The Instigator
1stLordofTheVenerability
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
BellumQuodPacis
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points

Historical Debate

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/19/2010 Category: Miscellaneous
Updated: 6 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 3,853 times Debate No: 12092
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (12)
Votes (0)

 

1stLordofTheVenerability

Con

Greetings to my opponent; Good luck and have fun!

The premise of this debate is that my opponent will select the topic to be debated. I do have some stipulations:
First of all, I wish that whatever the topic may be, it is relatively clean.
Secondly, I would appreciate it if this debate were on a controversial or debateable topic; it cannot be particularly pitched or one-sided.
Thirdly, it must be historical (dating before the 1980s).
Fourthly, it cannot be about morality or justification of one side over another in the American Civil War; I already debated this and want a different thread.

We will have 72 hours to debate and 8,000 characters per post.

Thanks and let us have a stellar debate!
BellumQuodPacis

Pro

Thank you 1stLord for initiating this debate as I am a huge historical aficionado.

The topic I wish to debate is: Without the US involvement in World War 2, the Allies (excluding US) would have surrendered and in turn, lost the war.

I will await my opponent's first argument and wish him the best of luck. Hope the topic is to your liking.

Thank you.
Debate Round No. 1
1stLordofTheVenerability

Con

Thanks for accepting, Pro!

Now I will debate that even if the USA did not aid in the war effort whatsoever, the Allies wouldn't surrender and then "Lose the war". I ask that the readers bear with me, as the US War contribution was substantial (in supplies, at the very least) and this will be a difficult argument. However, I am up to the challenge.

In order for this debate to remain plausible, the USA does have to "exist", if simply to function as a continental block that prevents the Japanese Navy from easily entering the Atlantic Ocean.

Now that these are clarified, let the debate begin!

I am firstly going to rule that Great Britain survived a whole year with no allies whatsoever. It could easily prevent Germany, Italy and Japan from entering the nation for decades.

Secondly, the USSR committed more men than the USA; the USSR was substantially more help to England.

Other Allies:

China (essential ally)

Canada (a crucial ally)

South Africa/Rhodesia

India

Brazil

France (Free French formed Three functional Corps and brought Two Moroccan and One Algerian Divisions into the War)

Australia

New Zealand

Mexico

Poland (Army Krajowa). And other Resistance Groups.

Adolph Hitler (Yes, Hitler himself turned out to be an unaware ally to the Allied cause by tampering with his military's decisions and maneouvers and creating internal confusion or strife where there wasn't any. He also utilized over 6,000 capable soldiers in guarding Jews and other prisoners in Concentration camps. some historians, such as Max Hastings, label Hitler as "The Allies most crucial inside man" for his laughable tampering and meddling with an otherwise formidable juggernaut.).

~

Great Britain stood absolutely alone for an entire year in the war; from 1940 to 1941. During this time, the Luftwaffe under Hermann G�ring mercilessly dropped hundreds of thousands of pounds of bombs on its integral cities. Yet, the Luftwaffe was soundly beaten in the Battle of Britain and eventually found that its night campaigns were becoming too costly to be sustainable, with little effect, since Great Britain also controlled the seas. By themselves, the English forced Hitler's General Staff to abort Operation Sea Lion.

*Note Great Britain achieved both Naval surface dominance and Air dominance without the aid of the USA or any other Ally.

In retaliation, the Bomber Barons (namely Sir Arthur Harris, Air Officer Commanding in Chief of RAF Bomber Command) initiated massive "area bombing campaigns" over Germany at night. the first of these occurred over Cologne in May 1942. It involved 1,000 RAF bombers and devastated Cologne. A total of 1,455 tons of explosive (with two-thirds of that load being incendiaries) was dropped. "498 Germans killed, 5,027 people were listed as injured and 45,132 as "bombed out". [1] These campaigns caused mass damage. In fact, though the USA helped with 24 hour bombing, they caused considerably less damage due to different practices. Hence, the USA is not an essential component to the RAF's bombing campaign. Every firestorm of the war was initially created by the RAF.

Great Britain destroyed Italian forces in North Africa while fighting alone. They then proceeded, by 1942, to defeat Rommel at the Second Battle of El Alamein. Montgomery's Eighth Army then rapidly advanced to Tripoli without the aid of any allies. The aid that the USA did lend in the war was of pitiable value. The Americans, fresh troops, lost heavily and gained little. The famous wager between Eisenhower and Montgomery regarding who would be first to reach Sfax, Tunisia. Montgomery, at the time, was still in Tripoli, Libya. On the other hand, Eisenhower's Army had deployed in tunisia and were a scant few hundred kilometres from Sfax. Yet, Montgomery and the Eighth beat eisenhower's 1st Army to Sfax and Montgomery demanded his B17. [2]

I will later expound upon England being the technological leader of the Allies.

So I have demonstrated that England could very well have stood alone and been supplied by Canada in a stalemate with Germany.

But they didn't have to. The mighty power of the USSR was brought into play. Stalin and the Soviet Red Army turned the tables at Stalingrad; the only pressure the other Allies had placed on Germany at the time was negligible (a few divisions fighting in Africa). The USSR could very well have been supplied by the Industrial War machine of Canada, rather than the United States. Most of the Red Army's small arms, all of the Red Army's tanks and most of its artillery were of Russian manufacture (especially the famed Rocket launchers that horrified and aggravated the Wehrmacht). The total number of casualties in the Red Army reached 8,800,000 to 10,700,000. This far surpasses tne entire dedication of soldiers that the USA committed. USA committed 8,157,386 by March of 1945. [3] While it is difficult to determine approximate numbers in the Red Army, they had another 2.5 million soldiers battling for Berlin alone in 1945. [4]

Next round I'm going to analyse numbers of active soldiers in certainty that the Allies without the USA will outnumber the Axis.

Now, you fellows will probably all be saying, "What about the Japs?" This is a valid question. The Chinese soldiers were divided by internal strife and civil war while the Japanese were an efficient force - at island hopping. The Japanese war machine was designed for naval conflict and island skirmishes. they could not fight against an organised opponent on lengthy land campaigns. The Japanese Army possessed roughly 2.5 million in personnel. The Chinese armies lost a guesstimated total of 5.6 million. Both the Chinese Nationalist and Communist Armies were fighting the Japanese and did manage to sustain them and slowly drive the back. In the meantime, the USSR drove the Japanese out of Manchuria and Australia kept the Japs off while England and India defended and assaulted from Burma.

Hence, not only could these Allies hold the Axis, but they could potentially destroy them without the USA (though it would have taken longer and more casualties).

[1]http://en.wikipedia.org...
[2]http://www.ibiblio.org...
[3] http://www.historyshots.com...
[4] http://en.wikipedia.org...
BellumQuodPacis

Pro

With only a little a bit of time remaining...I have no time to refute or respond. I was away at a JROTC camp. I apologize for the inconvenience and forfeit round 2. I apologize once again.
Debate Round No. 2
1stLordofTheVenerability

Con

1stLordofTheVenerability forfeited this round.
BellumQuodPacis

Pro

BellumQuodPacis forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
12 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by 1stLordofTheVenerability 6 years ago
1stLordofTheVenerability
Thanks. If you would like to challenge me to the next debate, I'll accept.
Posted by BellumQuodPacis 6 years ago
BellumQuodPacis
No problem i understand. Both forfeit. :D
Posted by 1stLordofTheVenerability 6 years ago
1stLordofTheVenerability
no no no, we'll both forfeit all the remaining arguments. Otherwise you'll attempt to sweep me away with a grand rebuttal. :P If it isn't agreeable, I'll make up an argument and we can continue here.
Posted by BellumQuodPacis 6 years ago
BellumQuodPacis
Well that sounds good. To make it even you forfeit third round and ill argue. Then we will start another debate. Sounds good?
Posted by 1stLordofTheVenerability 6 years ago
1stLordofTheVenerability
It's okay! If you're willing, we can both forfeit the next round and start afresh. Though i would possibly favour if the United states existed, just not as an Ally. Otherwise my position is somewhat untenable.
Posted by BellumQuodPacis 6 years ago
BellumQuodPacis
Im sooo Sorry. We will have to debate this again.
Posted by Zetsubou 6 years ago
Zetsubou
Russians.
Posted by Miles_Finch 6 years ago
Miles_Finch
Sorry about not being online. I was on different sities for a few months jumping around. Want to Pojo fourms then to Smogon, and other fourms not really doing much but I got bored and came back here.
Posted by 1stLordofTheVenerability 6 years ago
1stLordofTheVenerability
Good to have you back, Miles! Thanks for the consideration; it's going to be a difficult premise for me. Public sentiment will also favour Pro. I welcome the challenge. :D
Posted by Miles_Finch 6 years ago
Miles_Finch
Sorry I have been away for so long. I will be watching this debate. I will hold all opinions before and during the debate and not until after.
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