The Instigator
McPherson
Pro (for)
Winning
8 Points
The Contender
greatman777
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points

Having a choice is not the same as being free

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
McPherson
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/30/2014 Category: Philosophy
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 640 times Debate No: 44941
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (2)
Votes (2)

 

McPherson

Pro

The negation will need to show how having or even making a choice is the same as being free.

Democrat or Republican. Target or Walmart or Sears or Fred Meyers. You can have as many choices as are available. Choice could be a fancy word in reality for dilemma. Everyday our lives are distracted by so many choices. Sometimes, or if you're like me, often, it can be hard to choose between competing ideas or goods or whatever. This is not freedom. This is a crisis.

By contrast - when I make music or deliver a speech or listen to music and knit - when I am in the mode of creation I feel alive and free. Freedom and creation may not be all that unrelated. I will posit that absent dilemma and in a state of creation - freedom is more substantially known and described.

THE ARGUMENT AGAINST THIS probably has to revolve somewhere around the will.
I imagine someone will say "creating music or paintings or speeches requires all forms of choices...dilemma's- so how can you say what you have said." Thats a good point but is not an argument. The will alone is separate from choice and freedom of its own being. If you choose to create something you will perform that entire act of freedom and inspiration arriving from that choice. The will performs its functions by knowledge and instinct and while it can be overrided in some aspect - it is merely the median between choosing and freedom.

I am not saying choice is bad and freedom is good. I am simply positing that they are different experiences...phenomena.
greatman777

Con

free"dom
G2;frēdəm/Submit
noun
1.
the power or right to act, speak, or think as one wants without hindrance or restraint.[1]

https://www.google.com...[1]

You can't "act or speak" without making the choice to do so. While will and choice are indeed two different things, you can't have one without the other.
Debate Round No. 1
McPherson

Pro

Thank you - I understand your argument.

Friend you gave a definition of freedom that is not that bad. I have no real problem with it except in the context of which you have grounded your objection.

You state that "You can't "act or speak" without making the choice to do so. While will and choice are indeed two different things, you can't have one without the other."

BUT I HAVE TWO THINGS TO SAY IN REPLY.

1. I already addressed the substance of this idea when I wrote "THE ARGUMENT AGAINST THIS probably has to revolve somewhere around the will.
I imagine someone will say "creating music or paintings or speeches requires all forms of choices...dilemma's- so how can you say what you have said." Thats a good point but is not an argument. The will alone is separate from choice and freedom of its own being. If you choose to create something you will perform that entire act of freedom and inspiration arriving from that choice. The will performs its functions by knowledge and instinct and while it can be overrided in some aspect - it is merely the median between choosing and freedom."

THIS POINT was about distinguising the difference between the will and the choice itself. The will is the arbitor of choice in the pursuit of freedom.

AGAIN CHOICE ISN'T BAD and FREEDOM IS GOOD. Both these concepts are harmonious with one another but to blend them absolutely flies in the face of the spontaneity of inspiration which leads me to:

POINT 2- You can know the "qualic" (experiential) difference between being free and making a choice. ASK ANY ARTIST - WHEN THEY'RE INSPIRED ITS LIKE MAGIC. This is freedom. Maybe they use the knowledge and methods and skill of already known and chosen matters but that is not the defining of the being free.

Ask any monk who has been in prison... lol or just the monastery. There are several monastic examples of extraordinary persons who, as a final choice - lay down their own choosings to superiors in their orders - yet in their deepest meditations - in their brewing, composing, painting, mosaicing, weaving, chanting, and occasionally laughing and recreating we see, in great detail, individuals who are absolutely free whether or not their choices are made for them.

Finally - if you know that "will" and "choice" are not even the same - on what basis do you merge these two autonomous concepts onto "freedom." In all friendliness I see no substantiated objection to my position.

Thank you.
greatman777

Con

greatman777 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 2
McPherson

Pro

If my good friend, the con, wishes to forfeit, I would ask him to simply reply with "Thank you" or any other brief statement so we can advance to the voting.
greatman777

Con

greatman777 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
2 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Posted by McPherson 3 years ago
McPherson
Be brave ;)
Posted by greatman777 3 years ago
greatman777
where's the forfeit button?
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by Ragnar 3 years ago
Ragnar
McPhersongreatman777Tied
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Total points awarded:40 
Reasons for voting decision: Conduct for forfeit. Argument was not quite understood by con, being free has many choices, but choices in themselves are not being free.
Vote Placed by Krazzy_Player 3 years ago
Krazzy_Player
McPhersongreatman777Tied
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Total points awarded:40 
Reasons for voting decision: FF