The Instigator
Stupidape
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
Akhenaten
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

High-carb diets are ideal for health.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 11/8/2015 Category: Health
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,368 times Debate No: 82245
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (1)
Votes (0)

 

Stupidape

Pro

Resolution: High-carb diets are ideal for health.

I pro will contend for the resolution.
Con against the resolution.

Carb means carbohydrates. This doesn't mean high carbohydrates diets automatically result in good health. Ex. a diet of all HFCS (high fructose corn cyrup).

Sample high carb diet. Fruit in the morning, oatmeal for lunch, and a veggie platter with a huge salad for dinner.
Akhenaten

Con

The world governments ran a campaign in the late 70's which was based on false or bogus research. A small group of unhealthy males were surveyed to find out what they were eating. No females were included in this research. It was found that these people had diets which were high in fat. It was concluded from this small sample of unhealthy males that fat was dangerous to your health. Thus, began a huge campaign of advertising to stop people from eating too much meat and fat. This caused a reduction in meat consumption of about 30%. This was followed by an increase in carbohydrate consumption of 30% to replace the meat and fat.

Since this was fist introduced there has been an increase in sugar diabetes of around 30%. The human gut and teeth are designed for an omnivorous diet of fruit, nuts, meat and vegetables. Grains require a crop in the throat to properly digest them. Humans don't have a crop in their throats to digest grains, so they should stay awayfrom these foods because they are unnatural and cause health problems such as obesity, sugar diabetes, allergies, colds, flu, arthritis, heart attack, stroke and many other problems which are too numerous to mention.

http://www.google.com.au...
Debate Round No. 1
Stupidape

Pro

Outline

I. Benefits of vegetables and fruits.
II. Benefits of antioxidants and fiber
III. Detrimental health affects of meat consumption.
IV. Consequences of over-nutrition including cholesterol, fat, saturated fat, and animal protein.
V. Rebuttal of Con
VI. Links

I. Benefits of fruits and vegetables.

Its common knowledge that fruits and vegetables are good for you. Antioxidants, fiber, phytonutrients, vitamins, and minerals. Let's first make sure everyone knows the difference between a macro nutrients and micro nutrients. Macro are the ones that have calories, carbs, fats, and proteins. Micro are vitamin and minerals.

"The major nutrients-protein, carbohydrate, and fat-provide the body with energy."[1]

"Nutritionists call vitamins and minerals "micronutrients" to distinguish them from the macronutrients such as proteins, carbohydrates, and fats that make up the bulk of our food. "[2]

"But when you eat or drink phytonutrients, they may help prevent disease and keep your body working properly."[3]

Now if you search kale nutrition on the internet you will find kale has an amazing amount of micronutrients and kale's main macronutrient is carbohydrates. Kale's calories come from 72% carbohydrates. Nutritiondata gives kale a five star rating. [4]

Collards are 68% carbohydrates and again has a five star rating. [5] Admittedly you could still have kale and collards and eat low-carb if the rest of your food was low-carb. Yet, some of the healthiest food on the planet is high carbohydrates.

I haven't defined what constitutes a high carb diet. Since there are only three macronutrients, let's assume a range between 67% and 85% carbohydrates.

II. Benefits of antioxidants and fiber

Beta-carotene, an antioxidant is only found in fruits and vegetables. Fruits and vegetables are high in carbohydrates, which I've already proven with kale and collards.

"Beta-carotene has been best studied since, in most countries it is the most common carotenoid in fruits and vegetables. "[6]

" Epidemiologic studies have shown an inverse relationship between presence of various cancers and dietary carotenoids or blood carotenoid levels." [6]

I have proven that beta-carotene is only found in vegetables and fruit and that beta-carotene is beneficial.

"Individuals with high intakes of dietary fiber appear to be at significantly lower risk for developing coronary heart disease, stroke, hypertension, diabetes, obesity, and certain gastrointestinal diseases. Increasing fiber intake lowers blood pressure and serum cholesterol levels." [7]

I have now proven that fiber is beneficial. Fiber is found in many high carbohydrate foods including fruits and vegetables.

III. Detrimental health affects of meat consumption.

Low carbohydrate foods like meat and dairy have no fiber. As you can see from the factsecret link whole milk has no fiber. [8] A beef sirloin steak has no fiber. [9] By eating meat and dairy which are high in fat and protein, while being low in carbs you are displacing high carb foods that contain high amounts of beta-carotene antioxidants, phytonutrients, vitamins. minerals and fiber.

Not only that but low-carb foods like meat and dairy are high in fat, saturated fat, and cholesterol. Excess animal protein generates IGF-1. "For years we didn"t know why eating a plant-based diet appeared to so dramatically improve cancer defenses within just a matter of weeks. But researchers recently figured it out: eating healthy lowers the level of the cancer promoting growth hormone IGF-1. " [9]

"Even vegans eating the same amount of protein as meateaters still had lower levels of the IGF-1, so it"s apparently not about excessive protein in general, but about animal protein in particular. "[9]

"High cholesterol is one of the major controllable risk factors for coronary heart disease, heart attack and stroke. " [10]

"
Intramyocellular lipid content is lower with a low-fat diet than with high-fat diets" [11]

"Insulin resistance has been associated with the accumulation of fat within skeletal muscle fibers as intramyocellular lipid" [12]

"Limiting the amount of saturated fats you eat to less than 7 percent of your total daily calories. That means if you need about 2,000 calories a day, less than 140 calories (or 16 grams) should come from saturated fats." [12].

I have now proven that excess fat, saturated fat, cholesterol, and animal protein are detrimental to health. Since these are found so often in low-carb foods, and low carb foods displace fiber, phytonutrients, vitamins, minerals and antioxidants I conclude that low-carb diets are unhealthy.

V. Rebuttal of Con

I'm pretty sure this was con's link. Authoritynutrition.com

In your link "2. Consumption of Soda and Fruit Juice Has Increased Dramatically" [13]

Yes, it has and neither is soda and fruit juice healthy for you as explained in this tedvideo by Christina Warinner. Soda and fruit juice are unhealthy because the food is not fresh and the calories are too tightly packed in. [14] Soda and fruit juice are unhealthy for reasons other than just simply containing carbohydrates. High-carbohydrates is a confounding factor. Just as criminals wearing shirts or eating bread doesn't mean all people who wear shirts or eat bread are criminals.

As for Con's argument. The first paragraph is just one large bare assertion. No outside sources nor quotes.

"This caused a reduction in meat consumption of about 30%. This was followed by an increase in carbohydrate consumption of 30% to replace the meat and fat." Con

Let's assume this is true. The carbohydrates were most likely replaced with soda and fruit juice which I've shown above to have negative health effects for reasons other than containing carbohydrates. Based on the evidence I supplied about antioxidants, phytonutrients, and fiber that if the 30% carbohydrate consumption would have been whole fruit and vegetables health would have surely increased.

"Since this was fist introduced there has been an increase in sugar diabetes of around 30%. " Con

Meat also causes diabetes through excess fat. The excess fat is linked to higher IMCL (intramyocellular lipids). High IMCL content is linked with insulin resistance. As seen above in my argument.

"The human gut and teeth are designed for an omnivorous diet of fruit, nuts, meat and vegetables." Con

Bare assertion and Warinner disagrees. "She begins by stating: "human has no known anatomical, physiological, or genetic adaptations to meat consumption". " [15].

"Grains require a crop in the throat to properly digest them." Con

There are primitive stone tools called a mortar and pestle to grind them. See the video [14].

"cause health problems such as obesity, sugar diabetes, allergies, colds, flu, arthritis, heart attack, stroke and many other problems which are too numerous to mention." Con

Bare assertion. The only cases where I've seen a correlation between grain intake and disease is in the China Study. [16] This is due to a confounding factor that dietary vegetables are decreased. This data means that vegetables are healthier than grains. Not that grains cause disease.

"

"Higher wheat flour consumption, for example, is correlated, as univariate correlations, with
lower green vegetable consumption (many of these people live in northern, arid regions where they often consume meat based diets with little no consumption of vegetables)." [16].

In conclusion, eat your fruit and veggies. :) The increase in beta-carotene antioxidants, fiber, phytonutrients, minerals, and vitamins while avoiding high levels of fat, saturated fat, cholesterol, and animal protein will do your body wonders. Finally, wild animals caught in the paleolithic era were lean in sharp contrast with factory farm animals. ""human has no known anatomical, physiological, or genetic adaptations to meat consumption"." [15]. Thanks for the read.

High-carb diets are ideal for health. Vote Pro.

VI. Links

http://www.webmd.com...
http://www.webmd.com...
http://www.webmd.com...
http://nutritiondata.self.com...
http://nutritiondata.self.com...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...
http://www.fatsecret.com...
http://www.fatsecret.com...
http://nutritionfacts.org...
http://www.heart.org...
http://ajcn.nutrition.org...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...
http://www.heart.org...
http://authoritynutrition.com...
http://tedxtalks.ted.com...
http://www.paleostyle.com...
http://www.vegsource.com...
Akhenaten

Con

My opponent has continued in his usual style and mostly ignored my comments until the very last when we makes a few brief comments. Yet, he still managed to avoid mentioning anything about the government anti-fat campaign which occurred in the late 1970's. The graph that was shown on my reference, clearly demonstrates that since about 1970, there has been an large increase in obesity and diabetes. This can be squarely blamed on the world government's and their anti-fat/protein campaign of the late 1970's.

The food pyramid that was produced by the government in the 1970's is the biggest health disaster in the history of mankind. It has led to more health problems and disease than the worlds hospitals can handle.

http://curaromana.com...

http://www.abc.net.au...

Humans are omnivores.

On one hand, the teeth in our skull include both cutting incisors (as found in carnivores) and grinding molars (as found in herbivores). This combination makes us flexible omnivores. On the other hand, the timing of what happens to food puts paid to this claim that meat does not get digested. The human gut has all the enzymes needed to digest meat.
The human gut is some 10 metres long. The food enters at your mouth where you chew it, and where your saliva adds a few digestive enzymes. Then, after transit via the oesophagus, this food ends up in the stomach. In the stomach, the enzyme (called pepsin) attacks the proteins in meat. It breaks down the long chains of amino acids into smaller chains.

Typically, the food will stay in the stomach for between one half an hour and two and a half hours, before moving on to the next section, the small intestine. But the pepsin acting in the stomach digests only about 15 per cent of the protein.
The small intestine does most of the digestion and absorption of what we eat. It takes some two to six hours to do so.
In the small intestine, the pancreas pumps out various enzymes that break down the small chains of amino acids into even smaller chains.

The cells lining the gut have microscopic fingers on them called microvilli. The microvilli walls have enzymes anchored or embedded in the actual walls. These enzymes start inside the body of the microvilli, and protrude through the wall of the microvilli into the hollow tube of the gut. When you eat food, these enzymes break down the chains of amino acids into tiny chains of three and two amino acids and, sometimes, even single amino acids. These are carried into the cells lining the gut and broken down (if necessary) into single amino acids. Then they are passed right through the cell out to the other side, and then into a vein that carries the individual amino acids to that big organ, the liver, for further processing.

So, yes, our human gut actually has all the mechanisms needed for digesting the proteins of meat. The gut contents are then moved into the large intestine where water and some electrolytes are removed. The time taken for this transit is much greater, ranging from 14 to 80 hours. The various transit times are affected by many factors including genetics, quantity of fibre in the diet, the size of the meals, age, gender, smoking, exercise and so on. But in each part of the gut, the mushy contents tend to move through as a unit, similar to toothpaste being squeezed out of its container. They are thoroughly mixed in together before they eventually escape to the outside world. Those parts of the mush that were originally meat are not separated out, and are not specially kept aside to quietly rot.

Thus, if you want your meat to do that, you need to put it to the side of your plate.
Debate Round No. 2
Stupidape

Pro

Outline

I. Rebuttal of Con
II. Summary
III. Links

I. Rebuttal of Con

I will devote this round to addressing Con's arguments.

" Yet, he still managed to avoid mentioning anything about the government anti-fat campaign which occurred in the late 1970's" Con

Pro: I don't know what your talking about with an anti-fat campaign. You haven't backed up your argument with enough outside sources for me to take this statement seriously.

"The graph that was shown on my reference, clearly demonstrates that since about 1970, there has been an large increase in obesity and diabetes." Con

Pro: I've seen other sources that confirm the same. Watch Forks Over Knives [17] and King Corn. [18] The amount of artificial sweeteners has increased dramatically. Corn is in just about every food. A third source of artificial sweeteners increasing is Christina Warinner's Ted video. [19]

"This can be squarely blamed on the world government's and their anti-fat/protein campaign of the late 1970's." Con

Pro: I have no idea what your talking about this world government anti-fat/protein campaign. More importantly, many high carb foods are unhealthy like HFCS soda, donuts, and trans fat laced pastries. If your making an argument that the anti-fat/protein campaign caused people to eat more of these foods I'll agree. I also agree that these foods are more detrimental to health than organic, grass-fed, and free roaming steak.

I contend that slow cooked oats like rolled oats and steel cut oats are healthy. I also argue that whole fruits and vegetables are healthy.

"Glycemic Index for Oats The glycemic index (GI) of cooked steel-cut oats is in the range of 42-50. The GI of oatmeal made from rolled oats is 51-63, with an average of 55. Instant oatmeal has a GI of 82." [20].

As you can see oats vary in health with steel cut being the healthiest, rolled average, and instant oatmeal unhealthy. Not all oats are created equal.

"Thus, if you want your meat to do that, you need to put it to the side of your plate." Con

Pro: I had to read your post carefully to understand what you are conveying. I think you mean these two sentences together. "
On the other hand, the timing of what happens to food puts paid to this claim that meat does not get digested." Part about digestion and then "and are not specially kept aside to quietly rot.

Thus, if you want your meat to do that, you need to put it to the side of your plate." Con

In brief what Con is stating is that meat only rots if the meat is not eaten and gives the example of putting the meat to the side of the plate.

I've read all of Cons statements and read through Cons links. I've noticed Con did not quote the abc website and thus is plagiarism, unless of course Con is the original author.

"On the other hand, the timing of what happens to food puts paid to this claim that meat does not get digested. The human gut has all the enzymes needed to digest meat.

The human gut is some 10 metres long. The food enters at your mouth where you chew it, and where your saliva adds a few digestive enzymes. Then, after transit via the oesophagus, this food ends up in the stomach.

In the stomach, the enzyme (called pepsin) attacks the proteins in meat. It breaks down the long chains of amino acids into smaller chains.

Typically, the food will stay in the stomach for between one half an hour and two and a half hours, before moving on to the next section, the small intestine. But the pepsin acting in the stomach digests only about 15 per cent of the protein.

The small intestine does most of the digestion and absorption of what we eat. It takes some two to six hours to do so.

In the small intestine, the pancreas pumps out various enzymes that break down the small chains of amino acids into even smaller chains.

The cells lining the gut have microscopic fingers on them called microvilli. The microvilli walls have enzymes anchored or embedded in the actual walls.

These enzymes start inside the body of the microvilli, and protrude through the wall of the microvilli into the hollow tube of the gut.

When you eat food, these enzymes break down the chains of amino acids into tiny chains of three and two amino acids and, sometimes, even single amino acids.

These are carried into the cells lining the gut and broken down (if necessary) into single amino acids. Then they are passed right through the cell out to the other side, and then into a vein that carries the individual amino acids to that big organ, the liver, for further processing.

So, yes, our human gut actually has all the mechanisms needed for digesting the proteins of meat.

The gut contents are then moved into the large intestine where water and some electrolytes are removed. The time taken for this transit is much greater, ranging from 14 to 80 hours.

The various transit times are affected by many factors including genetics, quantity of fibre in the diet, the size of the meals, age, gender, smoking, exercise and so on.

But in each part of the gut, the mushy contents tend to move through as a unit, similar to toothpaste being squeezed out of its container. They are thoroughly mixed in together before they eventually escape to the outside world.

Those parts of the mush that were originally meat are not separated out, and are not specially kept aside to quietly rot.

If you want your meat to do that, you need to put it to the side of your plate." Karl S. Kruszelnicki [21]

Unless Con is Karl S. Kruszelnicki, Con has not given the author his fair due. Nevertheless, I will argue down Karl S. Kruszelnicki. Let's first look at a wolf, a wolf is more adapted to a carnivorous lifestyle than humans. Felines are even more adapted. Looks specifically at the teeth A jaguar's teeth are vastly different from ours. [22]. Including canine, incisor, and carnassial teeth.

Wolves have the same three teeth + molars. [23]. Now compare this to human teeth.

"Incisors (8 total): The middlemost four teeth on the upper and lower jaws.
" Canines (4 total): The pointed teeth just outside the incisors.
" Premolars (8 total): Teeth between the canines and molars.
" Molars (8 total): Flat teeth in the rear of the mouth, best at grinding food.
" Wisdom teeth or third molars (4 total):"[24]

As you can see humans have incisor and canines, but no carnassial teeth. Now lets look at humans compared to other species.

"Saliva

CARNIVORE: No digestive enzymes
HERBIVORE: Carbohydrate digesting enzymes
OMNIVORE: No digestive enzymes
HUMAN: Carbohydrate digesting enzymes " [25]

"
CARNIVORE: Less than or equal to pH 1 with food in stomach
HERBIVORE: pH 4 to 5 with food in stomach
OMNIVORE: Less than or equal to pH 1 with food in stomach
HUMAN: pH 4 to 5 with food in stomach" [25]

"Length of Small Intestine

CARNIVORE: 3 to 6 times body length
HERBIVORE: 10 to more than 12 times body length
OMNIVORE: 4 to 6 times body length
HUMAN: 10 to 11 times body length "[25].

As you can see I have proven humans are more similar to herbivores than omnivores. Not only that but humans have carbohydrate digesting enzymes. So lets assume humans can digest meat completely and it doesn't rot. This doesn't mean meat is the ideal food for humans.

Kruszelnicki mentioned transit time. Well lets look at transit time for various foods. Water takes 0-10 minutes. Fruit 30-60 minutes and cooked meat 3-4 hours. From entering the mouth to exiting the stomach. [26].

"

Here are the time sequences for different food groups:

Water & Juices: 20-30 minutes.
Fruits, Smoothies, Soups: 30-45 minutes.
Vegetables: 30-45 minutes.
Beans, Grains, Starches: 2-3 hours.
Meat, Fish, Poultry: 3 or more hours." [27].

Clearly fruits and veggies have the advantage over grains. Grains in turn have an advantage over meat. Since grains, fruits, and veggies are all high in carbohydrates its clear that high-carb diets are ideal for health.

II. Summary

Con argues that there is a war on fat in the late 1970's. Yet, doesn't provide evidence if this war existed or not. Then Con, talks about the old food pyramid. We both agree that the pyramid puts too much emphasis on complex carbohydrates. Con and Pro differ in that Con thinks all carbohydrates are detrimental. Pro thinks that some carbohydrates are better than others. Specifically Pro thinks that donuts and instant oat meal are unhealthy. Yet, slow cooked rolled, steel cut oats, fruits, and vegetables are healthy.

Con's does not give credit to Karl S.Kruszelnicki, yet passes his words as his own. Pro then proves that humans are closer to herbivores than to carnivores using transit time, teeth, saliva, intestine length, and stomach Ph to proof his or her point. Unless Con can provide additional evidence the choice is clear. High-carb diets are ideal for health. Vote Pro.

III. Links

17. http://www.imdb.com...
18. http://www.kingcorn.net...
19. http://tedxtalks.ted.com...
20. http://lowcarbdiets.about.com...
21. http://www.abc.net.au...
22. http://www.thewildlifemuseum.org...
23. http://www.naturalworlds.org...
24. http://www.webmd.com...
25. http://www.ecologos.org...
26. http://www.raw-food-for-the-beginner.com...
27. http://www.cleanse-yourself-lose-weight.com...
Akhenaten

Con

1. The Us Government has produced many dietary guides over the years, most of them include a large proportion of carbohydrates as constituting a normal diet. This diet includes about 50% carbs, 30 %fruit and veg and only about 10% meat and dairy, with 10% sugar. Note - This diet will lead to disease and obesity.

https://en.wikipedia.org...

2. The video presented by Christina Warinner about the Paleo diet contains a lot of false information.
I noticed that she doesn't mention anything about the Australian Aborigines. The Australian Aborigines were a living example of the paleo diet. They didn't eat any grain food whatsoever, and all had perfect teeth and health and lived to 80-90 years of age on average. That was before the white man came, and then, they changed their diet and started to get all the same health problems that white people have.

http://www.westonaprice.org...

3. In regards to Karl Kruszeinicki - It should be noted that herbivores spend most of their time foraging and have very little rest or play time. Herbivores have 4 stomachs to digest their food, whereas humans only have one stomach. Note - My opponent cleverly left out this important information.

http://www.straightdope.com...

This article shows that humans are neither vegetarians, nor carnivores, but we are true omnivores.

Note - Grain food is not something that herbivores eat on a regular basis. Grain is essentially a bird food and is eaten mostly by birds and wasn't meant for humans to eat. Grain causes immune system reactions and swelling of internal organs due to the chemical poisons that grain contains to protect it from foragers. Thus most grass based foods are generally bad for human health and cause obesity and diabetes due to its fast digestion and sugar conversion like properties.

4. I am not contesting that fruit and vegetable are bad for humans. These are natural foods and are needed for vitamin purposes. I am only contesting that grain and sugar are bad for humans. If you are going to eat grain food, then, obviously, you should eat only small amounts and not eat the processed variety. Nuts are better than grain foods because they don't upset the digestive system and are much slower to digest and keep the body energized for a longer period of time.
Debate Round No. 3
Stupidape

Pro

"1. The Us Government has produced many dietary guides over the years, most of them include a large proportion of carbohydrates as constituting a normal diet. This diet includes about 50% carbs, 30 %fruit and veg and only about 10% meat and dairy, with 10% sugar. Note - This diet will lead to disease and obesity." Con

100% agree, assuming by 50% carbs you mean grains. Con has reminded Pro that grains are not an ideal food.

"The video presented by Christina Warinner about the Paleo diet contains a lot of false information." Con

This is a claim without a warrant, in other words a bare assertion. Since Con does not mention which information is false there is nothing more Pro can say about this claim.

" noticed that she doesn't mention anything about the Australian Aborigines. The Australian Aborigines were a living example of the paleo diet." Con

Claim: One of the food groups eaten by the Australian Aborigines was fruit.

Warrant: "The Australian fauna provided many delicious and nutritious fruits throughout the year, particularly in the humid coastal regions. Some of these were eaten raw just after picking" [28].

Impact: Its common knowledge that fruits are high in the macro nutrient carbohydrates. Thus, a healthy tribe consumed some high-carb food.

Claim: An orange is high, 65% or higher in carbohydrates.

Warrant: An orange contains 91% carbs [29].

Impact: A healthy tribe ate a high-carb fruit.

"3. In regards to Karl Kruszeinicki - It should be noted that herbivores spend most of their time foraging and have very little rest or play time." Con

True, but that could be said of most wild animals.

"Herbivores have 4 stomachs to digest their food, whereas humans only have one stomach. Note - My opponent cleverly left out this important information." Con

Not all herbivores have 4 stomachs.

Claim: A rabbit has one stomach

Warrant: "A rabbit has an esophagus, stomach, and intestinal tract like other mammals." [30].

Claim: A rabbit is a herbivore.

Warrant: "Rabbits are herbivores" [30].

Impact: Because a rabbit is a single stomach herbivore I have corrected Con's claim.

"This article shows that humans are neither vegetarians, nor carnivores, but we are true omnivores." Con

I've read through the article [31]. I'm not convinced by the conversation. Let's sum up what Pro thinks real quick about eating meat. First eating meat is better than starvation. The same goes for donuts, alcohol, and just about any substance with calories. From an evolution and survival of the fittest point of view it is logical for humans not to starve to death and thus eat some meat instead.

Claim: Chimpanzees eat army ants

Warrant: Researchers gathered plenty of data on how chimps use sticks to avoid being bitten by ants they are trying to eat [32].

Impact: Shows that eating meat is preferable to starvation.

Yet, I still contend meat is not needed when healthier options such as fruits and vegetables exist.

"Note - Grain food is not something that herbivores eat on a regular basis. Grain is essentially a bird food and is eaten mostly by birds and wasn't meant for humans to eat. Grain causes immune system reactions and swelling of internal organs due to the chemical poisons that grain contains to protect it from foragers. Thus most grass based foods are generally bad for human health and cause obesity and diabetes due to its fast digestion and sugar conversion like properties." Con

Agreed

"4. I am not contesting that fruit and vegetable are bad for humans. These are natural foods and are needed for vitamin purposes." Con

Agreed, it also seems you are agreeing with the resolution, thus making a Pro argument.

"I am only contesting that grain and sugar are bad for humans." Con

Agreed that grains aren't good for humans. Disagree with sugar being bad for humans. Also this statement invalidates the previous statement about fruits and vegetables being good for you. Since fruits contain a sugar called fructose. In other words Con just contradicted himself or herself. Which is it Con are fruits and vegetables good for you or are they unhealthy?

Claim: Fruit contains a sugar called fructose.
Warrant: "Fructose, the sweetest of sugars, is a simple carbohydrate also known as fruit sugar or levulose."[33].
Impact: Con claims that sugar is bad for humans, thus Con is making an argument against all fruits since all fruits contain sugar.

Claim: Vegetables contain a sugar called surcose.
Warrant: "Sucrose is commonly known as table sugar, and is obtained from sugar cane or sugar beets. Fruits and vegetables also naturally contain sucrose. " [34].
Impact: Con claims that sugar is bad for humans, thus Con is making an argument against all vegetables since all vegetables contain sugar.

Con seems to almost agree with Pro's resolution then backpedals and claims that sugar is bad for humans. Pro agrees that artificial sweeteners like HFCS and complex carbohydrates are unhealthy. Yet, still contends that fruits and vegetables are healthy. Since both parties agree that fruits and vegetables are healthy and are high-carb the argument stands that high-carb diets are ideal for health.

Let's present this another way. Let's look at the paleo diet.

Claim: The paleo diet allows a person to eat fruits and vegetables.
Warrant: "Vegetables and Fruits

The paleo diet greatly encourages those that are following it to consume more vegetables." [35].

Impact: A vegan diet and paleo diet are not mutually exclusive. Therefore, it is possible to eat a paleo diet that is high carb eating lots of fruits and vegetables.

Pro doesn't not understand why some paleo diets would encourage low consumption of carbs.

"If you are going to eat grain food, then, obviously, you should eat only small amounts and not eat the processed variety. Nuts are better than grain foods because they don't upset the digestive system and are much slower to digest and keep the body energized for a longer period of time." Con

Irrelevant.

Summary it seems Pro and Con almost agree. Pro thinks a person can eat a vegan paleo diet of fruits and vegetables. Con still contends that all sugars are detrimental to health at same time stating that fruits and vegetables are "These are natural foods and are needed for vitamin purposes." Con

The main disagreements seem to be. Pro thinks meat should be eliminated from the diet. Con thinks meat should be eaten in high amounts. Pro thinks a high-carbohydrate diet is ideal. Con thinks a low carbohydrate diet is ideal.

Pro and Con agree that grains and artificial sugars like HFCS are unhealthy.

Links:
28. http://www.westonaprice.org...
29. http://nutritiondata.self.com...
30. http://www.dummies.com...
31. http://www.straightdope.com...
32. http://www.theguardian.com...
33. http://www.livestrong.com...
34. http://healthyeating.sfgate.com...
Akhenaten

Con

1. Processed sugar is bad for you. White sugar is the worse, brown sugar better, molasses better still and treacle best.
Fruit is good for you until you juice it then it becomes too much for the digestive system and if the fibre has been removed it is bad.

http://paleoleap.com...

2. Most herbivores have 4 stomachs. The point being, that there is a big difference between the average herbivore and a human. Humans and most carnivores have heaps of leisure time in comparison to herbivores which spend most of their waking hours grazing. My opponent was trying to make it seen that humans are closest to herbivores than they are to carnivores. This is untrue. Humans are closest to carnivores with similar sized intestines and stomachs. Eating meat is the fastest way to get a lot of leisure time. When you eat vegetables, it requires a lot of preparation and mucking around. You have to cook vegetables before you can eat them because the human gut can't digest cellulose.

http://wellnessmama.com...

3. My opponent has avoided discussing the amount of disease which is caused by high carb diets. Why doesn't he talk about diabetes and obesity which has increased since the introduction of the food pyramid in the 1970's. No, he has avoided discusing this issue because he knows that high carb diets lead to many health problems and diseases.

4. List of most dangerous foods that humans can eat -

1. Artificial sweeteners: Aspartame (i.e. Nutrasweet) and Sucralose (i.e. Splenda), Saccharin (i.e. Equal)- neurotoxins that cause brain tumors and increased cravings for sweets leading to insulin resistance, diabetes, heart disease and obesity (yes, contrary to popular belief, "diet" or "sugar-free" foods make you fat).

2. Hydrogenated oils, partially hydrogenated oils " cause heart disease, cancer, diabetes and obesity.

3. Fried foods (this includes chips) " cause heart disease, cancer, diabetes and obesity.

4. MSG (monosodium glutamate - i.e. hydrolyzed yeast extract, hydolized protein, etc.) " MSG is a neuroexcitotoxin which hyperstimulates brain cells, causing them to burn out and die, leading to neurodegenerative diseases such as Alzheimer"s and Parkinson"s diseases.

5. Soda pop (Diet and/or Regular) " leads to insulin resistance, diabetes, heart disease and obesity; also, the phosphoric acid leads to calcium depletion, which leads to osteoporosis. Click here to read what happens to your body when you drink soda.

6. Wheat flour foods (breads, pasta, cakes, cookies, crackers, etc.) " grains cause insulin resistance, diabetes, heart disease and obesity. Gliadin, one of the two main protein components of gluten, is very pro-inflammatory.

7. Cured meats (bacon, sausages, and lunch meats " anything with nitrates, nitrites) " nitrates and nitrites cause cancer (especially leukemia in children).

8. Pasteurized and homogenized milk and milk products (butter, ice cream, yogurt, etc.) " cause heart disease, cancer, diabetes and obesity. Butter and heavy cream from organic pasture-fed cows is the exception.

9. Sugar " leads to insulin resistance, diabetes, heart disease, cancer and obesity. We must look at refined sugar as the poison it truly is.

10. High fructose corn syrup (found in many foods " too many to list; see "HFCS" article library at www.drkratka.com) " leads to insulin resistance, diabetes, heart disease, cancer and obesity.

11. Artificial Food Colorings " red, blue, and yellow dyes are used widely in many foods. Like MSG, they are neuroexcitotoxins and a contributory factor in attention-deficit disorder and hyperactivity.

Note - Complex and Simple Carbohydrates take up positions 6,9 &10.

- See more at: http://bonfirehealth.com...
Debate Round No. 4
Stupidape

Pro

Outline
I. Summary thus far
II. Rebuttal of Con
III. Final summary
IV. Links

I. Summary thus far

So far Con has almost exclusively attacked complex carbs and refined sugars. While effectively narrowing down the healthy choices, this does little to impact the resolution since fruits and vegetables contain high amounts of the macro nutrient carbohydrates. Con only attack on fruit and vegetables are wide swipes at carbohydrates in general. At the same time Con makes a Pro argument stating that fruits and vegetables are natural and necessary for vitamins. Yet, fails to demonstrate the parameters of how much fruits and vegetables are healthy eaten.

Meanwhile Pro has shown the health benefits of fruits and vegetables. Including phytonutrients, anti-oxidants, fiber, and vitamins. While showing that fat, saturated fat, cholesterol, and excess animal protein are detrimental to health. These arguments made by Pro can be found in round 2. These facts show that not only are the high-carbohydrate foods known as fruits and vegetables good for health, but that high fat and high animal protein foods are bad for health.

Next Pro and Con agree humans are omnivores, yet debate where on the sliding scale humans fit as an omnivore. Pro contends that humans are closer to herbivores than carnivores. Con contends that humans are closer to carnivores than herbivores. Pro shows through five factors teeth, saliva, stomach Ph, small intestine length, and transit times that humans are closer to herbivores. Con relies upon two factors the number of stomachs humans have and how long herbivores spend chewing grass.

II. Rebuttal of Con

"1. Processed sugar is bad for you. White sugar is the worse, brown sugar better, molasses better still and treacle best." Con

Irrelevant. Nobody is arguing that processed sugar is good for you.

"Fruit is good for you until you juice it then it becomes too much for the digestive system and if the fibre has been removed it is bad." Con

Agreed, without the fiber there is too much of a blood sugar spike. Besides fiber is good for you. Warrant: See round 2.

"Most herbivores have 4 stomachs." Con

Bare assertion.

"The point being, that there is a big difference between the average herbivore and a human." Con

Claim based upon a previous claim which is a bare assertion.

"Humans and most carnivores have heaps of leisure time in comparison to herbivores which spend most of their waking hours grazing." Con

Bare assertion.

Claim: Deer are herbivores
Warrant: "

Type:
Mammal
Diet:
Herbivore
Average life span in captivity:
6 to 14 years
Size:
6 to 7.75 ft (1.8 to 2.4 m)
Weight:
110 to 300 lbs (50 to 136 kg)
Group name:
Herd
Did you know?
"White-tailed"" [35]

Claim: Deer have time to play around.

Warrant: Seen with my own eyes.
Impact: Deer are herbivores that seem to have plenty of time to play around and not graze all the time. Thus, weakening Con's claim that carnivores have heaps of time in comparison to herbivores.

"Humans are closest to carnivores with similar sized intestines and stomachs." Con

Bare assertion.

"Eating meat is the fastest way to get a lot of leisure time." Con

Bare assertion.

"When you eat vegetables, it requires a lot of preparation and mucking around."

Bare assertion.

Claim: Romaine lettuce is a vegetable

Warrant: "Vegetables Lettuce Romaine" [36].

Claim: Romaine lettuce can be eaten raw with little to no prep work.

Warrant: Common knowledge, performed claim on several occasions.

Impact: Contrary evidence to Con's claim, thus disproving the notion. Not all vegetables take a lot of preparation and mucking around.

"You have to cook vegetables before you can eat them because the human gut can't digest cellulose." Con

Bare assertion. Note Cons claim is true nevertheless, yet cellulose is fiber and fiber is healthy. Warrant: [37]
Impact: The fact that cellulose is indigestible is good for human health.

"No, he has avoided discusing this issue because he knows that high carb diets lead to many health problems and diseases." Con

As I stated in round 1 you can eat an unhealthy high-carb diet. Nevertheless, you can also eat a healthy and ideal high-carb diet. If you wanted to criticize the resolution round one and two were the time for that. In brief, a high-carb diet can cause disease. A person can consume only high-carb junk food. Yet, this doesn't mean all foods containing carbohydrates are unhealthy.

Con's second half of round 4 is most likely plagiarized.[38] Starting with this sentence "1. Artificial sweeteners: Aspartame (i.e. Nutrasweet) and Sucralose (i.e. Splenda)," Most of the text is just copied and pasted from the Bonfire link. Con could be the author. Con also failed to give credit to the author in round 2.

Even so, I will refute the copied text. Pro almost entirely agrees with all eleven points. Pro only disagrees with points 8 and 9.

"8. Pasteurized and homogenized milk and milk products (butter, ice cream, yogurt, etc.) " cause heart disease, cancer, diabetes and obesity. Butter and heavy cream from organic pasture-fed cows is the exception.

9. Sugar " leads to insulin resistance, diabetes, heart disease, cancer and obesity. We must look at refined sugar as the poison it truly is." Con

8. Organic pasture-fed cows will not make the difference. There is still animal protein, fat, saturated fat, and cholesterol in these products. [39]. As show in Pro's round two over-nutrition of these substances is detrimental to human health. Not only that but milk contains, you guessed what? Sugar, which Con has condemned. This is hypocritical on Con's part to state sugar is unhealthy and then to state a food with sugar in it is healthy.

9. Again, with the broad sugar hating. Yet, recommending milk which contains 13g of sugar [38]. Also recommending fruit and vegetables which contain sugar while criticizing sugar in general.

III. Final summary

It is unclear whether Con thinks sugar is good or bad. Con both praises and condemns sugar. In contrast Pro continually contents that whole fruits and vegetables are ideal for health. Pro makes no sweeping statements about sugar being bad. Instead, Pro decides by individual foods. For example, Pro thinks whole fruits and vegetables are good, yet makes the distinction that fruit juice is unhealthy.

Overall, Pro's resolution and round two argument still stands. Con relies upon many bare assertions, blatant plagiarism, condemning all carbohydrates , and conspiracy theories about an anti-fat campaign. Thanks for the debate, thanks for reading, and vote Pro.

IV. Links

35. http://animals.nationalgeographic.com...
36. http://www.burpee.com...
37. http://www.scienceclarified.com...
38. http://bonfirehealth.com...
39. http://nutritiondata.self.com...
Akhenaten

Con

1. I have already stated that fruit and vegetables are healthy and I am not contesting these items. Fruit and vegetables contain vitamins which are essential for good health. Whereas, processed grain doesn't contain any vitamins at all. Thus, when you eat processed grain foods, the body needs to extract the bodies vitamins in order to process this food. This drains the bodies resources and makes the immune system weak and depleted as a result. Thus, when you eat processed and refined foods, this causes a draining of vitamins and overheats the body cells. Sugars are designed for high performance animals like birds and insects which are hyperactive and use high octane fuel in order to fly and move fast. If humans eat too much of this high octane fuel, it will make them become a bit psycho, similar to a drug addict. Thus, refined carbohydrates are a dangerous food substances because they cause an insulin spike which results in psychotic behaviour in humans.

Note - This is not a "bare assertion." - http://healthyeating.sfgate.com...

https://www.psychologytoday.com...

2. Herbivores need to eat constantly throughout the day, this is because they have small stomachs and their food source is very low GI and they need a lot of it to survive. This is not a "bare assertion".

https://www.google.com.au...

https://classconnection.s3.amazonaws.com...

http://www.succeed-equine.com...

Horses should eat constantly because their GI tract is designed to always be digesting small amounts of forage as they graze nearly around the clock. It just makes sense that since that"s the way it works, that"s how we need to feed for them to be most healthy.

Here"s a quick reminder of a few reasons why horses need constant access to quality pasture or hay:

The equine liver is continuously secreting bile. Since there"s no gall bladder to store it, the bile is continuously delivered into the small intestine directly from the liver.
The stomach constantly produces acids for breaking down foods and activating enzymes for digesting proteins
The horse"s stomach is relatively small and can only hold so much at one time
Most of a horse"s energy comes from fermenting forages in the hindgut
Feeding a few large meals can lead to digestive imbalance. This can then lead to body condition and performance issues, and even serious health conditions like ulcers and colic.

3. The human digestive tract is in similar proportion to carnivores, but may be slightly longer due to our omnivore tendencies. Whereas, the herbivore intestinal tract is miles longer and has 4 stomachs in most cases. This is not a "bare assertion" - diagram below.

https://online.science.psu.edu...

The human gut can't process either cellulose or raw meat. Thus, humans are unique, in that they have developed an external stomach which is called a 'cooking pot'. Thus, humans can't be classified as either vegetarians or carnivores.
Debate Round No. 5
1 comment has been posted on this debate.
Posted by Akhenaten 1 year ago
Akhenaten
It is more appropriate to refute an argument with evidence, than to just say that a comment is a "bare assertion." By doing this, you yourself are making the bare assertion of a "assertion".
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