by TUF 3 years ago
TUF
"FF has not gotten worse, the competition has just gotten better."

+1 to that. Though I personally don't think the competition is better, Society as a whole does.
Posted by TUF 3 years ago
TUF
"FF has not gotten worse, the competition has just gotten better."

+1 to that. Though I personally don't think the competition is better, Society as a whole does.
Posted by TUF 3 years ago
TUF
sorry for the double post, I don't know why it always does that to me.
Posted by TUF 3 years ago
TUF
RFD

Ultimately, this is a pretty clear cut decision. Con's best point, was of course the perspective point, which I believe to be true. Is the game itself changing for the worst? Maybe. But ultimately I think it is more with the generation. Society now has higher places with games that include modern warfare and zombies. The magic of final fantasy is definitely not lost on the fans who grew up loving it, but perspective ultimately is what hampers the game I think. in 97' there simply wasn't Call of Duty, or halo, and gamers were more diverse and open to the more fictional action/adventure specific games. Pro dropped most of this very essential argument in the debate, and Con took advantage of the obvious holes in the numbers provided by pro. I am not saying that the games have not declined, but I am saying that I don't feel like Pro focused his case around the more essential parts that go into trying to prove his point, and the impacts were hit perfectly by Con. Pro's S/G was bad, but it was legible enough. Con's support through using more reputable gaming websites like IGN made his sources more effective as well. In this RFD, the only thing that I feel is important though is the arguments point, and I have to say at the end of the debate I was more "convinced" by Con. While I don't think Pro intentionally was trying to skip out on responding, the lazy response definitely makes the debate seems as if its a concession as the crucial points of the debate were ignored.
Posted by TUF 3 years ago
TUF
RFD

Ultimately, this is a pretty clear cut decision. Con's best point, was of course the perspective point, which I believe to be true. Is the game itself changing for the worst? Maybe. But ultimately I think it is more with the generation. Society now has higher places with games that include modern warfare and zombies. The magic of final fantasy is definitely not lost on the fans who grew up loving it, but perspective ultimately is what hampers the game I think. in 97' there simply wasn't Call of Duty, or halo, and gamers were more diverse and open to the more fictional action/adventure specific games. Pro dropped most of this very essential argument in the debate, and Con took advantage of the obvious holes in the numbers provided by pro. I am not saying that the games have not declined, but I am saying that I don't feel like Pro focused his case around the more essential parts that go into trying to prove his point, and the impacts were hit perfectly by Con. Pro's S/G was bad, but it was legible enough. Con's support through using more reputable gaming websites like IGN made his sources more effective as well. In this RFD, the only thing that I feel is important though is the arguments point, and I have to say at the end of the debate I was more "convinced" by Con. While I don't think Pro intentionally was trying to skip out on responding, the lazy response definitely makes the debate seems as if its a concession as the crucial points of the debate were ignored.
Posted by TUF 3 years ago
TUF
The first problem I had with the pro"s case, was that in presenting statistics on sales, he doesn"t point out what I feel was the obvious point of "the longer the game is out, the more sales its going to get". Naturally the first games are going to have more sales, because they were introductory and a very cursory point of getting recognition for the franchise. Also, if you analyze the time gaps between the release of the games, you are looking at 4 or 5 years at a time. They obviously aren"t back to back, which is a good reason to question if that is actually an argument suggesting that game quality itself is the problem, or if those statistics are done again in 5 years, Final fantasy XIII-2 won"t have as many sales as the ones prior to it.There are also many different factors that can skew the complete accuracy of the results to the argument, one major one being the fact that many of the games are introduced on different systems. For example, Crisis Core was an awesome game, utterly amazing and one of my favorite games of all times. Every time I recommend it to people, they say "I don"t have a psp". That is probably the largest factor that messes with the statistics. Also I think citing that the games were cheaper back then, works against your point in trying to prove that low sales are the reason the games aren"t as good. I won"t say these statistics aren"t a complete indicator for this argument, because based on my own subjective knowledge of XIII-1&2"s gameplay, I can very easily see them being near the bottom. I am just saying that I don"t think this was really a strong argument in favor of the resolution without mentioning all the other factors that go into it.
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by Josh_b 3 years ago
Josh_b
nevedarkwolfMikalTied
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Total points awarded:05 
Reasons for voting decision: I honestly didn't think that I would be able to give points on anything other than argument. So, I checked the sources, 1UP.com has a considerable dissension toward game's low reviews. Most of Con's sources were fanbased ratings and I am going to give them more merit. Argument points for pro for actually discussing the whole franchise rather than one game in the franchise. 14 installations is nothing to scoff at. In the end, my opinion is that FF has not gotten worse, the competition has just gotten better.
Vote Placed by TUF 3 years ago
TUF
nevedarkwolfMikalTied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: RFD in comments.