Debate Rounds (3)
Should I help people that don't respect me namely my brothers and parents. I don't feel that I should. If they ask me politely to do something for them like cutting there hair and if I am busy and if I say I cant I am doing something else, they would get angry and say why not, what are you doing. Once they here what I am doing they judge it and if it doesn't coincide with something they would do like mediating they would start arguing with me.
If I don't do something for them they would say, I thought your supposed to be spiritual and help people or they would say, it says in the bible that you are supposed to help people, even thou they are Christian and they never even read the bible. They try to pick on the things I am trying to learn and use it to their advantage.
I love helping people I don't know. My family think I should help my own brothers and sisters first and then help others. I love helping people I don't know because they don't hate me and I don't know what they have been through in there lives and how good of a person they are.
I just don't like helping people who hate me, don't respect me or my belief's and that are only asking my help just so they don't have to do things that they don't want to do.
I would rather HELP them if it had something to do with their health, psychology or relationships than just cutting their hair so they think that they look cool or good looking.
I am against helping people that don't like to listen to me and that see me as their servant. I hope someone enlightens me. Thank You!
"Respect: (noun) a feeling of admiring someone or something that is good, valuable, important, etc." 
From what you have contended--namely, that you should not have to help your siblings over something petty, i.e., cutting their hair, if they don't respect you--I must assert that you are not respecting them, because you are not holding them in the esteem that any human should be held in. Thus why should it be that they respect you, if you would not take the time from your life to help them with something, petty or not? You realize, I trust, that you could very well spend more time arguing, and, of course, that if you didn't fight, you might acquisition more respect than you currently have with them.
I realize, of course, that this may very well be their fault; it would be exceedingly presumptuous to believe otherwise. However, if one cannot rise above the foolish actions of others, but instead allow themselves to droop to their level, then are they not as at fault as the other? To use a rather clich" schoolyard example: if one boy swears and the other swears back, both are at fault, because their actions are mutually independent of any consequence rendered by the other.
Moving on to your counter-argument (instigated by them) against the argument of "you are religious; you religion says do good; thus you must do good." Really, a convoluted argument if one examines the Bible thoroughly, but for the sake of argument, let us assume--as you seem to imply--that the Bible does state that it is essential to help people.
Your counter-argument states that they're cherry-picking and that they too must follow the same rules and regulations, seeing as they are the same religion as you, that being Christian.
Even if they are cherry-picking, it is very much your duty as a believer in the text to disregard this, because you are obligated to follow the doctrines the text invests upon you; moreover, even if they are manipulating your beliefs, they are justified in doing so because they are your beliefs. They are not telling you what to do based on beliefs; they are telling you what your beliefs are.
On their requirement to follow the same rules and regulations as stated in Christianity:
On this I agree with you, partially; it is hypocritical of them to simply assert your beliefs on you and disregard their own. However, in not acting upon your beliefs because they will not act upon their own, you too become a hypocrite. Two wrongs do not make a right.
Transitioning into helping people you don't know, I think it rather immature--if I may--to insist that it's nice to help people you don't know, but not beneficiary or emotionally rewarding to endeavor in helping your family. I must contend that all people are equally deserving of help, for how is it fair to feed the beggar and not the brother? In this, the beggar has never shown you respect; your brother has disrespected you. Both have given you a total of no respect. So why is it you would help only the beggar? If I may infer so, I believe it is because you have come in astride a pedestal demanding respect be given before help be granted. You are under the grievous misapprehension that respect is a default in regards to it being above the respect given to a human by its own species. In numeral form, you believe everyone get's one respect and you also believe you should get an additional two. You can get this--but only if you help them.
Moving on to you prejudice against the regulations of helping someone ("I would rather HELP them if it had something to do with their health, psychology or relationships than just cutting their hair so they think that they look cool or good looking." ), I must point out the fact that in the grander scheme of this (that being of the entire universe), the lives of our greatest humans have retrospectively little impact. Thus it must be that all people help others in everything, because though it changes nothing, it will make us believe that things are getting better. It is perhaps a grand placebo.
I think I have contradicted any arguments posed by you to a suffice standard. Moving on to my own arguments . . .
Why do you require respect to help people?:
It's almost an infantile thing to require respect before you help someone. I mean, if someone is starving to death, do you demand they sing praises of your valor before you help them? Even if your time has more efficient means of allocation, would it not be immoral--even inhumane--not to pause with your life if you benefit another?
It seems almost childish that you must needs be recognized for your efforts; does the morality not go along the lines of do not act for reward of notice, but for reward of the knowledge that you helped?
What is the worth of respect?:
In all reality, what is respect worth? Nothing, except if used in rule. It cannot feed you, nor shelter you, nor provide you with homeostasis. Respect, I have found, is the tingling rendered in the stomach when our self-righteousness (or narcissism, depending on how you view it) is being fed. Respect is abstract, and a bad thing to have, if it means you will demand more before you help someone.
Have others every demanded respect of you before you helped them?:
Quite simply, is it not passing odd that you demand you be shown respect, yet you--undoubtedly at some point--did not show respect to someone who henceforth proceeded to help you anyway? Their ego was not offended, their morality was not jeopardized; they simply disregarded you act of disrespecting them as unimportant and helped you anyway, not for the reward of respect, but because it was the right thing to do.
If you disagree with any of my rebuttals or arguments, please contradict them, and please feel free to post arguments of your own. Glad we could debate!
-in truth, TryingAtLogic
I only use something simple like cutting hair as an example. I do respect aspects of them like their views and belief's but I don't how to respect them in certain things like the fact that they do not care if they run over an animal or someone's pet.
I think that they don't respect me because of what I care about or what I do. I coach people mostly on losing weight, quitting smoking, mediation, green energy and helping there pets become more happy. Its just this respect thing for people that don't like me has me scratching my head.
I still do things for them, but when I am doing it and they tell me to do it a certain way I find their way hard and for me and I can do it my way faster and with better quality.
Yes, you are very right about me and them arguing its just that is hard not argue when they are criticising me about something. Respecting their every wish without be a pushover and still having time to do the things I want to do I my live is a struggle for me. After all I am not a Zen Master. I am a 21 year old with a lot sill to learn from life.
You are certainly a wise person "if one cannot rise above the foolish actions of others, but instead allow themselves to droop to their level, then are they not as at fault as the other". That's what the Buddhist teachings are telling me. When I get caught up in an argument its hard not to allow yourself to drop to their level, all I try to do in an argument is see the persons view, why they think that and express my point so as help them see where I am coming from. When they don't care what I have to say and only care about there view that's what pisses me off.
On cherry picking:
Yes I agree with all that you have said on cherry picking, Thank you for helping me understand. However when it always happens I end up forgetting what my religion teaches and I become unconscious of what I am learning. Its there belief's as well and I just wish that they would do the same until I have developed the wings I need to fly on my own.
I am Christian but I can understand Buddhism much better and have been trying to live and learn Buddhism. I have been very busy with work and find it hard to find time to learn. When I was in collage I had lots of time to listen to Buddhist texts and learn going to and from collage on the bus, during free classes, and at break. During that time I never got into as much arguments as I do now. But I my defence it is usually when I am doing something on my own quietly that someone might say something negative to me I respond calmly then they increase their volume and I do the same an before you know it, its an argument. I am still trying.
I want to help my family but I just wish they would not expect my help when ever they ask and when I am busy I wish they could understand that I am not siting down waiting to be given order and not hate me for being busy with something.
I am going to REALLY exaggerate this but please bare with me, Its like as if Adolf Hitler or someone you don't like for what they do asks you to help them. Ok, my family is not that bad but its still feels weird. It feels weird helping people that have such hatred towards animals, spiritual people like Eckhart Tolle and Wayne Dyer, Buddhists and other things that they don't understand like brainwave entrainment and Qi Gong or yoga. I almost feel like if I am helping them I am one of them and that I am helping them be that way.
I will mediate on everything you have said and all the peoples comments so that I may better understand and learn and do better for others. Thank You!
I understand how tedious it could be to assist someone in something as minute as that, and from what I've read of you, it does seem like you could allocate your time in a much more productive fashion, if strictly from an ambitious, cynical view point. But one must realize that if we compare the difference, on a grander scale, of helping them with spiritual beliefs and cutting their hair, it is indistinguishably the same. It is only noticeable for the two parties involved--you and them. So essentially the question arises: Do you care about your happiness more than theirs?
I realize how monumentally frustrating it can to argue with a bigot. I myself have done it, and it takes every essence of your fiber not to break down and rip your hair out at their (frankly) stupidity. But it is imperative you remain patient. Two people screaming creates only two people screaming; one person screaming and one person reasoning creates two people reasoning. Let them yell, and wait until they're done, and then make a few quick, cutting statements and you'll find that even the surest of bigots is inclined to at least walk away contemplating.
On cherry picking:
I agree as well, so this point seems to be conceded by the both of us.
On a demanding family:
As before, I recognize that it can be hard to cope with a family as demanding as yours sounds. But it is again crucial that you recognize that helping them in either petty or prodigious things is unimportant except to the only two being helped. If you really, truly don't have the time to help them, then tell them so and if they insult you . . . well, let not the foolish bring forth foolishness in the wise. Also, I don't think you're helping them be as they are; in fact, I think in denying them you're helping them be as they are. I implore you to consider this:
You walk into a room cross and aggravated, and find the only person to help you is an elderly man, of perhaps seventy, whom you strongly disagree with. Yet you realize you will need his help, so you endure the damage to your pride and ask him for assistance. What do you think is more apt to change your views on his views--his assistance or his denial?
-in truth, TryingAtLogic
P.S. I don't mind extreme exaggerations, so long as the analogy is clear. Any logic should be applicable of the tense it was applied, and thus able to be successfully reapplied in another standard of that tense.
In regards to petty things
I care about there happiness as well as mine, however when I help them and see what they do everyday, I see that they are sill not happy. I am mostly happy as long as no one try's to control what makes me happy. I cant help but think that if they would at least listen to what I have to say about how I have helped myself then they could be one more step closer to non-suffering. It upset's me when they scoff at whatever I say without them even looking into, I almost feel that if they are going to ask me for help then they should at least listen to the person that is helping them and try to understand what they are saying.
I never ask for help without giving something in return. I help myself out, there are times that I could have used help but I don't like to disturb anyone and I sill get the job done I would not mind living of the land and finding my own food and making my own shelter. Going off the grid and living own my own. I find peace going into my forest in our land and practising my bush craft skills by myself. I think I am happy as long as no one is with me.
I completely understand what you are saying and what you are saying is something that I will have to work on.
Is there a way of making them understand that I have a life outside of what they see and that others can help or help them understand that there are some things one has to do one his/her own?
Is there a way of making them know what I am saying?
On a demanding family:
When there is times I cant help them they act like I have done something to them and then they store up a small bit of hate each time. I understand that I have to change but is doing one thing better than the other, should I help paint an old mans fence or cut my dads lawn? Or is it about doing both and planning and organizing time?
I understand what you said "I don't think you're helping them be as they are; in fact, I think in denying them you're helping them be as they are". I think you are talking about when I don't help them and they get aggravated so its best to help them so they wont get so upset, but should I do this forever?
Is there a way for me to stop them from getting so aggravated and upset when they ask me for my help but I cant help them?
Our debate as been very interesting and informative. Its been great to talk to someone as wise as you.
There Is a lot I still need to learn and practise, but I will think about all you have said and try to learn from it.
yours sincerely, Paul Young
In regards to petty things:
If some people don't appear to be interested in the help you have offered, then you have (generally) two options.
One: persist in helping them, and hope it becomes more interesting.
Two: give up.
It's generally based on a choice of principal.
You could always just establish a me-time/you-time schedule, based around the periods of the day you are busy and the periods of the day you aren't.
On a demanding family:
I find that I'm a very unorganized person, at least in regards to time. But I find that if I set out a clear guideline for the day, I'll go through it much quicker. This may be the best choice for you.
I think the best way to stop them from becoming aggravated is to help them, because in helping them, they're compelled to believe that your lifestyle choice is the right one because you become a role model. You must ensure, however, that they recognize that this is not directly charity; while you are ascertaining no monetary reward, they should show recognition to the fact that you are helping them, and in this, try to be more productive.
If you really, truly can't help them, my best advice would be to direct them to someone who can.
It's been a pleasure debating you, and it's always fun to see life through the eyes of another.
-thank you, gracias, merci, gratias, Austin "TryingAtLogic" G.
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