The Instigator
StephenAlsop
Pro (for)
Losing
22 Points
The Contender
ToastOfDestiny
Con (against)
Winning
40 Points

High School Students Ought Not Be Required to Take Exit Exams

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 10 votes the winner is...
ToastOfDestiny
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 11/14/2009 Category: Education
Updated: 7 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 4,318 times Debate No: 10119
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (15)
Votes (10)

 

StephenAlsop

Pro

First I Would like to thank my opponent without him this debate would not be possible.

Second i would like to restate the resolution that High School Students Ought Not Be Required to Take Exit Exams Which i would define as High School Students Ought not (ought not meaning that they should not have to)Be Required(be required meaning be forced to) Take Exit Exams( As in The tests you must take to graduate)

There are three main topics i would like to discuss during this debate First Being the social standpoint, Second being the economical standpoint, And third being the moral standpoint.

My first topic is the social standpoint is followed by two sub-points the first being that with more people graduating from high school sooner we will have a stronger community. My second sub-point is that with more people going on to higher education we can finally be back on top of the world power.

Second is my economical stand point once more people go to college the whole thing kind of snowballs because with more people i college and more education there will be more technology being discovered and mass produced which will raise the amount of money in the United States. Second is that with more people going to higher education they will be able to cope with the rise in technology and with technology on an exponential rise this is essential.

My third standpoint is the moral standard of these tests My first sub point in this standard is that i personally have troubled times taking tests and i have failed them several times even though i have a 3.8. My second Sub-point is that people who come from different countries and lack the ability to speak the English language will inevitably fail
ToastOfDestiny

Con

This is going to be a brief 2,000 character debate, and I shall have to forego pleasantries. I'll fit right in with my opponent's framework

A) Economy
There is a huge problem with the economy right now, as the Winston Educational Group writes "[A] new base of skills are required for the workforce. In the last 10 years over 3 million manufacturing jobs were lost while 15 million service sector jobs were created. These new jobs required basic math and English levels that were found to be lacking in many American high school graduates." The fact is that the current system cannot satisfy the economy and this has led to a lot of grief for the U.S. When we just rubber-stamp people through we only end up with an incompetent workforce.

B) Moral (no offense intended)
The fact that my Pro has a 3.8 but still cannot pass an exit exam actually shows us the problems that we're facing. His 3.8 should imply an inherent academic ability, but in reality, they are a result of the phenomenon known as grade inflation. Right now, GPAs are being artificially increased by teachers who pass students far too easily and students who take light courseloads.

C) Accountability
Exit exams include the accountability that we need to solve today's problems. It is only when we introduce SEEs and ensure that students have the necessary abilities to survive in the market that we can ensure our social and economic survival. The U.S. cannot remain a major world power unless we properly educate and empower our workforce. By holding those back who should not yet graduate, SEEs ensure that we have an able workforce.
Debate Round No. 1
StephenAlsop

Pro

Now first i would like to refute what my opponent has stated and then move on to explaining what i meant.

Now first he stated that the work force is bad for those who cant learn English it is not like these people that don't speak english are cattle they are intelligent human beings not incompetent work force.

Second my opponent stated that my 3.8 just showed that i am incompetent as well due to lack of work load i have to do about 3 hours of homework a day and the reason why i failed the exam is because i was rushed they give short periods of time I could not preform under these short periods of time.

Last my opponent stated that exit exams only account for what the student learned. How can you judge what someone has learned over four years of school based on how well i do when crammed with 1000 kids in a gym and told to fill in bubbles. This is not a test of my skill this is an efficient way to pressure kids. My opponent also stated that the SEEs ensure that we have an able workforce. This is none the less a misguided and pointless statement these SEEs are used so colleges can root out who they what they want. I work at a Fred Meyers and i know they didn't look at my exit exams they looked at my GPA and my speech and debate and football background

If you want to say that this test is important for the workforce then why did my employer find my football background more important?!?! Obviously my opponent is not aware of any of the hidden issues in our contemporary society such as the fact that the work force is incompetent for a reason not because they cant speak English but because they lack the motivation to work.

To sum my opponent is obviously has not refuted any of my points i would like to point out to him that it would be abuse to bring them up in his next post.

Because my opponent has not refuted my points and i have refuted his i move for a strong vote in the affirmation of this resolution.
ToastOfDestiny

Con

A) Economy
Pro only makes a weak analytic claim to go against my evidence. The fact is that students can just coast through high school without having to actually learn anything. He then completely strawmans my argument. You can extend through the Hart card because he really doesn't attack the actual card. This is going to become crucial later on.

B) Moral (again, no offense)
Pro again proves my point. Despite the fact that he apparently did 3 hours of homework a day and had a 3.8 he failed what I assume to be a minimum competency SEE. This points out the glaring problem in the U.S. education system. If Pro could not perform in 'short' periods of time (often ~30 mins) then he is definitely going to have problems performing under pressure in the job market.

C) Accountability
While I agree the conditions that Pro's SEE were administered under were atrocious, I'm not in support of that specific system. Instead, we should model our SEEs after nations with successful education systems. Ireland is a stunning example of a strong education system backed up by free response, critical thinking tests:

English:
http://www.examinations.ie...
http://www.examinations.ie...

Math:
http://www.examinations.ie...
http://www.examinations.ie...

As for Pro's employment at Fred Myers, this again illustrates the problems we have today. While Fred Myers may have picked a strong employee with Pro, they are essentially playing Russian roulette - they have no truly objective way of hiring people. Thus an all-purpose store is forced to turn to such irrelevant details as sports involvement. If we implement a strong SEE then both colleges and employers would know that graduates absolutely have the skills they need.

I'll turn it to Pro for his last speech.
Debate Round No. 2
StephenAlsop

Pro

Again my Opponent doesnt understand what i am saying
First i will refute his then strenghthen the points i have made as we are moving into the rebuttle we may not bring up new topics. What i stated is that in the test room you are rushed and forced to look through your brain with nothing but a number two pencil a question and four bubbles this may sound easy but doing it is a different matter. The fact that i do three hours of homework a day and have a 3.8 do not prove that the test is a good thing and that it weeds out the people unable to judge quickly. Then he states that besides the fact that i did bad on the test that fred meyers made the smart choice in hiring me this is completely contridicting himself. What i am saying is this test is pointless and you can not judge a person based on this complete waste of time this is why my employer didint look at it. The fact that football showed teamwork was more important to them!

The framers intent here is not to change the test but to remove it so what if irelands system is doing better. These tests have been around for a long time and still there is no real improvement its just a waste of goverment time and money. The tests my opponent showed has hand writen questions more government time and money! THE ABILITY TO FILL IN A BUBBLE IS NOT SHOWING ANY ADVANCED QUALITIES SUCH AS LEADERSHIP OR TEAMWORK!! THERE FOR EMPLOYERS DONT LOOK AT IT!!
Last i would like to finish with restating my points that
1)Our sociaty will be a stronger smarter and more wealthy
2) Our econemy will rise do to increases in technology and sales overseas
3) Our american dream that so many immagrated to america for will be saved and people who migrate here from all corners of the world weither poor or rich, religously prossicuted or faced with starvation will be able to have the same rights as every other american this includes schooling.
For these reasons and becuse my opponets case is Weak and Flawed Vote Affermation of this resolution!
ToastOfDestiny

Con

Regrettably, my opponent completely misunderstands my entire argument. I'll address his last speech claim by claim.

"in the test room you are rushed and forced to look through your brain"
First, this is something you have to do in life. Second, tests are SUPPOSED to make you look through your brain. Third, the Neg is upholding free-response SEEs here.

"this is completely contridicting himself"
I was saying that Fred Myers may have lucked out. Without an SEE they can only guess as to what your academic qualifications are.

"The framers[sic] intent here is not to change the test but to remove it"
This is a huge drop by Pro. He completely glides by my example of a good exam, instead dropping red herrings and building straw men. He says nothing against the kind of exams that we ought to have, only the current ones.

"THE ABILITY TO FILL IN A BUBBLE IS NOT SHOWING ANY ADVANCED QUALITIES"
First, it shows the ability to discern the right answer. Second, a free response, critical thinking test shows the ability to think independently, synthesize an answer, and connect high-level topics.

"1)Our sociaty[sic] will be a stronger smarter and more wealthy"
Actually, it won't. Remember my Winston Group card? It clearly showed that the problem with our society today is a lack of ability that can be solved with exit exams. We are currently not 'smart' enough, but the accountability provided by SEEs can get us there.

"2) Our econemy[sic] will rise"
As shown by the Winston Group card, our economy won't rise unless we strengthen the educational system.

"3) [American dream]"
First, this is a new point. Second, a major part of the American dream is a good education, which we achieve on the Neg.

This round comes down to the fact that Pro dropped the Winston Group card, and has dropped the Irish tests. The impacts he tries to link to are actually ones that occur on the Neg, and thus I urge you to negate this resolution.

Thank you =).
Debate Round No. 3
15 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by ournamestoolong 7 years ago
ournamestoolong
Before/After Debate: CON, Exit exams help weed out bad students.

Conduct: TIE, both ides were fairly civil

Spelling/Grammar: CON, Pro had many, many errors.

Arguments: CON, Pro failed to adress his opponents points or reinforce his own.

Reliable sources: CON, Con had sources.
Posted by KRFournier 7 years ago
KRFournier
Conduct - Tie - Both sides exhibited good debate conduct.

Spelling and Grammar - Con - Pro had numerous omissions of punctuation and capitalization.

Convincing Argument - Con - On balance, Con offered more objective support for his case whereas Pro argued too much from personal experience. It's clear Pro doesn't like these tests, but I need more than his bad experiences to be convinced that these tests are morally wrong.

Sources - Con - Con was the only one to even attempt to offer supporting resources.
Posted by StephenAlsop 7 years ago
StephenAlsop
my oppponent failed to refute my points right
i did refute his irish tests by pointing out that they have hand writen answers which takes more govenrnment time and money
Posted by ToastOfDestiny 7 years ago
ToastOfDestiny
Oh c'mon. +7?
Posted by ToastOfDestiny 7 years ago
ToastOfDestiny
It was kinda tough to source when there were only 2,000 characters, but I did toss one in R1.

RFD:
C: Tied; I would like to go Con here, but I won't.
S/G: Con; easy decision.
A: Con; Pro dropped many arguments and failed to refute Con's.
S: Con; Winston Educational Group card.
Posted by daniel_t 7 years ago
daniel_t
Sources would have been nice for this debate. I think focusing on Pro's personal GPA and test taking ability was a fail for both participants.
Posted by StephenAlsop 7 years ago
StephenAlsop
But its true
Posted by Xer 7 years ago
Xer
Cody's comment is win.
Posted by studentathletechristian8 7 years ago
studentathletechristian8
Stephen is an arrogant little truffle. Show some respect. You've already lost the conduct and s/g points.
Posted by ToastOfDestiny 7 years ago
ToastOfDestiny
"To sum my opponent is obviously has not refuted any of my points i would like to point out to him that it would be abuse to bring them up in his next post." <--this is kind of ridiculous.
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