The Instigator
brian_eggleston
Pro (for)
Winning
44 Points
The Contender
YonRoku
Con (against)
Losing
43 Points

Hitler went to Heaven

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/29/2009 Category: Religion
Updated: 8 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 3,933 times Debate No: 6684
Debate Rounds (2)
Comments (15)
Votes (16)

 

brian_eggleston

Pro

For those unfamiliar with The Lord's Prayer, it is a sort of poem written by some bloke called Matthew (or it could have been Mark) years ago and the ancient scribes liked it so much they agreed to publish it in the Bible. If you haven't heard it before, it goes like this:

Our Father, which art in heaven,
hallowed be thy name;
thy kingdom come;
thy will be done,
in earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our trespasses,
as we forgive them that trespass against us.
And lead us not into temptation;
but deliver us from evil.
For thine is the kingdom,
the power, and the glory,
For ever and ever.
Amen.

So, according to the Lord's Prayer, God is all forgiving. There is also something about this somewhere else in the Bible, so it must be true. Therefore, it must follow that God forgave Hitler's many trespasses against his fellow man and the former Nazi dictator is up in Heaven having a wail of a time right now.

In fact, thinking about it, God probably gave Hitler extra privileges because he killed so many Jews, and it was the Jews that killed His son (Jesus).

Yes, no doubt about it, Christians should definitely expect to bump into Hitler when they go up to Heaven.
YonRoku

Con

>I thank Brian_Eggleston for starting this debate. I hope that it will be a good one.

>Brian has made the assertion that Hitler (I am assuming Adolf Hitler) went to heaven (I assume religious a reference; I will treat this as Christian). To win this debate, we will have to prove this. I will start off with some basic definitions.

>Adolf Hitler: the Austrian-born German politician and the leader of the National Socialist German Workers Party (German: Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei, abbreviated NSDAP), also known as the Nazi Party; the ruler of Germany from 1933 to 1945, serving as Chancellor from 1933 to 1945 and as head of state (F�hrer und Reichskanzler) from 1934 to 1945

>Heaven: an afterlife (often held to exist in another realm) in various religions and spiritual philosophies, often described as the holiest possible place

>Went: past tense of go

>Go: move to or from a place

>I hope that these definitions are acceptable. I will now move on to Brian's arguments.

>To start Brian gives us a passage, commonly referenced, from the Holy Bible. It came specifically from Matthew 6:9 to Matthew 6:13 (http://www.worldprayers.org...). He then goes on to claim that the verses say that God is all-forgiving. Additionally, he adds that Adolf Hitler would gain extra privleges due to the crowd which he killed (Jews).

>There are 4 flaws in Brian's argument. They are as follows.

(1) They are under the grand assumption that heaven exists. As he has not proved this, he cannot have proved Hitler's going to heaven true.

(2) Even if we are to assume that heaven exists, Brian has not proved that God exists.

(3) Even if we are to assume that both heaven and God exist, Brian has not proved that the Holy Bible is entirely true. He says, "there is also something about this somewhere else in the Bible, so it must be true." Next, he is asking us to assume that the God (who may not exist) follows the commands of earthlings. The bible verses clearly command God,
"Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our trespasses..."
Matthew (who may not be existent either, but I will let that go) is clearly commanding God to be forgiving. These verses NEVER SAY THAT GOD COMPLIES.

Additionally, Hitler gains no extra privileges even under the above assumptions. While the so-called God may not particularly like the death of his son, he is also supposedly omnibenevolent, meaning that he would have no particular vendetta against the Jews.

(4) The most fatal flaw in Brian's list of arguments, even under the grandiose assumption that all of the above are true, is that Hitler did not go to heaven. Go, again, is defined as "move to or from a place." Hitler, by this definition, never WENT to heaven. This would require moving, "to change position or location," though Adolf Hitler's ashes still lie in the Elbe River (http://www.absoluteastronomy.com...). Whether or not they WILL go to heaven is irrelevant due to the past tense used in the word "went."

>So, as you can clearly deduce from the above, Adolf Hitler clearly did not go to heaven. Your vote should be for CON.

>Good luck to Brian_Eggleston in his closing arguments. Thank you.
Debate Round No. 1
brian_eggleston

Pro

With many thanks to YonRoku for taking this debate, I should like to accept his definitions and reply to his arguments in turn as follows:

1 – Proof that Heaven exists

All the major world religions have the notion of an afterlife as a central tenant of their doctrines. It could be that four fifths of the world's population are wrong in believing in this concept, and that the idea of a spirit world for the righteous is an archaic way for humans to reconcile themselves with their own mortality. Or it could be they are right. Either way, it can't be proved so shall we just call this one a draw?

2 – Proof that God exists

Again, most religions are based on the worship of all-powerful deities. Given that these gods are numerous and competing with each other for worshipers, you might think that the real one would step forward and perform some sort of miracle to conclusively prove to the world that He is the real McCoy and all the others are false idols. Otherwise, you might listen to the preachers that tell you that God would perform such a miracle, but He can't really be bothered at the moment and that you should just have faith. Either way, it's not possible to prove or disprove His existence so can we agree to halve the spoils on this one as well?

3 – Proof that the Bible is true, and even if it is, God doesn't let humans tell Him what to do, but He is a nice guy.

In terms of being an accurate account of the word of God, the Bible probably isn't worth the paper it's written on, I concede that, but for the sake of argument, can we just accept that the Bible is a valid historical document?

I have never thought of this before, but my opponent is right – "Give us this day our daily bread" does seem a bit cheeky! Instead of going out to work and earning the money to pay for a loaf of bread, Matthew thought that God should provide it free of charge. However, we should remember, the Bible was written before the days of government welfare programs so people unable to work would have had no choice but to turn to the Lord for their daily sustenance.

Matthew also demanded that He forgave them for whatever crimes they had committed, which is also somewhat presumptuous, but the fact that nothing is written about God failing to dole out free food and not forgiving people must mean that, in fact, He did let humans push Him around a bit.

My opponent described God as "omnibenelovent" but that's not true. As far as deities go, God is not actually one of the more benevolent ones.

First of all, God is a racist and He runs Heaven like an exclusive South African country club from the Apartheid era.

http://www.debate.org...

Secondly, He's always going about smiting people and sending plagues and having people tortured to death.

http://www.infidels.org...

Plus God's got a really sick sense of humour. What about the time He told Abraham to sacrifice his only son? As it happened, God let him off at the last minute, which He must of thought was hilarious but I don't suppose Abraham was laughing about it

And while Hitler only killed a few million people, God practically wiped out the entire human race with His great flood - only the humans and land animals that could fit in Noah's Arc survived. This seems particularly cruel as millions of innocent bunny rabbits, gambolling lambs, fluffy kittens and cute little puppies would have drowned whilst the sharks would have survived and, indeed, feasted heartily on their carcasses.

No, all considered, God makes Hitler look like the Dalai Lama. He would definitely have forgiven him his trespasses but, in actual fact, He probably thought that Hitler was quite a nice fellow with no sins to forgive.

4 – Hitler's remains didn't go anywhere.

What I meant was Hitler was "sent" to Heaven – this is a matter of semantics, but fair enough nonetheless.

Thank you!
YonRoku

Con

>Thanks to Brian_Eggleston for his response.

>My opponent accepts my definitions. They are as applied below.

>I'll move to the arguments which are as follows.

(1) [The arguments] are under the grand assumption that heaven exists

My opponent concedes that this cannot be proved either way. I agree to this, but if he can give us no proof at all except asking for a draw, why believe his claim? His cites that four fifths of the world believe this. And? That majority of the population is OFTEN wrong. As an example, EVERYONE used to think that the sun revolved around the earth (http://en.wikipedia.org...). Thus, the majority cannot always be trusted unless there is proof. There is none, thus this is the first way you negate.

(2) [Proof] that God exists

My response is identical to my last one; no proof ergo the second way you can negate.

(3) [Assumption] the Holy Bible is entirely true

My opponent against asks me to make a huge assumption. In an argument I can do that, in a debate everything must be proved. This cannot be, thus it is the third way you negate.

Moving on to my argument about Matthew's bossiness, my opponent seems to agree. The essence of this argument, though, is that the Bible DOES NOT SAY THAT GOD COMPLIES. Thus, even under the assumption that the Bible is always true, it is here unyielding and thus proves nothing. Further, if you do not consider it new evidence (it is a part o the Holy Bible), in Jeremiah 3:12 God says that "[He is merciful, and [he] will not keep anger forever." Thus God does actually claim to be omnibenevolent.

(4) Hitler did not go to heaven

My opponent describes this as "fair," thus you must negate here - the fourth reason.

>Thanks to Brian_Eggleston, please vote CON.
Debate Round No. 2
15 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by KyleLumsden 8 years ago
KyleLumsden
very solid Round 1, YonRoku, and a spirited attempt in Round 2 to salvage the unsalvageable, Mr. Eggleston. :)
Posted by Ragnar_Rahl 8 years ago
Ragnar_Rahl
er... I think I reported a few of your comments Maya.

Terms of service has a big problem with profanity, fanaticism not so much.
Posted by Maya9 8 years ago
Maya9
My comments get deleted, yet the hateful and ignorant comments of religious fanatics like DATCMOTO are untouched. Don't you just love the values of the moderators? This place is a trash heap.
Posted by Ragnar_Rahl 8 years ago
Ragnar_Rahl
Hitler was a Lutheran. Lutherans are Christians. Therefore, nothing unlikely about it.
Posted by jjmd280 8 years ago
jjmd280
CHRISTIAN CLARITY..

Oh, what an oxymoron.
Posted by DATCMOTO 8 years ago
DATCMOTO
A little CHRISTIAN CLARITY..
Getting into, or failing to get into, heaven ( or Eternity.. ) has absolutely NOTHING to do with being good or bad..
When Christ hung on that cross he bore EVERY sin ( including, along with Hitler's, yours and mine..) so that " WHOEVER believes in Him shall have eternal Life. "
If we are standing in court charged with a crime and someone offers to 'pay the fine' we have to 'accept the offer' or pay the penalty.
Unless Hitler accepted Christ's atonement in his last hours ( unlikely.. ) then he will not be in the afterlife.
Posted by DefenderOfFaith 8 years ago
DefenderOfFaith
you can't prove the supernatural so why try. It's beyond Logic.
Posted by LoveyounoHomo 8 years ago
LoveyounoHomo
interesting debate. haha
Posted by brian_eggleston 8 years ago
brian_eggleston
Thanks KRFournier!

And may I compliment my opponent on his response - nice one! I'll have to think about my reply...
Posted by KRFournier 8 years ago
KRFournier
I used the present tense, but I didn't mean to imply that Hitler did his time. It could thousands or millions of years. I don't know, I'm not a Universalist.

Come to think of it, a Universalist could argue against Pro's use of the past tense in his resolution, saying that although Hitler will one day go to heaven, he did not go to heaven upon his death.
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