The Instigator
advidiun
Pro (for)
Losing
23 Points
The Contender
beem0r
Con (against)
Winning
28 Points

Hillary cannot win the election

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/2/2008 Category: Politics
Updated: 8 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 1,539 times Debate No: 3883
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (9)
Votes (13)

 

advidiun

Pro

Hillary clinton is simply not electable. she has been involved in countless scandals and has a very messy past. The way she treats employees is ridiculous many stories of her rudeness and inconsideration have popped up. she has a large fan base but obamas is bigger as is Mcains. Even if she wins the primaries Mcain will beat her in the election.
beem0r

Con

I'll get right on down to the reasons Hillary can win "The Election." I'll name each point, that way it'll be organized.

==================
The Flagrant Gelatin
==================
It was never specified which election we're talking about. For example, Hillary might lose the presidential election but succeed in getting reelected as a New York senator. In doing this, she would be winning the election. Not the presidential election, but the senatorial election.

==================
The Uncanny Koala
==================
Hillary's own image might not be as good as either of the other two possible 2008 Presidential candidates. However, many people love Bill Clinton and his politics. They know that with Hillary in office, they get Bill Clinton as an automatic policy adviser. He had one of the most successful Presidencies, so people will expect the same from Hillary.

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The Envenomed Basilisk
==================
Hillary's 'messy past' did not stop her from winning the 2006 Senatorial election [by a wide margin, too], so why would it stop her from winning the 2008 Presidential election?

==================
The Remorseful Corpse
==================
Hillary is a nominee for the 2008 Presidential candidacy. Since Obama does not have the majority of the nomination vote things, Hillary still has a chance to win that. And then she has a chance to win the election. My opponent already acknowledged that she might win the primaries. My opponent simply claims that if she does McCain will beat her. My opponent has not shown why it is impossible for her to win. If anything, he has shown that he doesn't think she is likely to win, or maybe even that she probably won't win. However, my opponent is supposed to be arguing that she CANNOT win. It's possible that she will win the 2008 Presidential Election.

That'll be all for now.
Debate Round No. 1
advidiun

Pro

Okay for the sake of simplicity i will start with your first point by simply saying that it was stupid. Obviously i was talking about the presidential election.

Your next point is that because of bill she might be expected to do well. clearly this has not helped her much so far seeing as she is losing. also people do not always think aboout bill as good. though admit he was a very good president not everyone agrees. last i would like to point out that people dont think of bill when talk about hillary.

As you pointed out hillary won the senetorial election but i would like to remind you that she was not running against as formidable opponents as Barrack Obam or John Mcain. also the presidential election is much bigger and in her previous campaigns people looked more at her politics then at the real Hillary.

Now for you final argument Barrack Obama has many more suppoters than hillary and he has the delegate lead. this will overule any nominee votes. and these things will not even matter in the general election. finally when i said she cannot win i didnt mean it was physically or mentally impossible. i simply meant she will not win. if your going to take everything i say so literally this is going to be a very long and annoying debate.
beem0r

Con

I'll drop the Flagrant Gelatin, since we all know which election is meant.

-------------------

To attack the Uncanny Koala, my opponent has simply stated that "it has not helped her much so far because she is losing" and "people don't like Bill Clinton that much anyway."

First, perhaps it has helped her so far. She may be losing , but she has not lost. This debate is not about whether she is currently losing, but whether she can in or not. She can win.

And Bill Clinton is very well-liked. Here's an excerpt from Wikipedia:
"Clinton remained popular with the public throughout his two terms as President, ending his presidential career with a 65% approval rating, the highest end-of-term approval rating of any President since Dwight D. Eisenhower. In addition to his political skills, Clinton also benefited from a boom of the US economy. Under Clinton, the United States had a projected federal budget surplus for the first time since 1969."

http://en.wikipedia.org...

Also, the Economy was great under Clinton, as is noted in the same article I just linked you.

-------------------

McCain and Obama are not that formidable. Obama has very little experience, there are rumors that he's Muslim [and people are afraid of that, even though he's not Muslim anyway], there's the whole mess with Rev. Jeremiah Wright, etc.

McCain looks weird [he really does], wants to continue the war for a long time, and is a republican [people don't really like republicans that much after Dubya].

Here's the gallup poll thing for both the democrats vs. McCain.
http://www.gallup.com...

As we see here, Clinton does BETTER against McCain.

She has the support of more of the democratic party for the general election, at least according to these most recent gallup polls.

-------------------

Yes, Obama has the delegate lead. He is winning. Surely that is not what this debate was supposed to be about: who's currently winning. It's a FACT that Obama is currently winning. It's not supposed to be about who's more likely to win either, since the debate would be "Hillary won't win the election" or "Hillary is less likely to win the election than Obama or McCain."

Based on the resolution, which my opponent made, I simply have to show a possibility of Clinton winning. I've gone above and beyond that, showing that she is actually _likely_ to win the general election, if she gets the democratic nomination, since the gallup polls grant her a
current 2% edge on McCain, compared the 0% edge Obama has.

Not only that, but Hillary has more experience than Obama, she has Bill, she has more democratic values than Obama, and she doesn't have ridiculous rumors flying around about her.

------------------------

My opponent conceded in Round 1 that it is at least possible for Hillary to win the Democratic nomination. ["Even if she wins the primaries McCain will beat her in the election."]
I have shown that Hillary in fact has an edge over McCain in the general election, where Obama does not.
I have shown various things people like better about Hillary than Obama, which give her the ability to possibly win the nomination.

I have shown that it is very possible for Hillary to win the election. My opponent blames me for taking his resolution 'literally,' but how else am I supposed to take it? If it says "Hillary cannot win the election," then that's what you have to argue. It's my opponent's fault if he didn't write what he meant to, it's not my fault for reading it like it is.
Debate Round No. 2
advidiun

Pro

This poll you looked at states that hillary had more chance of victory than mcain. what you have to realize is that mcain is a very moderate republican.so if hillary were to win the primaries many of obamas voters would flock to mcain. also polls mean almost nothing. i could look up at least a dozen polls that say mcain will win.

saying that mcain or obama are not formidable is ridiculous mcain has been a liked and respected senetor for longer than hillary. Obama is very new to politics and is already winning the election. Hillary is not far behind obama but shes losing supporters left and right.

You say that hillary has more democratic values than obama. i now ask....SO?
democratic values dont matter. i wouldnt vote for the most conservative candidate no matter what.if a complete radical had more democratic values all it means is that they are more liberal. and hillary is definitely a radical.

There are uncountable rumors about hillary. Obam has a few and a challenge you to find any REALISTIC evidence about mcain doing something wild or terrible. If you want evidence of hillary doing something like that go to barnes and nobles. there are more books about hillary being a complete idiot than all the other candidates combined.
beem0r

Con

My opponent first tries to argue against the poll I cited, showing that Hillary has more support than Obama if either of them were to face McCain, and that Hillary has more votes than McCain in a Hillary-McCain election.

First he argues that "mcain is a very moderate republican.so if hillary were to win the primaries many of obamas voters would flock to mcain"

However, the poll was made in a way that people were asked "In a McCain vs. Hillary election" and "In a McCain vs. Obama election" who would you vote for?
Note how McCain has 45% in both cases, Obama has 45% in his, and Hillary has 47%? Yeah, they don't add up to 100. They didn't just ask "Out of these three, who do you like?"

Then he claims that he could find at least a dozen polls saying McCain will win. First, I must ask, why did he not do just that? He could have at least matched what I gave, and provided ONE of the >11 polls he speaks of.
Second, I must say that the gallup poll is one of the most well-known and well-respected polls around. It's probably the only such poll many people actually know by name.

Alright, so at least by some standards, McCain and Obama are formidable. That does not change the fact that Hillary is also formidable, and I have shown that she definitely can win. We cannot rule her out yet, and that's just what PRO is arguing we should do, without giving us sufficient reasons why.

I suppose it doesn't matter that Hillary is more of a democrat than Obama either, other than the fact that it could help her with getting the democratic nomination, since the democratic voters tend to have democratic values.

Yes, there are some rumors about Hillary, though we can see absolutely ZERO of them mentioned in this debate. I must wonder - why? Did my opponent not know of any of these rumors? I actually don't know of any, though I'm sure they're out there. However, the fact of the matter is, Hillary still has a chance to win the election. That is what my opponent challenged me to show, and that's what I've shown. I've shown more than mere possibility, which is all I have to show based on the resolution, I've shown that it's not even improbable.

For great justice, vote CON.
Debate Round No. 3
9 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 9 records.
Posted by beem0r 8 years ago
beem0r
You get all the luck, don't you, L-M?
Posted by Logical-Master 8 years ago
Logical-Master
Oh yeah, forgot about the RFD

First, I would have been willing to vote on the Flagrant geletin. After all, all PRO does is say that it's stupid and he was clearly talking about the presedential election. Clearly a fallacy. However, CON drops admittely drops the jello, so I gotta overlook it.

My main reason to vote CON is that PRO allowed him the easiest position which is simply to show that Hilary's victory is realistically possible. Had PRO defined "cannot" as well as thrown in some debate theory (perhaps on who is to defend what), he could've won.
Posted by Logical-Master 8 years ago
Logical-Master
I agree with it being a hard one. Fortunately, my opponent didn't challenge me within the proper time, so I win. :D
Posted by beem0r 8 years ago
beem0r
Ouch, you got a pretty hard one though.
At least in my opinion. I guess it depends on what your opponent brings to the table.
Posted by beem0r 8 years ago
beem0r
Whoa, round 3 is posted? Sweet! Gonna go check it outtie.
Posted by Logical-Master 8 years ago
Logical-Master
On the bright side, you got the easiest topic for Round 3 of the tournament. :D
Posted by beem0r 8 years ago
beem0r
Unfortunately, you are correct.
Oh well, screw em.
Posted by Logical-Master 8 years ago
Logical-Master
Judging from the interest of the current voters on this site, I'd say that first point might encourage a certain crowd to vote against you automatically, beem0r. :(
Posted by b3rk 8 years ago
b3rk
The ad I saw when reading this page was "Should Hillary QUIT?? Vote Here Now!"
Lol.
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