The Instigator
Tobias_Berenson
Pro (for)
Losing
9 Points
The Contender
wingnut2280
Con (against)
Winning
15 Points

Hilary Clinton should not be registered as a democrat

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/15/2008 Category: Politics
Updated: 9 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 873 times Debate No: 1824
Debate Rounds (2)
Comments (3)
Votes (8)

 

Tobias_Berenson

Pro

The GOP has been in favor of our war in Iraq since the beginning. As the presidential race is getting more heated, more of hilary's character and beleifs are becoming more pronounced. She was in favor of the war when it began, and is the only of the 3 contenders of the Dems. that is not saying "Pull out immediately!" also, please take this into consideration:
April has become the deadliest month for U.S. forces in Iraq since the war began more than a year ago. The U.S.-led coalition faces insurrections on several fronts, including the Sunni Muslim stronghold of Fallujah, west of Baghdad, and the militia of a Shiite Muslim cleric in Najaf in the south.

To the disappointment of some antiwar liberals in her Democratic base, Clinton, the former first lady, voted in favor of the Iraq war resolution in October 2002.

"Obviously, I've thought about that a lot in the months since," she said. "No, I don't regret giving the president authority because at the time it was in the context of weapons of mass destruction, grave threats to the United States, and clearly, Saddam Hussein had been a real problem for the international community for more than a decade." (CNN)(April 21 2004)

It was already imminent to the US that there were no WMDs. while i have no reliable source for this, lets be logical. If Hussein or Suddam had had wmds dont you think that they would have used them? also: Iraq has no wmds. Now, a group may get them, but Iraq has no strong government so i dont see how they could have more than a militia. and how does a militia arm a nuke? they dont. they have to be trained and im sure they wouldnt be. she was just using the current catchphrase to make a point that has now been proven BS (on wmds).

Yeah, of course hussein was a problem to the global community, but he was being taken care of, or would have been. He was an extremist fascist, and, seeing as history does have a tendency to repeat itself, he would have been overpowered. Either by the people or by another group. Not to say that we shouldnt have done something about him, but a militarized action was overkill. If we had been logical and objective than im sure that the UN would have helped in this situation. The UN has much more influence than a strongly redneck perceived country. We have no creditabillity and are seen as overly violent and no tact. that should not be the case.
wingnut2280

Con

I'm not really sure what your argument is.

If it is that Hillary shouldn't be a democrat or she should be a republican than you are obviously mistaken.

The only point you provide me with is that she voted for the war and does not want to pull troops out immediately. Her explaination for her vote is simply that she was dooped by intelligence into making what she thought was the correct decision. This does not make her any less of a democrat.

Second, Hillary recognizes that immediate troop withdrawal would be dangerous. She is just as much of an opponent to the war as any of the other nominees. Her approach is simply a realistic one.

In short, Hillary holds nearly all of the typically democratic views and is widely considered one of the more liberal congresspersons. There is absolutely no way she could be considered a republican.

As for the war, I am not going to sit here and defend the decision to go in. But, to straighten out your info. The war has been going on for north of six years. I don't see how April is relevant. In the latest months we have seen a dramatic drop in insurgency and the Iraqi government FINALLY start to adopt some legislation and structure just last week. The progress there is undeniable, even by the democrats, regardless of whether or not we were right to go in there in the first place.
Debate Round No. 1
Tobias_Berenson

Pro

I thought it was perfectly cleat: Hilary should not be registered as a democrat. She holds republican ideals, and is not true to her party.

"If it is that Hillary shouldn't be a democrat or she should be a republican than you are obviously mistaken." This comment is misinformed. Have you noticed that she is not refuted nearly as much as obama or edwards (aside from the whole crying spell, but that was only an act, im sure). This leads me to the conclusion that either she is seen as not a threat or they feel that if she becomes the nominee than its a win-win situation for the GOP. Im much more sure of the latter. A party with as much experience as the republicans would not underestimate someone with a following that powerful.

Simple people see the way out, but only talk. A troop withdrawal has been decided is necessary, but if elected its rather obvious that Hilary would follow the same track as the republican counterparts would do: talk and talk and talk and talk. and what will that do to the economy? ruin it, not like its not horrible.

If you read what i had put, it was from april 2004, just using that as direct quote. and now if you consider that we forced them into a democracy it would make more sense for us to not interfere and pull out NOW, but she doesnt seem to uphold that idea as well. Barack says to bring home two combat brigades a month, and to have all soldiers and troops home in 16 months. that is an immediate withdrawal, not the four years that, if she stuck to what she said in this debate (). Obama and Edwards both say the will not build anymore perm. bases in iraq, and the only soldiers there will be at the embassies, or if al qaeda were to cause problems and if we were needed, such as if our embasies were involved. What has hilary said? contrary to what the typical dem. views (that of obama and edwards, as her dem. major opponents) and upholds ideas that have not been, as i said earlier, remain unrefuted by any of the republican runners.

I eegerly await your arguement.
wingnut2280

Con

First, Hillary is possibly the most disliked Democrat amongst Republicans now. There are Stop Hillary coalitions and nearly every facet of the republican anti-democrat campaign is focused on taking her down. The republicans have been expecting to take her on for almost a year now and have been gathering the intel to run against her. Watch any republican show or listen to any republican candidate and within five minutes you will hear a Hillary reference. Granted, republicans also dislike Barack, but it is clear that their hatred for Hillary and the Clintons runs deep.

That being said, even if you are correct on the war, HIllary is a violent Democrat on EVERY other issue. Healthcare, economics, general foreign policy, immigration. Hillary is virtually a carbon copy of the Democratic platform. I don't see how her being allegedly weak on the war trumps EVERY other stance she takes on every other issue. Your argument is essentially that Hillary doesn't want to take troops out as fast. This doesn't change her hatred for the war, as she has demonstrated in the past five years. To be sure, Hillary is a democrat through and through, regardless of how strong or weak you think she is on troop withdrawal.

Furthermore, HIllary isn't as weak as you claim on the troop withdrawal. Her whole campaign is focused on her being "ready on day one". How many times have we heard Hillary talk about how prepared she is to walk in and get things done right away?

And, HIllary would know more about an effective, safe troop withdrawal than either of the other candidates. She has been a ranking member on the Armed Services committee for years and is privy to more experience and information on the issue. We see this in the campaign as well. The other dem candidates have steadily shifted their postured their position on the war closer and closer to HIllary's. While distinctions between the candidates remain, Hillary has taken her experience with the situation and posited a practical and reasonable option for troop withdrawal. The other candidates are relying on what they think voters want to hear. Hillary is putting forward straight talk about the issue.

While I don't agree with the troop withdrawal personally, I think its obvious that Hillary Clinton is a gleaming example of a Democrat. Whether she is as strong as Obama and Edwards on the war is a matter of debate (i think she is strongest as I have shown above), but still, her positions on every single issue are gleaming examples of Democratic ideals. She consistently wins the Democratic base's support, while Obama wins moderates and independents, proving that registered Democrats see her as a more representative candidate.
Debate Round No. 2
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Posted by wingnut2280 9 years ago
wingnut2280
Well put seldumonde. Nice debate Tobias. I enjoyed it.
Posted by seldumonde 9 years ago
seldumonde
The only way Hillary holds Republican ideals is if you consider the only issue to be Iraq. Don't know about you, but I think there's a little more than that to Republican ideals.

Hillary is a hard-core socialist Democrat. She favors high taxes, government takeover of health care, taking the profits of corporations, unfettered abortion rights, and a weak foreign policy. She is largely a big government, nanny-state fascist in every regard.

If that describes a Republican, then I'm guessing you've never met one.
Posted by Tobias_Berenson 9 years ago
Tobias_Berenson
this was my fuirst run, and i got this topic on a forum. so thanks for debating!
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