The Instigator
JayaJagannath
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
TrueScotsman
Con (against)
Winning
7 Points

Here is Practical Explanation about Next Life, Purpose of Human Life, philosophical/religious facts,

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
TrueScotsman
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 11/9/2013 Category: Philosophy
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,328 times Debate No: 40229
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (0)
Votes (1)

 

JayaJagannath

Pro

Here is Practical Explanation about Next Life, Purpose of Human Life, philosophical/religious facts, theories etc.
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Practical Explanation ( For Example ) :- `1st of all can you tell me every single seconds detail from that time when you born ?? ( i need every seconds detail ?? that what- what you have thought and done on every single second )

can you tell me every single detail of your `1 cheapest Minute Or your whole hour, day, week, month, year or your whole life ??

if you are not able to tell me about this life then what proof do you have that you didn't forget your past ? and that you will not forget this present life in the future ?

that is Fact that Supreme Lord Krishna exists but we posses no such intelligence to understand him.
there is also next life. and i already proved you that no scientist, no politician, no so-called intelligent man in this world is able to understand this Truth. cuz they are imagining. and you cannot imagine what is god, who is god, what is after life etc.
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for example :Your father existed before your birth. you cannot say that before your birth your father don,t exists.

So you have to ask from mother, "Who is my father?" And if she says, "This gentleman is your father," then it is all right. It is easy.
Otherwise, if you makes research, "Who is my father?" go on searching for life; you'll never find your father.

( now maybe...maybe you will say that i will search my father from D.N.A, or i will prove it by photo's, or many other thing's which i will get from my mother and prove it that who is my Real father.{ So you have to believe the authority. who is that authority ? she is your mother. you cannot claim of any photo's, D.N.A or many other things without authority ( or ur mother ).

if you will show D.N.A, photo's, and many other proofs from other women then your mother. then what is use of those proofs ??} )

same you have to follow real authority. "Whatever You have spoken, I accept it," Then there is no difficulty. And You are accepted by Devala, Narada, Vyasa, and You are speaking Yourself, and later on, all the acaryas have accepted. Then I'll follow.
I'll have to follow great personalities. The same reason mother says, this gentleman is my father. That's all. Finish business. Where is the necessity of making research? All authorities accept Krsna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. You accept it; then your searching after God is finished.

Why should you waste your time?
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all that is you need is to hear from authority ( same like mother ). and i heard this truth from authority " Srila Prabhupada " he is my spiritual master.
im not talking these all things from my own.
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in this world no `1 can be Peace full. this is all along Fact.

cuz we all are suffering in this world 4 Problems which are Disease, Old age, Death, and Birth after Birth.

tell me are you really happy ?? you can,t be happy if you will ignore these 4 main problem. then still you will be Forced by Nature.
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if you really want to be happy then follow these 6 Things which are No illicit sex, No gambling, No drugs ( No tea & coffee ), No meat-eating ( No onion & garlic's )

5th thing is whatever you eat `1st offer it to Supreme Lord Krishna. ( if you know it what is Guru parama-para then offer them food not direct Supreme Lord Krishna )

and 6th " Main Thing " is you have to Chant " hare krishna hare krishna krishna krishna hare hare hare rama hare rama rama rama hare hare ".
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If your not able to follow these 4 things no illicit sex, no gambling, no drugs, no meat-eating then don,t worry but chanting of this holy name ( Hare Krishna Maha-Mantra ) is very-very and very important.

Chant " hare krishna hare krishna krishna krishna hare hare hare rama hare rama rama rama hare hare " and be happy.

if you still don,t believe on me then chant any other name for 5 Min's and chant this holy name for 5 Min's and you will see effect. i promise you it works And chanting at least 16 rounds ( each round of 108 beads ) of the Hare Krishna maha-mantra daily.
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Here is no Question of Holy Books quotes, Personal Experiences, Faith or Belief. i accept that Sometimes Faith is also Blind. Here is already Practical explanation which already proved that every`1 else in this world is nothing more then Busy Foolish and totally idiot.
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Source(s):
every `1 is already Blind in this world and if you will follow another Blind then you both will fall in hole. so try to follow that person who have Spiritual Eyes who can Guide you on Actual Right Path. ( my Authority & Guide is my Spiritual Master " Srila Prabhupada " )
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if you want to see Actual Purpose of human life then see this link : ( www.asitis.com {Bookmark it })
read it complete. ( i promise only readers of this book that they { he/she } will get every single answer which they want to know about why im in this material world, who im, what will happen after this life, what is best thing which will make Human Life Perfect, and what is perfection of Human Life. ) purpose of human life is not to live like animal cuz every`1 at present time doing 4 thing which are sleeping, eating, sex & fear. purpose of human life is to become freed from Birth after birth, Old Age, Disease, and Death.
TrueScotsman

Con

Hello,

I would like to thank my opponent for starting this debate, though I must point out to the readers that this thus far does not appear to be a "normal" debate. It appears that Pro is promoting the worship of the the Hindu god Krishna, the eigth incarnation of Vishnu. My contention is that anyone reading this, or myself should in no way feel obliged to believe what Pro has presented.

Rebuttal #1:

In your first response you asked me to recall all of my past memories from birth, and if I am not able to tell him this he then asks, "then what proof do you have that you didn't forget your past? and that you will not forget this present life in the future?"

This is a common argument for the Hindu doctrine, or more properly the Punarjanma. This argument is refuted by these 3 points.

1. Memories are physical in nature. Nearly every lobe of the brain has some function relating to memory, but many of the specific structures of the brain, such as the Hippocampus, Amygdala and the Striatum lend toward our overall long-term, short-term and working memories.[1] Due to the fact that our memories are physical in nature, the fact that we cannot recall specific memories such as our birth (which is explained by the phenomenon of infantile amnesia)[2] or other specific moments, have a physiological explanation, not a spiritual one.
2. Reincarnation has the issue of the origin of life, and the origin of the universe. We have discovered through science that everything that exists has a beginning.[3] Due to this fact, there HAS to be a time where people did not exist and therefore refutes the notion that we have always existed, because there was a time where there was no material body for the Jiva(soul) to attach to.
3. Reincarnation also has the problem of increased populations. Over the course of Earth's history, populations of animals have at times dramatically increased and decreased. If reincarnation were to be consistent, there would have to be a steady number of Jivas, but instead we know that if this were true there would have to be new Jivas created all the time. So the question would be for my opponent, if Jivas are eternal and have a set amount... where are all of these people coming from?

Rebuttal #2:

My opponent then uses the analogy of a person being born who does not know who his father is, and subsequently believes who his father is based upon the testimony of his mother.

This argument has a fatal flaw. It appears my opponent in order for this argument to be substantial must exist in a universe where the possiblity of lying is excluded. This universe where I live in surely contains no exclusion, and my mother could have lied to me about my father, but her testimony can further be cooraborated by DNA evidence. However, we have no reason to doubt what our mother told us most of the time.

We DO have many reasons to doubt the "authority" of the men speaking on behalf of the gods of Hinduism, as the beliefs make no logical sense and contradict scientific knowledge.

Rebuttal #3:

Pro asserts that one cannot be happy in this world with the presence of "disease, old age, and birth after birth." This last problem is the Samsara in Hinduism, the cycle of rebirths that they hope to one day escape through the Moksha (the liberation). As I do not hold to his belief in reincarnation for the aforementinoed reasons I do not see this as a problem. However, Pro has lodged the assertion that happiness is not possible with such suffering as what we experience.

This of course is empirically falsifiable, as I sit here in my chair a happy man. Is that because I have not experienced immense suffering in my life? Absolutely not, I have seen great hardships and abuse through long portions of my life, but I have learned that happiness is not found in circumstances but in a change of attitude. This attitude does not involve ignoring the woes of the world, but rather embracing the world and lending a helping hand to those who also have suffered. Compassion and empathy are often the key to happiness and fulfillment.

Rebuttal #4:

My opponent then contends that true happiness is found in the following things.

1. Submission and obedience to the moral restraints of Krishna.
2. Offering whatever I eat to Krishna.
3. Chanting his name with the belief that it will somehow effect me.

What should be plain to see here is that these are faith based assertions, and the fact that we have 100 billion neurons in the brain demonstrates how ignorant we are of our unconscious physiological processes that could influence our experience in this regard. What to Pro might be ultimate happiness, could actually be the release of relaxing hormones in the brain due to how he has made his brain believe. These more plausible explanations would I suggest better represent why certain people practice these 3 things and feel happiness. Anything beyond this is as you mention towards the end. Blind faith.

Conclusion:

Unless you blindly accept the assertions of Pro, and believe in Krishna and the dogmas of Hinduism. Then I suggest you reject his assertions and vote Con. :)

Kindest Regards,
TrueScotsman

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org...
[2] http://en.wikipedia.org...
[3] http://en.wikipedia.org...

Debate Round No. 1
JayaJagannath

Pro

in answer to your Rebuttal #1: )

Intelligence has to do with the soul, not simply with the brain.

Take electricity, for example. Electricity moves between gross elements and through a gross wire. But the electricity itself -- it is not those elements, not that wire. It is subtle.
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you have written this link in Rebuttal #2: ( We DO have many reasons to doubt the "authority" of the men speaking on behalf of the gods of Hinduism, as the beliefs make no logical sense and contradict scientific knowledge. )
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all right for what you are waiting for ? why don't you define what is Conscious on the basics of your medical language or on scientific basics ? explain it now.

and the first step is to know the difference between a living body and a dead body. What is the difference?

and then next Question is Why a dead child born does not grow, does not change body? The body is a lump of matter. Analyze the body. Where is life?

explain about these points which i have written upside ^. go ahead and do it now.
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TrueScotsman

Con

Hello again,

Hope you are having a great Monday, and Veterans Day (if you live in America). And without further ado, let's begin the second round of rebuttals. :)

Rebuttal #1:

You said:

"Intelligence has to do with the soul, not simply with the brain.

Take electricity, for example. Electricity moves between gross elements and through a gross wire. But the electricity itself -- it is not those elements, not that wire. It is subtle."

As evidence for the first statement, you make the analogy of Electricity traveling along wires and gross elements, but noting that the electricity is not the wire or elements. This is ultimately the fallacy of the weak analogy. This is fallacious because the comparison of electricity and the soul is simply not strong enough.

Here is a definition of electricity:

electricity
n
1. (Physics / General Physics) any phenomenon associated with stationary or moving electrons, ions, or other charged particles[1]

Notice, that electricity is a phenomenon, which denotes that one can observe and perceive it, unlike the soul. Also, note that it is associated with electrons, ions and charged particles all of which are MATERIAL, and the soul by definition is immaterial.[2] Therefore, these strong differences cause the analogy to not hold up once inspected closesly.

What is ironic is that our nervous systems have chemical and ELECTRICAL synapses that orcastrate the vast voluntary and involuntary functions of the body. Electrcity (and chemicals), is the mechanism that fuels us and allows our body to function from one central unit, the brain.[3]

Rebuttal #2

You said:

"all right for what you are waiting for ? why don't you define what is Conscious on the basics of your medical language or on scientific basics ? explain it now."

From a scientific perspective there is much that we don't understand about consciousness, though there are many competing theories out there, one of which being that consciousness is an illusion. That our unconscious brain activity gives rise to this fluid conscious state, that is interpreted through our sensory organs and brain to produce our conscious experience.

For instance, have you ever had a morning where you didn't get enough sleep? Your conscious experience of the world the next morning was probably altered a great deal, as you probably felt a bit groggy and not as on point as usual. Or perhaps have you ever been hit in the head before to the point where you become unconscious? Or lastly, have you ever looked into optical illusions? These visual spectacles illustrate how our brain reinterprets our sensory input in order to make sense of it, and reveals the somewhat illusory and subjective world in which we live.

I point these three out as they reveal the physical nature of consciousness. If our brains do not get enough rest, they don't function properly. If the brain is damaged, consciousness may be lost. And the phenomenon that we witness is in fact reinterpreted by the brain.

However, let's suppose that I didn't know anything at all, or that you somehow disproved all of my arguments. Would your explanation be any better? In fact, the soul as consciousness explanation is a non-explanation as it doesn't explain anything that we observe, it merely blindly asserts on the basis of faith without any evidence. Arguments without evidence, may be dismissed without evidence.

You said:

"and the first step is to know the difference between a living body and a dead body. What is the difference?"

Well, one can easily observe that a dead body no longer has the capacity to interact with it's surroundings or grow, reproduce. It only changes because of the decomposition process. If you go in a bit deeper you can see that cellular reproduction and all other biological processes have ceased in a dead body, versus the living body.

You said:

"and then next Question is Why a dead child born does not grow, does not change body? The body is a lump of matter. Analyze the body. Where is life?"

I'm not sure where you are going with these questions, but they have perfectly clear scientific answers. One of the facts of life is death, it is the permanent cessation of vital activity within a cell, tissue, organs and organism. Cellular death is a common, necessary and healthy activity as the opposite is cancer. When organs (which are made up of tissue) fail, it can result in death of the entire organism.

Now you asked the question, "Where is life?" If you're asking me from a biological perspective, then what I have said thus far applies, however you would be in error if that's merely what I saw in the world. For instance, I do not look at the woman I love as a lump of matter. Is it true that she is a lump of matter in some sense? Yes. This of course ignores the fact that the composition does not necessarily define the whole. To me she is a beatiful and loving woman who I feel an incredibly deep connection to.

Concluding statements:

The large majority of my rebuttals from the first section of my argument have gone completely unaddressed thus far. If my opponent seeks to win this debate, I hope that he find the time to address those refutations that I made appropriately.

Kind Regards,
TrueScotsman

[1] http://www.thefreedictionary.com...
[2] http://www.merriam-webster.com...
[3] http://en.wikipedia.org...
Debate Round No. 2
JayaJagannath

Pro

in answer to your Rebuttal #1: now you are simply bluffing without explaining what is conscious in the basics of medical language or scientific basics. is this dry talking is your science ?

Intelligence has to do with the soul, not simply with the brain.

Take electricity, for example. Electricity moves between gross elements and through a gross wire. But the electricity itself -- it is not those elements, not that wire. It is subtle.
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( tell me did you ever seen how electricity works ? ) You cannot see this subtle thing directly; you can see it only when it interacts with something gross. But the subtle thing is independent and distinct from the gross things.
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( Even though gravitation does exist, we can't really see it. Modern science admits that. )
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According to the Vedas, the measurement of the soul within the body is one ten-thousandth part of the tip of a hair. This is very small; in fact, it is atomic. Yet because of that atomic spiritual energy, my body is working. Is it so difficult to understand? Suppose a man thinks himself very stout and strong. Why is he stout and strong? Only because within his body is a small spiritual spark. But as soon as the spiritual spark is gone, his body dies, and his strength and vigor become void. If scientists say that matter is the cause and origin of life, then let them bring just one dead man back to life by injecting him with chemicals. But this they cannot do.
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If you inject just one grain of deadly poison into someone, he immediately dies. No one can see the poison or how it acts. But the poison is acting nevertheless. In the same way, the Vedas say that because the minute particle called the soul is within the body, the whole body is working nicely. If I pinch myself, I immediately feel it, because I am conscious all over my skin. But as soon as the soul is absent, which is the case when my body dies, you can take this same skin and cut it and chop it, and no one will protest.
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Why is this simple thing so hard to understand? ls this not detecting spirit?
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in answer to your Rebuttal #2 Why a dead child born does not grow, does not change body? The body is a lump of matter. Analyze the body. Where is life?

This is the process. you cannot understand that because there is soul within the child, therefore child is becoming boy. As soon as there is no soul, the child does not become a boy. This simple philosophy you cannot understand, so what is your position? Now, this car is standing because there is no driver. Anyone can understand. Stand still. It will remain there for thousands of years unless a driver comes. Simple reason. But you are so rascal, you will not understand. So what is the use of talking with you ? Simply waste of time.
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Coclusion :- you are not even able to explain anything tangible or verifiable and you are the one who is claiming to have something more verifiable and tangible but i didn't seen one single line which you have explained in this entire conversation.

and it is an fools paradise and one Rascal Dog is motivated by another Rascal Dog not by any gentle man.

Con have fun in your fools paradise and don't worry im not envious with your fools paradise.
TrueScotsman

Con

Hello again,

After reading this last post from you, I would adjure you to remember the Hindu concept of Kshama. To have patience and compassion upon those who disagree with you. I respect that you disagree with me and have a deep passion about your beliefs of the human soul but I will not allow that disagreement to lead me to believe it's a waste of time to collaborate with you.

Rebuttal #1:

You said:

"now you are simply bluffing without explaining what is conscious in the basics of medical language or scientific basics. is this dry talking is your science ?"

I assure you that I have no intent to deceive you, and addressed your questions to the best of my ability with my limited time. I gave you one possible scientific explanation for consciousness and it's origin by appealling to three real life examples that you yourself may have experienced, and then drew on the implications of those experiences to learn what it means for how we understand consciousness.

I am not a neuroscientist and thus not equipped to speak confidently about the intracacies about the physical nature of consciousness. Just the layman's version, using experiences you and I can both be familiar with. :)

Rebuttal #2:

Your continued appeal to electricity and now gravity intrigues me. Is your argument simply built upon the idea that the soul like gravity and electricity is too small to be measured, yet true? My objection to this remark of course is that we understand that gravity is a force in nature and we absolutely know that electricity exists, we can see how they interact with physical objects as you pointed out correctly.

However, we cannot see how this atomic spiritual energy effects anything in the physical. In fact the very term atomic spiritual is an oxymoron as "spiritual" and "soul" both denote immaterial substances, not really, really small atomic particles.

A man is not strong because of some supernatural force, if this man does not eat for a week and obtain the physical sustainance that he requires then his strength will be greatly impaired. Why? Because we require at a cellular level energy supplied through oxygen, water and food to fuel our strength.

You have not provided any evidence for the following: That such an atomic spiritual energy exists and that man has a spiritual spark. Therefore, even if my argument is not valid as an explanation, there would be no reason to accept yours as a, "Practical Explanation about Next Life, Purpose of Human Life, philosophical/religious facts."

Also, the expectation for scientists to resurrect dead organisms by injecting chemicals is in my opinion a misguided expectation. Dead organisms have no capacity to interact with chemicals anymore, because all of the cellular processes has ceased.

Rebuttal #3:

You said:

"This is the process. you cannot understand that because there is soul within the child, therefore child is becoming boy. As soon as there is no soul, the child does not become a boy. This simple philosophy you cannot understand, so what is your position? Now, this car is standing because there is no driver. Anyone can understand. Stand still. It will remain there for thousands of years unless a driver comes. Simple reason. But you are so rascal, you will not understand. So what is the use of talking with you ? Simply waste of time."

Here my opponent continues to posit the Hindu version of the soul as the answer for why the child does not become a man. Notice that this explanation has no evidence provided at all, except by a faith based assumption. Science tells us that the boy is unconscious and dead because his normal biological processes at a cellular level have ceased. Hinduism (of Pro's understanding) says that is is because the spiritual spark left his body. One of these assertions cannot possibly be substantiated by evidence, and therefore I submit that such an assertion must be dismissed without evidence.

Concluding Statements:

You said:

"you are not even able to explain anything tangible or verifiable and you are the one who is claiming to have something more verifiable and tangible but i didn't seen one single line which you have explained in this entire conversation."

I may not have provided evidence do your liking, but I did my best to provide real life examples that help corraborate my scientific claims about the human body and consciousness. These observations may be refuted if you are able to disprove the clearly falsifiable claims I made about what happens to our mind when we 1) lose sleep, 2) receive head trama, and 3) look at optical illusions.

Pro never clearly stated what he was promoting here, but as I have pointed out before this is a type of religious evangelism for the religion of Hindu and the worship of Krishna. I have thus set out as Con to demonstrate how this worldview is not, based upon the arguments of Pro, a practical or helpful explanation/philosophy of the world.

Kindest Regards,
TrueScotsman

Debate Round No. 3
No comments have been posted on this debate.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by AndrewB686 3 years ago
AndrewB686
JayaJagannathTrueScotsmanTied
Agreed with before the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Agreed with after the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:-Vote Checkmark-2 points
Total points awarded:07 
Reasons for voting decision: Absurd debate on behalf of pro. No conduct whatsoever, produced no stipulations but instead rushed straight into the discussion without defining any terms or respectfully acknowledging his opponent in any manner. S&G was horrendous on the part of pro. Arguments...do not need to go there, clear winner. Con had sources, pro made blind assertions based entirely on faith, clear winner and clear loser in this debate.