The Instigator
Hamlicar_B_Rules
Pro (for)
Losing
18 Points
The Contender
Hypnodoc
Con (against)
Winning
65 Points

High schools waste time with foreign language, fine arts and gym requirements.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 6/9/2008 Category: Arts
Updated: 8 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 17,187 times Debate No: 4376
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (6)
Votes (26)

 

Hamlicar_B_Rules

Pro

I'm in high school and can personally defend my argument.

1.High schools waste not only time, but resources and money with these requirements.
2.Most students would not take these classes if they were not required.
3.The students who are force to take these classes through requirements, for the most part, do not use the class for any post school progressions in life. e.g. it's truly not useful in their life
4.These classes not being required would allow students to have a more focus base program for their college career and/or interest.
5.In addition, it would create a better imitative through freedom of choice
Hypnodoc

Con

Thank you for posting this debate.

I will begin with my opponents opening,

1. High schools waste not only time, but resources and money with these requirements.

My opponent considers these classes a waste however it is not possible to define them as such. A waste would imply that the value of the class is out weighed by its cost. In this case you cannot assign a monetary value to an appreciation of the fine arts or music, Furthermore the value of a healthy lifestyle as is taught and promoted in Phys ed. can hardly be considered a waste.

2. Most students would not take these classes if they were not required.

This is a given as they are required classes they are not required because they are the most popular or easiest classes. My opponent's statement is both obvious and irrelevant.

3. The students who are force to take these classes through requirements, for the most part, do not use the class for any post school progressions in life. e.g. it's truly not useful in their life

The above statement is blatantly false.

In the US over 12 billion dollars a year are spent by individuals utilizing their Phys Ed training in the Gym, Museums enjoy thousands of visitors a day by those you claim have no interest in Fine art and symphony attendance in most major cities is Also on the rise.

4. These classes not being required would allow students to have a more focus base program for their college career and/or interest.

The Majority of Colleges require you to meet a foreign language credit. Therefore studying a language is preparing you for college.

5. In addition, it would create a better imitative through freedom of choice

Freedom of choice given to a population that has no idea what they need to or should choose has never been a good idea nor has it been successful.

Studies conducted at the University of Chicago have shown a direct correlation between the study of Music composition and an ability to understand advanced mathematic structures. The findings were clear in that Mathematic and Music theory are very much intertwined. This in itself shows the value of the study of Music as it increases the understanding of mathematics on a very advanced level.

The university of California produced a study in 1993 that stated "Mozart raises IQ" Eluding to the fact that classical music actually makes you smarter.

My opponent is basing his entire argument on Speculation and the well known fact that most teenagers do not like being told what to do.
The overwhelming evidence is that these courses however difficult and seemingly tedious are extremely beneficial to students and should be included in the required curriculum
Debate Round No. 1
Hamlicar_B_Rules

Pro

Thank you for responding and taking this serious. I must note that all of my conclusive evidence is supported through observation and survey.

I will begin my rebuttal with your counter points of course.

1. In retort, my opponents' first counter argument is illogical. He only stated "it is not possible to define them as such", which isn't true. In addition, there is no evidence he concluded to debunk my first argument that these classes were financial and time wastes.

You can imply momentary value to the appreciation of fine arts. For at the age you are given these requirements, on the most part, appreciation for art and the class is a preset opinion. Furthermore, my opponent's statement about physical education ‘the value of a healthy lifestyle as is taught and promoted in phys ed.', is depended on the premise that all or most high schools have adequate physical education programs and the students are learning (for something to be correctly thought, they must learn), to imply and accept the conclusion that the value of a healthy lifestyle… can hardly be considered a waste. This is a fault in my opponents' argument, for high schools today, contradict healthy lifestyle with the lunch provided. Sure there are the few ‘healthy options', however those options are never good food and are never in enough supply for the entire school. The best option there is the status quo of pizza, nachos, or chicken. And my opponents' argument treats phys Ed as the only opportunity to a healthy lifestyle, if anything a healthy lifestyle should began at home, not in your freshmen year of high school.

The classes were classified as waste for the reasoning that most high school students do not want to take these classes. That statement implies that high school students when involved with these unwanted classes will quickly do what they have to do and rush to get a passing grade, which also implies that it is a waste. Also, good education is never equated doing what you have to do and rushing to get a passing grade. And if the purpose of school is good education and little or no good education is received then it's a waste.

2. The point is not irrelevant, obvious less than likely. They are a waste of time to those would wish to focus their educational path on something more interesting in their eyes.

3. The statement is not blatantly false, although my opponents' statistic may or may not be true. There is still the argument that there are many more individuals who do not use the information they leaned in these classes. Learning soccer or perspective drawing has no use if you wish to become a vet. There are many cases where you are forced to take an art class when you would be best prepared with another science or history class.

4. Although most colleges' core curriculum requires you meet a foreign language credit, you do not need a forced preparation for the class in college. If there is a level one class at the college then you should easily be able to take it beginning at that point. There are many students who take a Romance foreign credit only to take up a Slavic foreign language class in college. So again there is no need with your reasoning.

5. I for the most part accept this statement true, but it offers no real logic for it being required, which is the augment. It may help your math skills, but a year of music is not the foundation to being a good mathematician. And beyond that, my opponents' counter argument for this point only addressed music classes. It gave no conclusive evidence to negate requirements of foreign language, fine arts, and gym.

My argument is based on speculation, which I've admitted though labeling some evidence as logical observations. But the speculation is valid, for I have witness and been through the following events. I've been given the same results from different races, sexes, ethnics, religions, states and other counties.

It is in no way built the well known ‘fact' that most teenagers do not like being told what to do. There is not overwhelming evidence to my opponents' case.
Hypnodoc

Con

"In retort, my opponents' first counter argument is illogical. He only stated "it is not possible to define them as such", which isn't true. In addition, there is no evidence he concluded to debunk my first argument that these classes were financial and time wastes".

My opponent in the above statement does nothing to counter the standpoint that you cannot place a dollar amount on appreciation. Again If my opponent can show conclusively that you can assign a monetary value to the appreciation of Art then I invite him to do so until that time he has not refuted my statement.

"You can imply momentary value to the appreciation of fine arts. For at the age you are given these requirements, on the most part, appreciation for art and the class is a preset opinion."

The Above statement makes no sense; It does nothing to prove you can assign monetary value to appreciation of art.

My opponent's diatribe about school lunches is completely irrelevant we are not here to debate the value of a healthy lunch as served in his school. The fact is that Phys Ed for a large number of adolescents and teens is the corner stone of their activity without it they would be couch potatoes. The obesity epidemic in this country is a testament to the need for a required Phys Ed. Not just to build a standard of activity but to make sure that these people get some form of regular activity. Ensuring a basic understanding of health and activity is crucial. hardly a waste of time and resources.

My opponent has not shown his statement about people not using what they learn in art or Phys Ed. to be correct. He has merely stated it again and made a feeble attempt to question the validity of my rebuttal of said statement. Once Again Americans spend over 12 billion dollars a year applying what they learned in Phys Ed in at the Gym. Attendance at symphonies and museums are steadily increasing. The latter could and should be considered an appreciation of Music and the Arts.

My opponent believes that there is no benefit in a foreign language requirement even though most colleges require a foreign language. Anyone of reasonable intellect can see that it is beneficial to have a base in a foreign language before attending college.

Evidence from brain research is only one of many reasons education and engagement in fine arts is beneficial to the educational process. The arts develop neural systems that produce a broad spectrum of benefits ranging from fine motor skills to creativity and improved emotional balance. One must realize that these systems often take months and even years to fine-tune. In a study conducted by Judith Burton, Columbia University, research evidenced that subjects such as mathematics, science, and language require complex cognitive and creative capacities "typical of arts learning" (Burton, Horowitz, & Abeles, 1999). "The arts enhance the process of learning. The systems they nourish, which include our integrated sensory, attentional, cognitive, emotional, and motor capacities, are, in fact, the driving forces behind all other learning" (Jensen, 2001).

My opponent readily states that the arguments he puts forth are largely speculation on his part. Above I have chosen to go the opposite route, Science.
Debate Round No. 2
Hamlicar_B_Rules

Pro

So… um before I get started. I wanted to let you know, um I'm a girl… :)
Additionally I don't know if I was a bit ambiguous, but I'm debating that these classes should not be required.

"You can imply momentary value to the appreciation of fine arts. For at the age you are given these requirements, on the most part, appreciation for art and the class is a preset opinion."

Forgive me if I was unclear, I confess to a type.

The statement above meant by the time you are faced with these requirements you have already formulated an opinion if you truly enjoy fine arts or not.
With that, you can assign monetary value. If you do not enjoy the class, and have no plan to invest the knowledge this class provides in anything personally beneficial, then there is no need for a compulsory attendance and social financial investment.

The statements that diatribe school lunches is anything but completely irrelevant.

It was a simple counter to the idea that school systems promote a healthy lifestyle, when the status quo food is anything but healthy. The criticism of school lunch was to demonstrate the contradictions of American school systems, which do not promote a healthy lifestyle as you suggested.

As well, it must be stated that by the time you are faced with a high school physical education class you are already fine tuned into future health habits. There is little to no evidence to suggest that P.E. creates a healthy lifestyle. There is also no evidence to state with without P.E. students would be couch potatoes.

I absolutely refute your statement that physical education is the cornerstone to activity and is quintessential to health. If anything sports activities can be debated as the cornerstone to adolescent activity, and they are not required. They are only suggested, which I feel should be the same for physical education, fine arts, and foreign language, suggested not required.

The obesity epidemic in this country is a problem. But physical education is a pain killer to the carcinogen. For physical education to serve its purpose it must be a lifestyle, which it isn't. For the majority of high school students, I assure you, it is a required credit and nothing more. That returns to my argument of it being a waste. Beyond this, the true elixir to the obesity epidemic, lack of activity, and health begins with a conscience effort at home and at early youth

Also, your argument states the 12 billion dollars spent is due to physical activities and fine arts.

I disagree, for the rise in physical activates is an effect, to the cause, which is the conscience obesity epidemic. There would be a rise in physical activities regardless of the high school requirement. Thus it gives no accreditation for it being required.

Again, your entire case does nothing to suggest it being a requirement. There is a key difference between what is needed and what is helpful. You do not need prior knowledge to a foreign language class before attending college, if you plan simply to begin a level one. It is helpful, I must admit, but it like others should be nothing more than a mere suggestion, if and only if the language is truly beneficial to your college language choice and life.
Besides, you didn't even address the statement of how it is pointless if you plan to study a Slavic language in college when they only offer Romance in high school. Your best bet is to save the time and money and energy on a more beneficial class.

And so on, going the opposite route does not discredit my observational evidence and surveys. It is nothing more than a different way to achieve evidence. I clearly stated that my speculations were valid and concrete.
There are various criticisms to the evidence you suggest.
The evidence you provided with science I might add is not statistically relevant to the majority, the people I address in my argument.
You entire agreement is built on overly expanding on small effecting details.

****Music is not needed to become a good mathematician.
****You do not need to listen to classical music for a high or higher IQ.
****You do not need physical education to provide understanding of what a healthy lifestyle is.
****You do not need high school foreign language to prepare you for college.
****You do not need art to have an appreciation of art.
****You do not need fine arts to become emotional balance.

The entirety of physical education, fine arts, and foreign language should at best be highly recommended, but they should by all means not be required and threat graduation.
****It will allow monetary savings for the city and state.
****It will save time.
****It will give students the freedom of choice in their educational career.
****And it will allow students to better prepare themselves for their college career and life goals by focusing on what they need.
Hypnodoc

Con

I am debating that these classes should be required to a higher degree as they are far more valuable than you realize. The benefits to society outweigh the cost.

"You can imply momentary value to the appreciation of fine arts. For at the age you are given these requirements, on the most part, appreciation for art and the class is a preset opinion."

The facts are clear,exposure to Fine arts before the high school level is the exception not the rule. The exposure they do receive is rudimentary at best. Studies have shown that exposure to The Arts are extremely beneficial to the development of critical thinking and math skills. These classes help with the academic performance in other areas.

Below I will share some facts with sources to show a clear value in fine arts programs simply put the requirement of fine arts creates more intelligent higher scoring and more desirable college students.

The College Board identifies the arts as one of the six basic academic subject areas students should study in order to succeed in college. Academic Preparation for College: What Students Need to Know and Be Able to Do, 1983 [still in use], The College Board, New York

Data from the National Education Longitudinal Study of 1988 showed that music participants received more academic honors and awards than non-music students, and that the percentage of music participants receiving As, As/Bs, and Bs was higher than the percentage of non- participants receiving those grades. NELS:88 First Follow-up, 1990, National Center for Education Statistics, Washington DC

Students with coursework/experience in music performance and music appreciation scored higher on the SAT: students in music performance scored 57 points higher on the verbal and 41 points higher on the math, and students in music appreciation scored 63 points higher on verbal and 44 points higher on the math, than did students with no arts participation. College-Bound Seniors National Report: Profile of SAT Program Test Takers. Princeton, NJ: The College Entrance Examination Board, 2001.

As For the Comments on Lunches, School environment and Physical Education

The debate is not weather or not the school promotes a healthy lifestyle it is specifically remarked to the value of Physical Education and that class's specific role in increasing activity among teens.

As well, it must be stated that by the time you are faced with a high school physical education class you are already fine tuned into future health habits. There is little to no evidence to suggest that P.E. creates a healthy lifestyle. There is also no evidence to state with without P.E. students would be couch potatoes.

"I absolutely refute your statement that physical education is the cornerstone to activity and is quintessential to health"

You Need facts to refute a statement the facts are clearly in support of My arguments.

Adolescents who participate in physical education at school are more likely to maintain a normal weight as young adults, according to a study by researchers at the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health. For each weekday of physical education at school the odds of being an overweight adult decreased by 5 percent. Participation in all five days of physical education decreased the odds of being an overweight adult by 28 percent. The study is published in the January 2008 edition of the journal,

The American Academy of Pediatrics and the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services recommend physical education at all grade levels.

Here are the facts from the CDC:

Only 19 percent of all high school students are physically active for 20 minutes or more, five days a week, in physical education classes.

Daily enrollment in physical education classes dropped from 42 percent to 25 percent among high school students between 1991 and 1995.

Well designed school-based interventions directed at increasing physical activity in physical education classes have been shown to be effective.

Social support from family and friends has been consistently and positively related to regular physical activity.

BENEFITS OF PHYSICAL ACTIVITY

Helps build and maintain healthy bones, muscles, and joints.

Helps control weight, build lean muscle, and reduce fat.

Prevents or delays the development of high blood pressure and helps reduce blood pressure in some adolescents with hypertension

These facts clearly demonstrate that Required Physical Education and Fine Arts classes such as Music are extremely beneficial and the benefits by far outweigh the costs.
Debate Round No. 3
6 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 6 records.
Posted by sqharawa 8 years ago
sqharawa
I just got back from a semester in Botswana, where I also traveled to South Africa, Mozambique, and Swaziland. I met people from all over the world, and us Americans are pretty much the only people on the planet who don't speak more than one language. How embarrassing.
Posted by tangerineman91 8 years ago
tangerineman91
I was surprised that Con never brought up the burden of proof. Pro tried to lay the burden of proof on Con more than once, which is not the Con's job.
It would probably also be good to stay on the topic of "High schools waste time with foreign language, fine arts and gym requirements." That would have made the arguments more effective (hopefully) and streamlined.
Posted by Hamlicar_B_Rules 8 years ago
Hamlicar_B_Rules
Yeah this was long debate.
Posted by critterrice 8 years ago
critterrice
This was a good debate. The Freud looking guy and the Bearded lady stone golem made many valuable points.
I commend you both.
Posted by Hypnodoc 8 years ago
Hypnodoc
LOL I did not expect a real debate my first time either. Good topic thank you for posting it and I hope you have fon on the site.
Posted by Hamlicar_B_Rules 8 years ago
Hamlicar_B_Rules
Wow I wasn't really expecting a real debate on my first time on here, this is pretty cool
And thanks again for debating.
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