The Instigator
Flavorable
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
mrignao
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

Holistic mathematics proves fate.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/13/2011 Category: Philosophy
Updated: 5 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,082 times Debate No: 19830
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (0)
Votes (0)

 

Flavorable

Pro

I'll use this as an introduction. This is my first debate, and I'm open to any opponent. Considering the ambiguity of language, I'll define fate as a predetermined future outcome with no possible alternatives.
mrignao

Con

As long as we are using the first round for background information, this is also my first debate in this website according to the statistics and I would like to look more into the topic at hand. May the best man win and I hope to learn more about the topic we are debating about. It would be a pleasure to debate with you.
Debate Round No. 1
Flavorable

Pro

Thanks for accepting my debate. One of us will come out winning, and the other will come out learning something. :)

Mathematics objectively defines our universe in a way no other science has been able to. It can be used to calculate the velocity of a falling crate, the fluctuations in predator-prey populations in an ecosystem, the spread of bacteria and even maps complex interactions such as the minute changes in the relative speed of time for orbiting satellites. This is really only the beginning of the application of math in order to understand the world around us. Fractal geometry has allowed for us to begin to understand the logic behind the structure of a leaf, or a particular formation of clouds, or even the basic structure of the entire universe! ( http://sprott.physics.wisc.edu... )

Considering how such an abstract, minimalist system has defined so many distinctly different interactions in our universe, there is much credence behind the idea that math is the language of the universe. So then why is it that we can't use this language to map even more complex interactions such as the expansion of the universe, the nature or the thought process of a human being?

We didn't evolve to understand the infinitely complex universe around us, we evolved to survive within it, and so ultimately, what keeps us from understanding the universe is our limited intellect, and our limited perspective.



If this universe operates on the cold hard logic of math, then what does such a revelation allow us to grasp that we couldn't previously? I'm arguing that if we, with our limited grasp and intellect can determine a rough future trajectory of a cannonball by using a simplified equation with low precision, then all that separates our future estimate from what must happen is the complexity and precision of the equation.


In that sense, I think of our universe as a multidimensional equation of seemingly infinite complexity being executed. We're incapable of predicting the future because the math that will define the future is so ridiculously beyond our ability that we can barely perceive its existence.
mrignao

Con

First I would like to define fate.
Fate as defined by wikipedia is a predetermined course of events.
Your argument is that the mathematics equations are able to judge how the fate of the universe works.
While this argument may be good for non-living beings, it is completely irrelevant to beings of a living mind and conscience.

When we refer to fate, we do not refer to the mathematics that predict the next courses of action. Sure we could use mathematics to judge when something might happen and the most probability that something will happen, but we could never be sure. Fate is set in stone and math must deal with the everlasting variables of all organisms. If we try to use math to explain everything about our lives, we would go on to infinity in trying to find all the possible situations. Fate is not various situations, it is one course of events.

Additionally, we could use math to determine the state of the universe, but it would be irrelevant to our own fates. Sure we could find out when the world would end based on holistic mathematics, however we would most likely be dead by then. The relationships with individuals determine our fates.

Holistic mathematics is too vague of a theory in order for it to matter in our everyday lives. In order to use it, we must calculate every single action in the world. Trying to find fate is futile because the world is constantly changing and we would find ourselves in a sea of variables. Holistic mathematics does not prove fate because fate is ever changing depending on our own situations and states of beings.
Debate Round No. 2
Flavorable

Pro

I'm not suggesting that we are capable of utilizing holistic mathematics in order to determine our fate. I'm suggesting that the very existence of holistic mathematics disproves the notion of multiple futures and confirms the fact that there is only one possible future.

The idea that an organism is an unknown variable simply because it is conscious holds little credence when we look at our ability to map the spread of bacteria, the migratory patterns of birds, and the correlation between predators and prey in terms of population. Our accuracy at mathematically predicting any natural phenomenon falls as the complexity rises; and so I would suggest that all that separates the functions of a conscious organism such as bacteria, birds, wolves and humans from an unconscious function of the universe such as box falling or the orbit of a planet is the complexity in the number of calculations.

So if math, as I've demonstrated, is the absolute language of the universe and all of its components, then the conclusion that naturally follows is that the future is predetermined.
mrignao

Con

mrignao forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
Flavorable

Pro

Err... I guess this debate is prematurely over?
mrignao

Con

mrignao forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
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