The Instigator
Idontcare
Pro (for)
Losing
23 Points
The Contender
SolaGratia
Con (against)
Winning
51 Points

Hillary Clinton is not a bad canidate

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 2/12/2008 Category: Politics
Updated: 9 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 2,471 times Debate No: 2575
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (12)
Votes (22)

 

Idontcare

Pro

I have left the table wide open.... my opponent simply has to argue that Hillary Clinton is a horrible choice for the U.S. president
SolaGratia

Con

SolaGratia forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 1
Idontcare

Pro

I would like to thank Sola Gratia for accepting the debate.
Now to start it off,

I feel That Hillary Clinton Would make a good President for two main reasons, her experience, and her views.
First off, Her Experience, besides her years of being the first lady Hillary has also served as the U.S. Senator to New York. I feel that experience is possibly the most important thing to look for in a candidate. Also experience is good in any line of work including politics, even though in most cases it makes a politician seem worse since eventually they have to cast a bad vote (I'm not referring to anything in particular) Experience is what helps them make less bad choices, not to say that it would make them perfect, but it helps.

I could go on for about three pages about her views, but I'll just highlight two of them to get thing started.
1.Healthcare, Although this may be the most over explained point on the democratic side, it may be the single most important item in this election, to most people Americas healthcare system has failed, it is almost impossible for low income families and people with pre-existing conditions to get healthcare, let alone affordable, And Obama's plan does nothing to help those who find it that hardest to get. Not to mention that the republicans, who don't offer any solution to this problem, and want to keep the tax cuts, but that's a different issue.

2.With rising oceans, and an ever shrinking amount of oil, the situation is starting to look very desperate, we need to do three things, lower the amount of electricity/ fossil fuels we use, increase funding in alternative cleaner fuel sources, and update our current electricity generation sources with renewable alternative ones, Hillary offers all of those things, for the most part, and more aggressively than Obama. The republicans are yet again siding with big business and offering solutions that don't really solve anything, free market energy, what is that exactly? Another way for big business to get their way over little ones? They don't even fund the research, who do they think will?
SolaGratia

Con

I believe that Hillary Clinton is a "bad" candidate. But frankly, the term "bad" is completely subjective and so logically this debate is impossible to win or lose, since "bad" is different for everyone.

But anyway: my personal definition of "bad" matches Hillary Clinton perfectly: she is deceptive and manipulative. She is a swindler. A con-woman. From cattle futures to HillaryCare to Bill, everything she's touched in this country has been ruined.

So, here are specific reasons why Hillary would be a "bad" president."

I. Her baggage. Hillary made much of the fact that her detractors have nothing "new" to throw at her, at least nothing as shady as Whitewatergate, Travelgate, etc. Well, she's wrong. What about that prominent Asian donor to the Clinton campaign who was arrested and convicted of election fraud last year? And anyway, she hasn't changed. If we elected her, we'd be electing Bill Clinton all over again, and that would be terrible.

II. I can understand and sympathize with the anti-war view, but Hillary has cynically manipulated it for her own good. First she was pro-war, then she was maybe, now the president swindled her. Whatever.

III. If she is not a "bad" candidate, she is a "good" candidate. A good candidate must have a good chance of winning. Well, according to the polls, both Barack Obama and John McCain have a larger chance of getting elected President. That should definitely be taken into account.

Thanks, and sorry again for missing the first argument.

Sola Gratia
Debate Round No. 2
Idontcare

Pro

Idontcare forfeited this round.
SolaGratia

Con

My opponent has failed to make the third argument, but that's okay because I failed to make the first. I can't really blame Idontcare for missing the argument; believe me, I know how schedules can get.

Well, Obama's clear superiority to Clinton is now highlighted more than ever by his wins in Wisconsin, my home state, and Hawaii. All the Democrats I know voted for Obama. In fact, it's unclear WHERE Mrs. Clinton's support was coming from.

Now let's turn to hard evidence: According to AP, many of the superdelegates who formerly supported Clinton even after she fell behind have been migrating towards Obama. (http://www.breitbart.com...)

According to RCP polls, Clinton has a fairly substantial lead in Ohio, but Obama is gaining momentum. In Texas, she's ahead by as little as one percentage point, but if Obama can draw even with her by the primary date, all bets are off. While I admit that she could still win both of these states, I still doubt it.

Here is the RCP polling data for a head-to-head matchup between Mrs. Clinton and John McCain. (http://www.realclearpolitics.com...)

According to this, McCain leads her in most polls by about 5%. As a Republican, it hurts to admit, but if a Democrat can't beat a Republican THIS election year, they will never be able to again. And especially John McCain. Honestly, he's less appealing than Hillary Clinton, and neither of them has ANYTHING on the charm and charisma of Obama. Let's face it, Obama is a rock star.

In a presidential race, it's up to the voters, and so far, they want Obama. I may have to eat my words later, but I still think Clinton is more of a liability to the Democrats than it appears. Voters want the 90s and its scandals dead and gone already! As a veritable mascot for the graft and corruption that composed the Clinton administration (selling pardons, stealing White House furniture, Whitewatergate, Travelgate, Cattle futures, Monica, etc., etc., etc.) Hillary is a phantom from the past.

Thanks,

Sola Gratia.
Debate Round No. 3
Idontcare

Pro

Idontcare forfeited this round.
SolaGratia

Con

Well, I've stated my case strongly, and there's not much more I can say.

First of all, though, I'm sorry that my opponent missed the arguments. I don't blame him, really, because (A) I missed one too, and (B) I know how schedules can get. Still, I would like to have trounced him fairly.

It seems a little petty, but I notice that my opponent isn't arguing that Hillary Clinton is not a bad candidate, but that she is a bad "canidate." I'm not sure exactly what this word means, but I will endeavor to disprove BOTH arguments. ;)

In the last few days, Clinton's last-ditch attempts to stop the Obama storm have gotten nastier and nastier. First off, she lambasted Obama for mailers against her that regarded health care-her forte, and then she "leaked" photos of Obama with a turban on. Although she denies this. We all know what the Clintons are capable of. Who knows what else they have on Obama?

Hillary plays dirty. She is NOT, I repeat NOT a good candidate for president. Obama's stand on the issues is better than hers for Democrats, and she is despicable personally. She polls behind McCain, which seems incredible in this election, and unless she pulls up a little bit, her campaign is doomed. For all these things and more, Hillary Clinton is a "bad" candidate.
Debate Round No. 4
12 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Mangani 9 years ago
Mangani
I don't think Hillary is a bad canidate, but I do think she is a bad candidate (jaja, I know it was a typo! relax!)

No, but seriously, we need something different in the White House. We've had Bush for a total of 20 years! GHWB as VP for 8, GHWB as Pres for 4, CLINTONS for 8, and Lil' Bush for another 8. The thought of another Dynastic Presidency is sickening- especially given the fact that this is supposed to be a representative democracy. Only 4 qualified representatives of 300million people over the past 28 years???

Furthermore I don't think HC has the experience she somehow manages to claim she has- 35years??? Ok... so we're counting her time in the private sector, right? Well, if we discount her work for CORPORATIONS, and just count Public Service- she has 15years to Obama's 23 years- yet she claims he doesn't have experience.

On top of that, GWB had the most experienced Administration in history, and they have made the worse diplomatic mistakes in history! So, yeah, I prefer the guy who is willing to talk to Raul Castro- who, by the way, is a pushover and a punk compared to Fidel- over the chick who agrees with Billy The Kid over how to deal with foreign leaders who's names he can't even pronounce...
Posted by SolaGratia 9 years ago
SolaGratia
So, because I support(ed) Thompson, I'm hypocritical in saying that Clinton is a bad candidate? Riiight. What are you smoking? We're not talking about who I support, we're talking about who I don't support: Clinton. Can't you see that who I supported in the past has NOTHING to do with what I'm debating now?

Yes, polls do matter. And face it, New Hampshire is ancient history. Remember Iowa, where Clinton came third? Remember the EIGHT STRAIGHT states that Obama has won with comfortable margins THAT THE POLLS INDICATED. Honestly, polls matter.

I stand by what I said earlier: you've added nothing to this debate. In fact, you didn't really try to refute anything. Instead, you called my arguments "terrible." Love the use of logic there, blondie.
Posted by blond_guy 9 years ago
blond_guy
By the way, seems like you're also forfeiting you're third round and if you do, this goes to pro. Sorry, but you'll lose.
Posted by blond_guy 9 years ago
blond_guy
<<Honestly, does who I support in the presidential race, other than Hillary, have anything to do with the strength of my arguments? Of course not.>>

No, but it has something to do with the hypocrisy of your arguments.

<<Polls DO matter>>

Oh yeah, that's right! They mattered so much in New Hampshire where Obama was expected to win by 10%.

<<Hillary COULD win Ohio and Texas, but Obama has won EIGHT STRAIGHT STATES. I think Clinton's campaign will just fizzle, like Giuliani's did when he concentrated on the later, bigger prize of Florida. My prediction: Barack Obama will be the next president of the United States, for better or for worse.>>

And how does this make Hillary a bad candidate?

<<Thanks for contributing absolutely nothing to this debate.>>

Listen, don't play stupid Republican with me, I was just making points and speaking my opinion on Hillary Clinton. Only because I didn't say what you want me to say doesn't mean you get a free ticket to go accusing me of whatever you want.
Posted by SolaGratia 9 years ago
SolaGratia
Blond guy: And I thought blond jokes were misplaced. Honestly, does who I support in the presidential race, other than Hillary, have anything to do with the strength of my arguments? Of course not.

I respect the rights of people to change their minds about anything. However, Hillary Clinton has done it with the clear goal of manipulating public opinion. Face it. She has not changed on PRINCIPLE (if she had, she would have opposed the war from the start like Edwards and Obama) but by cynicism. She chooses the view her pollsters think is the most popular.

Polls mean nothing? Really? Has it ever occurred to you that our election is, in effect, a poll? Polls DO matter, and for a candidate to be "not bad," he or she must do well in them. It is generally accepted that polls, even if they're over-hyped, DO matter. ESPECIALLY in a presidential campaign. This is SO UTTERLY obvious.

My former support of Thompson has nothing to do with this debate. As you will notice, I am not arguing that he is the best candidate. I am arguing that Hillary Clinton IS a bad candidate. Kindly take the time to read the debate.

Hillary COULD win Ohio and Texas, but Obama has won EIGHT STRAIGHT STATES. I think Clinton's campaign will just fizzle, like Giuliani's did when he concentrated on the later, bigger prize of Florida. My prediction: Barack Obama will be the next president of the United States, for better or for worse.

Frankly, your comment is idiotic, and it could have all been compressed into a vote for pro. Thanks for contributing absolutely nothing to this debate.
Posted by blond_guy 9 years ago
blond_guy
solagratia, you already lost this debate by far. first you forfeit then u use invalid arguments. You're first only proves that Asian donor to be "bad", not Hillary. Your second is even worse, considering that millions of people were also for the war at first but then were against it after they realized they were fooled by Georgie Bush. Your third is incorrect. First of all polls mean nothing. You'd be saying that any candidate except for McCain and Obama is a bad candidate. But hey! You support Fred Thompson. When did he ever have a chance of winning any of the primaries? Secondly, the states to come (Texas, Ohio and so on) are states in which Hillary is very popular and her chance of winning the primaries are huge!

That's how quick I went through all your arguments. They're all terrible.
Posted by Idontcare 9 years ago
Idontcare
Sure no problem, I just wanted to give you the chance to open, otherewise it seems like the first person to go is always just defending their points and the second is never stating anything themselves.
Posted by SolaGratia 9 years ago
SolaGratia
I appear to have missed the first argument. Please accept my deepest apologies. I will not miss the other rounds, God willing. My schedule has been awful lately. Perhaps in your next argument, you could state your case.
Posted by Renzzy 9 years ago
Renzzy
I've been wrong before...
Posted by SolaGratia 9 years ago
SolaGratia
Yeah, I'm sorry. Things have been really piling up lately. I WILL respond tomorrow.
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