The Instigator
STALIN
Pro (for)
Winning
13 Points
The Contender
nikeats
Con (against)
Losing
4 Points

Hitler was Worse than Stalin

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 3 votes the winner is...
STALIN
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/1/2013 Category: People
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,494 times Debate No: 41506
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (5)
Votes (3)

 

STALIN

Pro

After voting on this poll (http://www.debate.org...), I decided to make this debate.

Round one is for acceptance.
nikeats

Con

My argument is that Stalin was worse than Hitler. But I am assuming that the question focuses on violence and evil nature.
Although Hitler's name is forever going to be remembered with the holocaust and the ethnic and social cleansing that occurred during the Nazi regime, Stalin was not much better, as he had forced famines on the Ukrainians and his own Russian people, as well as committing genocide. It is arguable that Hitler is more of a 'human' than Stalin. But, the underlying issue is the different ideologies, beliefs and regimes. Hitler believed in a pure Germany, and was supportive to real Germans. Whilst Stalin was only supportive to the people that supported Stalin. Also, Stalin killed many more people than Hitler did.

Stalin was determined to be the Russian leader despite Lenin's desire that someone else be selected, preferably Trotsky. Any person that interfered or opposed Stalin was eliminated using dirty and deceitful tactics. Also, Stalin's purges of politicians and prominent social figures to keep his position as leader was evil in nature.
Before World War 2, Stalin had executed many people, resulting in the deaths of many million Russians.

Stalin used civilians and members of the military to clear land mines by walking through the minefield. He would also force them to the front lines even without weapons. Those that went forward were massacred , and those that turned back were executed by their own comrades. After the war Stalin continued his crimes against his own people. Stalin had to make a choice between industrialization of the Soviet Union, or reinvent his agricultural program. Stalin chose industrialization, which resulted into millions of deaths of his own people. Stalin used gulags and psychiatric hospitals to remove his opposition. He did not care about his people, he cared about the success of his country's industrial and economic aspects.
Hitler's programs were not directed against his own people. He was determined to remove his enemies, but he did not direct his killing against his own German people.

Sources - http://www.nybooks.com...
Debate Round No. 1
STALIN

Pro

OK, now didn't I say that round one is for acceptance? That means that in round one you only say "I accept" and nothing else.

I will refute Con's anyway.

"Hitler believed in a pure Germany, and was supportive to real Germans. Whilst Stalin was only supportive to the people that supported Stalin. Also, Stalin killed many more people than Hitler did."

OK, that is complteley incorrect. Hitler did NOT support real Germans. Jews are real Germans. Homosexuals were real Germans. Disabled people were real Germans. Did he support them? No, he killed them. Also, Con does not bother to say how many people Stalin and Hitler killed, he just says that Stalin killed more. I will state how many people the two dictators killed.



Number of people Stalin killed: 20-60 million (20 million is the most widely accepted number).
Number of people Hitler killed: 20-30 million.

*Note: these numbers don't include the soldiers killed in combat during WWII.

However numbers alone don't explain who was worse. Mao Zedong was possibly responsible for the death of more people than either Hitler or Stalin. In the great famine alone, around 40 million Chinese people died.

One of the biggest differences between Hitler and Stalin is that while most of the people Stalin killed were people living in the USSR, most of the people Hitler killed were people living in other countries.

Some statistics on the people Hitler killed:

6 million Polish civilians

12 million Soviet civilians

6 million Jews

In addition to this, millions of allied POW's (including some 3 million Red Army soldiers) died in German POW camps.

Reasons Hitler killed people:

-Because he considered them inferior.

Hitler believed that Jews and other people who were not "Aryan" were inferior to the German master race. The people who Hitler considered to be Aryan were mostly people living in eastern Europe, especially Poles and Soviets. There were also multiple "minority groups" that Hitler killed .

-Because he considered them to be useless.

This was especially true with disabled people. Those who were not capable slaves for the Reich had to be killed.

-In order to help destroy opposition.

This applies to all dictators. Hitler took power by destroying all opposition.

Reasons Stalin killed people:

-Because he was paranoid and feared betrayal.

This was especially true with Stalin's great purges. Many Red Army and political officials were purged because Stalin feared betrayal.

-Stalin's collectivization starved millions of people.

Stalin believed that in order to make the USSR industrialized and powerful, he needed to take food grown by peasant farmers and sell it in cities.

-In order to destroy opposition.

This applies to all dictators. Stalin took power by destroying all opposition.

The difference:

The main difference you notice is that Hitler killed people because he did not like them and Stalin killed people who he considered to be "threats".

People Hitler did not like:

-Jews

-Communists

-Gypsy's

-Homosexuals

-The disabled

-Other minority groups

People that Stalin considered threats:

-Everybody, even his the people closest to him. According to Stalin, anybody could be a threat.

The obvious:

Hitler killed people who he did not like. Stalin killed people who his paranoid mind thought were threats. In other words, Hitler killed millions of people because he thought they were inferior. Stalin killed millions of people because he was paranoid and thought they were threats. Some people Stalin that Stalin killed, he killed because they were threats. One such example was the Kulaks in Ukraine. Stalin had a reason to kill the people he killed. Hitler simply killed people because he didn't like them.

New Argument: OK, now as I stated above, Hitler killed 20-30 million people. Most of those people were killed in four years, between 1941-1945. Hitler's Concentration Camps for example, only came up to full speed iin late 1943 and 1944. Hitler was in power for 12 years. Stalin on the other hand was in power for 28 years. From this you can conclude that Hitler killed people at a much faster rate than Stalin. Therefor, the fact that Stalin killed more says nothing.

"Stalin was determined to be the Russian leader despite Lenin's desire that someone else be selected, preferably Trotsky."

And there were many people who would rather have had a different German leader as opposed to Hitler.

"Any person that interfered or opposed Stalin was eliminated using dirty and deceitful tactics."


Hitler did the exact same thing. Therefor, this is not an argument.

"Also, Stalin's purges of politicians and prominent social figures to keep his position as leader was evil in nature."


Like I stated earlier, this was due to the fact that Stalin was paranoid about people being a threat.

"Stalin used civilians and members of the military to clear land mines by walking through the minefield."

I'm not sure about the accuracy of this statement. However Hitler did the exact same thig.

"He would also force them to the front lines even without weapons."


Yes, there were some cases where the Red Army lacked weapons and were soldiers had to pick up the weapons of other soldiers who had already died. However is attempting to defeat the Germans a crime?

"Hitler's programs were not directed against his own people. He was determined to remove his enemies, but he did not direct his killing against his own German people."


There were many Jews that were "Hitler's own people". They did not try to overthrow or undermine Hitler. But they were still eliminated.




Conclusion: Hitler killed people at a much faster rate than Stalin. Hitler also killed people for complete different reasons. Stalin killed people who were definite or possible threats. Hitler simply killed anybody who was inferior, and most people who were not German were inferior. Stalin did not care about race. As long as people did as he said, he was fine.


Con's only real argument so far was that Stalin killed more people than Hitler.


Sources:

http://www.cyberussr.com...

nikeats

Con

"Jews are real Germans. Homosexuals were real Germans. Disabled people were real Germans".
In Hitler's mind, this is not the case. It's almost as if saying Russians are real Australians. It is all down to a matter of perception. As we know, Hitler believed the perfect and pure German had only German bloodline and Genes.

"These numbers don't include the soldiers killed in combat during WWII.... However numbers alone don't explain who was worse"
As Stalin once said, "one death is a tragedy, one million is a statistic". Also, Stalin's attitude in the war was carelessness and recklessness and bad leadership. The Soviet's did not plan effectively on tactics, and lost millions of soldiers. Stalin's policy on "no retreat" is not courageous, it is plain carelessness of his soldiers, and sending them to fight without weapons, knowing that they will die, shows just how immoral and inhumane Stalin was. This high casualty rate is Stalin's fault, as he had purged the great army leaders because of "his paranoia". Shouldn't a good leader put personal aside and focus on protecting his country and his people. Although Hitler killed many Jewish, Polish or any ethnicity he did not like for personal reasons, he did look after his favored people and cultures, and did not let them starve to death with famine like Stalin did.

"Because he considered them (disable people) to be useless."
I do not want to sound immoral or to sound like a monster, but what use does a disabled person have in society, especially during Hitler and Stalin's era; a time of hard labor and a hard life. Nowadays, we have workers to support disabled people, to give them a chance, but back then, a disabled person was a burden on society, and Hitler recognized this. You can't send a disabled person to fight a war, to work in the factories, to work in the fields or to work in general. Hitler, during his time, was reasonably justified in the removal of disabled people.

"Hitler took power by destroying all opposition."
I agree with this, but Stalin took the meaning "destroy all opposition" to a new level, essentially removing majority of opposition, and removing much of his own party. Hitler did remove opposition to come to power, but he did it legally by bending the rules and manipulating the system, as well as gaining majority of the support, even though it was through propaganda. Stalin, on the other hand, removed much opposition through the purges, with murder and imprisonment.

"Because he was paranoid and feared betrayal."
Does this not make Stalin insane, to kill people because he 'feared' betrayal. Hitler feared betrayal, but only purged when he was betrayed. As seen with the night of the long knives, the purging of the corrupt politicians and prominent figures. Stalin, in contrast, killed innocent people because of his 'fear' of betrayal, as seen with the forced famine in Ukraine, where he killed millions of innocent people because he believed that they will rise against him. Yes, Hitler did millions of innocent people also, but not because he feared betrayal, he wanted a better and purer Germany, he wanted the best for "his people".

"Stalin's collectivization starved millions of people... Stalin believed that in order to make the USSR industrialized and powerful, he needed to take food grown by peasant farmers and sell it in cities."
Yes, true, he did starve millions of his own people, his own working class, though forced collectivization. Stalin had a choice, focus on Russia's working class and its agriculture, or to further industrialize Russia. Stalin sold goods not only to the cities, but overseas, fueling the industrial effort, whilst starving the working class. Hitler, balanced the collectivization of agriculture and industrialization. Satisfying the economy, and bringing Germany out of an enormous economic and social depression, and turning it into a strong, patriotic nation, giving the German citizens a good life and new hope after the devastating effects of the Treaty of Versailles and the great depression in Germany. Hitler did good for his people, and revived Germany, whilst satisfying the Treaty of Versailles, and building Germany into an economic superpower. Stalin, let his people starve to death, and turned the once great Russia, into a social, political and economic mess; despite his propaganda efforts.

"Soldiers had to pick up the weapons of other soldiers who had already died."
Russia lost millions of soldiers, men lost friends, if the effect of the war isn't bad enough, Stalin's bad leadership forced people to pick up their dead comrades weapon, from their dead body; and realize, that he is also going to die. They were mentally scarred, and had no will to fight, but could not turn back, because their mother Russia was not a friend, it was another enemy, ready to kill them if they turned back.

"However is attempting to defeat the Germans a crime?"
Good point, it is all in the spirit of war. But, if a leader does not have good tactics, not enough weapons and not enough supplies to fuel the war effort, then isn't the right choice to save the lives of millions of men, who have families and friends, instead of carelessly sending them to fight without supplies and weapons, knowing that they will die. When Hitler realized he had lost the war, he had ordered the Germans to stop fighting, to prevent more loss of life, and to protect civilians. Doesn't this make Hitler better than Stalin, the fact that Hitler still had some value of human life, and was willing to demolish his pride for the better of the German soldiers and citizens, compared to Stalin valuing his fabricated pride, and sending millions of soldiers to their death, to take Germany, without a care for his own people.

"There were many Jews that were "Hitler's own people".
No, the Jewish were not Hitler's people.

"They did not try to overthrow or undermine Hitler. But they were still eliminated."
Stalin did the same, but with his own people.
Debate Round No. 2
STALIN

Pro

"In Hitler's mind, this is not the case. It's almost as if saying Russians are real Australians. It is all down to a matter of perception. As we know, Hitler believed the perfect and pure German had only German bloodline and Genes."

So what Con is saying is that Hitler decided who lives and who dies. If Hitler suddenly decided that Christians were not real Germans, he would kill all the Christians. If Hitler doesn't like a group of people, he kills them. Don't you find that interesting? Simply because Hitler doesn't like people, he kills them. Stalin at least had a good reason to kill the people he killed and that reason was that the people who Stalin killed were either actual threats or possible threats.

"As Stalin once said, "one death is a tragedy, one million is a statistic". Also, Stalin's attitude in the war was carelessness and recklessness and bad leadership. The Soviet's did not plan effectively on tactics, and lost millions of soldiers. Stalin's policy on "no retreat" is not courageous, it is plain carelessness of his soldiers, and sending them to fight without weapons, knowing that they will die, shows just how immoral and inhumane Stalin was. This high casualty rate is Stalin's fault, as he had purged the great army leaders because of "his paranoia"."

OK, Con seems to have found a quote thinking that a quote will support his position. Its one thing to say, a complete different thing to actually do. That quote could support Hitler just as much as it supports Stalin. Didn't Hitler also kill many of millions of people? Then Con talks about how Stalin's leadership led to heavy losses in WWII. I will counter this by saying that Hitler's leadership and Hitler's mistakes led to Germany's defeat.

"Although Hitler killed many Jewish, Polish or any ethnicity he did not like for personal reasons, he did look after his favored people and cultures, and did not let them starve to death with famine like Stalin did."

OK, that is a complete lie. Millions of Ukrainians, Dutch, French, etc. people were starving under German occupation. So Con's assumption that only Stalin starved people is completely untrue. And these millions of people who were starving in occupied countries did not include the millions of people who starved in Concentration Camps. In addition to this, Hitler's reasons for killing the people he killed were not personal at all. His ideology led Hitler to believe that those people were the source of Germany's problems. Nazism controlled the decisions that Hitler made.

"I do not want to sound immoral or to sound like a monster, but what use does a disabled person have in society, especially during Hitler and Stalin's era; a time of hard labor and a hard life. Nowadays, we have workers to support disabled people, to give them a chance, but back then, a disabled person was a burden on society, and Hitler recognized this. You can't send a disabled person to fight a war, to work in the factories, to work in the fields or to work in general. Hitler, during his time, was reasonably justified in the removal of disabled people."

I would agree with your reason on this one. Hitler was somewhat justified in killing the disabled. However the disabled were less than 1% of the total people he killed. Therefor, this is a small argument to support your case.

"I agree with this, but Stalin took the meaning "destroy all opposition" to a new level, essentially removing majority of opposition, and removing much of his own party. Hitler did remove opposition to come to power, but he did it legally by bending the rules and manipulating the system, as well as gaining majority of the support, even though it was through propaganda. Stalin, on the other hand, removed much opposition through the purges, with murder and imprisonment."

Stalin removed much of his own party because much of his own party was against him. Therefor, that is called "opposition". Hitler removed opposition by bending rules and manipulating the system? Stalin did the same. Con says that Hitler came to power legaly. Hitler came to power legaly by lying to the people and scarying his rivals. He killed sent the entire Communist party to Concentration camps. His police killed anybody who opposed him. And Con is saying that Hitler came to power legaly. Either Con is a Nazi, or he has read too much Nazi propaganda.

"Does this not make Stalin insane, to kill people because he 'feared' betrayal. Hitler feared betrayal, but only purged when he was betrayed. As seen with the night of the long knives, the purging of the corrupt politicians and prominent figures. Stalin, in contrast, killed innocent people because of his 'fear' of betrayal, as seen with the forced famine in Ukraine, where he killed millions of innocent people because he believed that they will rise against him. Yes, Hitler did millions of innocent people also, but not because he feared betrayal, he wanted a better and purer Germany, he wanted the best for "his people"."

Its difficult to see what Hitler WANTED for his people. But its easy to see what he GAVE them.


Berlin: 1945

Now Stalin also wanted the best for his people. And He sure did a better job of giving them the best.

Moscow: Victory Parade - 1945

Pro stated that Hitler wanted the best for his people. Is attacking the world "the best for his people?" Clearly, Hitler cared only about his power, not about his people. The same can be largely said about Stalin, however as the pictures above show, Hitler was leading his nation to destruction while Stalin was actually doing something besides killing Jews and homosexuals.

Conclusion: Con's two main arguments so far have been that Stalin killed more people than Hitler and that Hitler supported and wanted the best for his people. I have refuted the first argument by saying that Hitler killed people at a MUCH faster rate than Stalin. I refuted Con's second argument by stating that Hitler only led his nation to destruction. My first main argument was that Hitler killed people for no reason. Stalin had a good reason. Also, Hitler killed faster.
nikeats

Con

nikeats forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
STALIN

Pro

Con FF. Hitler was much worse. He killed people senselessly while Stalin had a reason for killing the people he killed. Anyway, I win I think.
nikeats

Con

nikeats forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
5 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
Posted by RepublicanMan 2 years ago
RepublicanMan
Now while both Dictators were wrong, Hitler was right off the bat the one who killed people out of blatant ignorance, believing that he was doing the 'right things'. Remember all of the Jews he killed? Remember all of the countries he Occupied? And for what?

Hitler was a power hungry Austrian who took over the German Military after being a successful Politician in German Parliament. Which he then formed the ReichStag [Nazi Parliament] to implement his new ideals into a legitimate government: Fascism. Hitler then became a Fascist Dictator leading the Nazi Regime to conquer: Poland, Holland, Ethiopia [Conquered by Axis Italy], England [Some parts] and several other major trade depots in the European region. Hitler had no reason but his own ignorant beliefs for killing the people he did.

While on the other hand, Stalin, a Russian Dictator, lead Russia to conquer the German Nazis. Russia was the country leading the final invasion of Nazi Occupied Territory with England, Poland, Spain, The US and some other countries by their side. Stalin ended the Nazi Party for the time being and caused Fascist Germany to economically collapse. Their Military was too weak to fight and thus also collapsed. Seeing that he was screwed over, Hitler killed his family and then committed suicide to avoid painful death by the Soviet Russian Army.

Stalin not only had killed the people he did with good reason, but lead Nazi Germany into defeat. Which shows that Stalin is a better tactician and more cunning [as well as sly] then Adolf Hitler, which is saying quite a lot. It is interesting to me that people work more often to defend Hitler's brutal arrogance, then defend the Dictators running on Communism that actually knew what they were doing, since they were no political airheads overwhelmed by disease, drugs and ignorance. Hitler tuned a blind eye and went too far.

Remember the story of Anne Frank? Yeah, explain to me how there was a reason for her arrest and then death in Bergen-
Posted by RepublicanMan 2 years ago
RepublicanMan
Now while both Dictators were wrong, Hitler was right off the bat the one who killed people out of blatant ignorance, believing that he was doing the 'right things'. Remember all of the Jews he killed? Remember all of the countries he Occupied? And for what?

Hitler was a power hungry Austrian who took over the German Military after being a successful Politician in German Parliament. Which he then formed the ReichStag [Nazi Parliament] to implement his new ideals into a legitimate government: Fascism. Hitler then became a Fascist Dictator leading the Nazi Regime to conquer: Poland, Holland, Ethiopia [Conquered by Axis Italy], England [Some parts] and several other major trade depots in the European region. Hitler had no reason but his own ignorant beliefs for killing the people he did.

While on the other hand, Stalin, a Russian Dictator, lead Russia to conquer the German Nazis. Russia was the country leading the final invasion of Nazi Occupied Territory with England, Poland, Spain, The US and some other countries by their side. Stalin ended the Nazi Party for the time being and caused Fascist Germany to economically collapse. Their Military was too weak to fight and thus also collapsed. Seeing that he was screwed over, Hitler killed his family and then committed suicide to avoid painful death by the Soviet Russian Army.

Stalin not only had killed the people he did with good reason, but lead Nazi Germany into defeat. Which shows that Stalin is a better tactician and more cunning [as well as sly] then Adolf Hitler, which is saying quite a lot. It is interesting to me that people work more often to defend Hitler's brutal arrogance, then defend the Dictators running on Communism that actually knew what they were doing, since they were no political airheads overwhelmed by disease, drugs and ignorance. Hitler tuned a blind eye and went too far.

Remember the story of Anne Frank? Yeah, explain to me how there was a reason for her arrest and then death in Bergen-
Posted by nikeats 3 years ago
nikeats
http://www.spiegel.de...

Source for my round 2
Posted by STALIN 3 years ago
STALIN
Stalin > Hitler
Posted by Anti-atheist 3 years ago
Anti-atheist
wtf ffuck stalin
3 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Vote Placed by KingDebater 2 years ago
KingDebater
STALINnikeatsTied
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Total points awarded:60 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro didn't forfeit, and backed up his facts and statistics with sources.
Vote Placed by Gs325jcbd 2 years ago
Gs325jcbd
STALINnikeatsTied
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Total points awarded:61 
Reasons for voting decision: both did good job. Pro gave good ways to show how hitler was worse than stalin with supporting details. Con also showed how stalin was worse because of the things he said.
Vote Placed by imabench 2 years ago
imabench
STALINnikeatsTied
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Total points awarded:13 
Reasons for voting decision: Even though he forfeited the last two rounds, con still showed that Stalin killed significantly more people for no good reason than Hitler did. Arguments to the con, but conduct does go to the pro for the forfeits.