The Instigator
Natsu_Dragneel
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
andrewwii
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

Heimerdinger from League of Legends requires more skill than other champions.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 7/15/2014 Category: Games
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 997 times Debate No: 59010
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (20)
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Natsu_Dragneel

Pro

First debate and I honestly have no Idea how to do this. However, I find that shooting blindly into dark holes helps me learn.

Being a teenager full of angst gets awfully boring. In order to alleviate this boredom, I resort to these magical interactive pictures called "Video games". I have recently been playing a popular "moba" game called League of Legends. You have a variety of champions to control in order to destroy the enemy nexus by working together with your teammates. (most of them are extremely toxic due to the need to prove they are cool) I have been playing a champion called "Heimerdinger" lately. I have been cussed out and called an assortment of names due to playing a "cheap, overpowered" champion.
Most likely, the person to accept this will have played LOL. More importantly, he/she will have "laned" against a heimer. I wish you good luck in trying to prove that this champion lacks the need for skill. In order to clear things up, my point is that you cannot go willy nilly placing turrets and get a kill. You must aim with your mouse and move in a manner to secure a kill and escape with your life. (and your gold)

First round is for acceptance. (saw other people do this and it seems pretty smart-ish...kinda...idk why I'm doing it don't ask!)
andrewwii

Con

Hello. This is my first debate and thus please do not take my poor structuring into mind. I would like to first say that I myself am a somewhat proficient lol player. through my experiences of gaming, I have come across several heimendingers, I too have played heim several times. With intros aside I would like to pose the simple challenge of defining "skill" in this field. to me, one of the most important points is "last-hitting", the biggest obstacle faced when starting out. With heimendinger ones turrets automatically adjusts to shoot at the players target or the unit with the lowest health, the former being prioritised. Thus, I can say that heim does not require skill as theoretically, with proper zoning one should be able to obtain an adequate amount of Cs without putting much effort into doing so because assuming one keeps three turrets in the lane, the sheer attack speed of these turrets will be more than enough to Cs. Secondly, zoning. zoning is rather simple once one understands how to aim properly as a simple e w combo takes away about half of the opponents hp and is rather easy to pull off. if turrets are placed properly (a matter of reading a simple guide) zoning is easy as most match-ups cannot deal with turrets and having your opponent farming under turret is essentially winning the lane. more ambitious opponents may try to destroy one's turrets but here is where the e w combo comes in. when walking into
Debate Round No. 1
Natsu_Dragneel

Pro

1.Skill

What is skill? This is a question that will be asked and answered for as long as we shall live. In reference to League of Legends, I would argue that skill is extremely hard to define due the vast amount of possibilities. I would say a good start to definite skill on League of Legends is map awareness, predicting enemy movement, aiming skill shots, dodging skill shots, and vision control. Heimerdinger needs all of this. However, he can solo gank the jungler and other wandering enemy champions if he can predict their movement and control the vision of the area around.

2.Csing

Indeed, last hitting minions is an extremely important part of the game and it would be assumed that with the turrets that you would be able to get almost every CS in your lane. However, I have found that turrets make it harder to last hit minions. The reason for this is because the turrets are hitting the minions low enough for the other minions to steal it before I can use my slightly more damaging auto attack to secure the last hit. Heimerdingers turrets just keep attacking; they do not stop and wait to last hit for me. In addition, my auto attack is pretty slow compared to other mages such as Velkoz. I find that even late game, my turrets still fail to last hit by themselves.

3.Zoning.

Heimerdinger can be an extremely good at zoning out his enemy laning opponent. However, this is only as good as he has all of his turrets up. In addition, if he is not able to put down a turret without it being destroyed immediately, then he himself is zoned. I have found that Diana, Syndra, Xerath, and Gragas are good at counter zoning Heimerdinger. This is due to the long range AOE.

4.E and W combo.

Heimerdingers "Stun Grenade" is a slow moving AoE skill shot similar to Velkoz"s E, except Heimerdingers E is slower, and has a lower radius. On the other hand, it does apply a slow. Due to the nature of the "Stun Grenade", it can easily be countered by a high mobility champion such as Yasou or Ahri, or a player is able to predict me predicting where he is going. In addition, the W has a small casting time that makes it easy to dodge when the E does not land.

5.Destruction of those pesky turrets.

Enemy champions can easily bait the "Power shot" from the turrets and destroy them with minimal damage. In response to "more ambitious opponents may try to destroy one's turrets but here is where the e w combo comes in.", opponents may attempt to "bait" my stun. This would leave my beloved champion extremely open to aggression and/or a gank until it comes off of cool down.

6. Other stuff...

Lastly, Heimerdinger is EXTREMELY fragile. Most enemy mages can combo me out in 1-2 seconds.
With all of this in mind, I would have to predict which trick my opponent will try to pull on me and devise a way to exploit a weakness in their kit. In addition, I cannot afford to miss my skill shots due to the long cooldowns, while several other mages can afford to spam effortlessly. Such examples of this is Annie and Syndra. There are most likely more than that, but I think those two examples will give you an idea.

I'm scared to click send...I feel like I'm leaving something out... Either way, I wish you the best in this argument my worthy opponent.
andrewwii

Con

"In reference to League of Legends, I would argue that skill is extremely hard to define due the vast amount of possibilities. I would say a good start to definite skill on League of Legends is map awareness, predicting enemy movement, aiming skill shots, dodging skill shots, and vision control."
here I would agree but I would say that for heimendinger this is a lot easier. with turrets, heim is allowed to stand further away from his opponent, denying harass, showing that he requires less skill for dodging. For map awareness, it is pretty standard. You have the ability to place turrets in the bushes to act as wards should you feel your opponent has the capacity to immediately take down your turrets. they act as teemo shrooms which are extremely useful. Also, should you have the need to escape, they provide convenient damage to turn fights around. otherwise, vision control remains the same as most other champions. For predicting enemy movement and skill shots, it can be put into two situations, the first being against champions without a "dash" or a flash-like ability. against them, your grenade and rockets are not as important as you should rely on your turrets to deal damage while dealing with them once they "dash" to you. With the gap closed by the enemy, it should be a piece of cake landing your grenade as there will be less distance to cover and the enemy will have burnt his ability to escape the grenade. afterwards, you will have total rein over your opponent. Here, you only need to wait for them to try to engage the fight, vastly decreasing the amount of skill in laning.

"However, he can solo gank the jungler and other wandering enemy champions if he can predict their movement and control the vision of the area around."

Thanks for doing my job for me.

2.Csing

"Indeed, last hitting minions is an extremely important part of the game and it would be assumed that with the turrets that you would be able to get almost every CS in your lane. However, I have found that turrets make it harder to last hit minions. The reason for this is because the turrets are hitting the minions low enough for the other minions to steal it before I can use my slightly more damaging auto attack to secure the last hit. Heimerdingers turrets just keep attacking; they do not stop and wait to last hit for me. In addition, my auto attack is pretty slow compared to other mages such as Velkoz. I find that even late game, my turrets still fail to last hit by themselves."

Here, I will have to argue about your perspective on last hitting minions. Most of the time, turrets make csing a lot easier as it provides a constant stream of damage to mitigate any attempts to push minions to your turrets. instead, you could be pushing without the constant worry of ganks as you can watch from a safer distance as your turrets push for you. One thing that I must clear up for you is that turrets automatically aim towards the last targeted minion, granting superior attack speed in the form of pets doing damage without much need for mana. Granted that the player has a bit of common sense, he would aim at the minion with the least hp and seeing as I am arguing that heim requires minimal skill, newer players tend to continuously auto attack, thus the turrets provide more chance of actually getting the last hit. In your case, you claim that it is hard to last hit with your turrets dealing the constant damage only to have your cs stolen by minions. Given that you put effort in csing, might I suggest auto attacking minions while the are at a fifth of their health? here would be the optimum time to try to cs as provided that you have not stockpiled on ap, your damage is just a tick of damage away from killing the minion, compensating for other sources of damage. otherwise, a couple of ad runes will give you a lot more damage to cs without any skill at all, continuously auto attacking minions.


3.Zoning.

"Heimendinger can be an extremely good at zoning out his enemy laning opponent. However, this is only as good as he has all of his turrets up. In addition, if he is not able to put down a turret without it being destroyed immediately, then he himself is zoned. I have found that Diana, Syndra, Xerath, and Gragas are good at counter zoning Heimerdinger. This is due to the long range AOE."

Here, I have to comment that should the enemy possess aoe spells, placing turrets further away from one another should solve the problem. otherwise you can set up "base" at your main tower as this will ensure your safety due to the fact that your turrets make diving heim near impossible. Should the enemy NOT posses aoe, like ryze for instance, heim hard counters them, which proves my point to a greater extent.

4.E and W combo.

Heimerdingers "Stun Grenade" is a slow moving AoE skill shot similar to Velkoz"s E, except Heimerdingers E is slower, and has a lower radius. On the other hand, it does apply a slow. Due to the nature of the "Stun Grenade", it can easily be countered by a high mobility champion such as Yasou or Ahri, or a player is able to predict me predicting where he is going. In addition, the W has a small casting time that makes it easy to dodge when the E does not land.

here is where the game gets interesting. should one be inefficient at "skilll shotting", one can "bait" an opponent into engaging and the shorter distance between heim and the enemy should make e w comboing a breeze as there will be less time taken for the projectile to move.

5.Destruction of those pesky turrets.

Enemy champions can easily bait the "Power shot" from the turrets and destroy them with minimal damage. In response to "more ambitious opponents may try to destroy one's turrets but here is where the e w combo comes in.", opponents may attempt to "bait" my stun. This would leave my beloved champion extremely open to aggression and/or a gank until it comes off of cool down.

This comes down to experience or just reading a guide. From here you should learn that

6. Other stuff...

"Lastly, Heimerdinger is EXTREMELY fragile. Most enemy mages can combo me out in 1-2 seconds.
With all of this in mind, I would have to predict which trick my opponent will try to pull on me and devise a way to exploit a weakness in their kit. In addition, I cannot afford to miss my skill shots due to the long cooldowns, while several other mages can afford to spam effortlessly. Such examples of this is Annie and Syndra. There are most likely more than that, but I think those two examples will give you an idea."

Not really. they are similar to ziggs' skills and he is considered one of the best poking champions in lol. also, syndra and annie have much longer cooldowns on their ultimates than you, creating large gaps of time in which they remain vulnerable. it is similar to comparing veigar and orianna. Also, given that you are heimendinger, the core essential item to your kit is the zhongyas which grants invulnerability against the enemy. This grants more than enough leeway for you as your cooldowns will be shorter than the invulnerabilityu and the turrets should have chipped enough hp to turn the fight around.

"I'm scared to click send...I feel like I'm leaving something out... Either way, I wish you the best in this argument my worthy opponent."

Why, I am flattered.

source on champion attack speeds http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com...'_attack_speed
Debate Round No. 2
Natsu_Dragneel

Pro

Natsu_Dragneel forfeited this round.
andrewwii

Con

andrewwii forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
20 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Natsu_Dragneel 2 years ago
Natsu_Dragneel
Well darn, that is unfortunate for my first debate. I even had an argument for it all. However, I am at fault for not responding within the given time. I congratulate my opponent for his win despite the circumstances. On the other hand, I would like to point out that I found this comment, "Thanks for doing my job for me." to be extremely snotty. I hope you do not try that with other opponents because they would have used that to their advantage. If you think that the statement is beneficial, explain why it supports your cause instead of leaving it as is. The statement you were referring to was a statement of possibilities, because of the "can" and "if". If you are in a bush that is warded, you will die. If you walked past a ward to get to the bush, you will die. If the enemy knows what you are trying because you are MIA, you will die. If the jungler or wandering champion does not come, you will lose a lot of money and experience. Please hold some more respect in the future.
Good job with the argument!
In addition, I have no intention of going "pro" with a video game, such pursuits are 1. dangerous to my current pursuit and 2. hold high risk.
Posted by andrewwii 2 years ago
andrewwii
Alas im in SEA, where the top challengers eventually get into korean b5
Posted by Natsu_Dragneel 2 years ago
Natsu_Dragneel
Alas, I am NA!
Posted by andrewwii 2 years ago
andrewwii
which server do you play on? maybe we can settle this on the fields of justice! :D
Posted by Natsu_Dragneel 2 years ago
Natsu_Dragneel
xD, since this is my first debate as well, there is not much to back up what I am about to say. However, I think that you are just supposed to put "I accept" or something along that line. Either way, I will go along with the argument as is. Thanks for accepting! Good luck!
Posted by andrewwii 2 years ago
andrewwii
regardless, 1st round is acceptance. i accept.
Posted by andrewwii 2 years ago
andrewwii
Arrgh my argument was cut short. Sigh, it is hard to use the internet.
Posted by TrueScotsman 2 years ago
TrueScotsman
Change the resolution to Heimerdinger from League of Legends Requires More Skill Than All Other Champions, and I will accept this debate.

Clearly, Heimerdinger requires more skill than some champions.
Posted by Natsu_Dragneel 2 years ago
Natsu_Dragneel
Bwahahahah! Alas, I must tell a sad story. Once upon a time, I owned a computer that did not puke on itself. However, as time passed, it eventually died of old age. The time came to procure another computer. I was glad to have found such a fine piece of work. I found myself extremely disappointed, because I tried to play Smite for the first time. Indeed, it is true. I had an astonishing 6 FPS. If anyone out there has played Smite with low FPS, you will know exactly how impossible it really is. I cannot say I have played Smite, for each game I play ends in loss due to inability to see ANYFREAKINGTHING! On the other hand, I managed to get a kill with 1 and 4 combo with RA. He was taking a turret at half health. Other than that, I cannot say I have had the pleasure to play a game where I am not looking down at my puny champion....
Then I woke up and realized I was a Dragon Slayer mage.
Posted by pierre124 2 years ago
pierre124
Yeah guys league is good but I think that Herpdinger is not as good as that god from smite. (I played league for about 5 minutes) That god from smite is way better because of its turrets.
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