The Instigator
f3ffy
Pro (for)
Losing
3 Points
The Contender
TheDarkMuffin
Con (against)
Winning
4 Points

Home schooling is not a good option

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
TheDarkMuffin
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/25/2013 Category: Education
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 2,515 times Debate No: 34106
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (2)
Votes (2)

 

f3ffy

Pro

Before I start, I will refer to all schools that are not home schools as 'regular schools'. Sorry if this may offend anyone.

Home schooling kids is hard and can harm a child socially and mentally, even physically.

First off, kids don't interact with other kids like they do in regular schools if they are home schooled. Because of this, they may not develop proper social skills, and when confronted with the outside world, will not know what to do and shut down, leading them to a hard life, trying to know how to interact with others.

Being in one place, the same scene, all day, for your whole life, can be agonizing, and affect one mentally. Going to a real school helps kids get fresh air, walk around, and be in a different environment. Sure they're probably in the same school year to year, but different grades offer different courses, which mean different areas of the school. If you are home schooled and move up a grade, it's not like you just move into another room in the house like you do in regular school. Being in your house for 12 years of your life and break one down mentally.

Lastly, physically, kids cannot develop properly like those who go to regular schools. I'm not just talking about gym class, either. In regular schools, students get passing time in between classes which allow them to walk around the halls, with friends or just to get to their next class. Either one is good for the student's health, even if it is just 5-10 minutes every day. Gym class does help, too. Home schooled kids don't get passing time, or gym in some cases.
It also helps that some students who go to regular schools walk or bike home, so they get even more exercise. Home schooled kids are obviously already home once school is over, so they just stay there, which goes back to the mentally harmful point I brought up earlier.

Home schooling isn't good because it can only hurt kids
TheDarkMuffin

Con

I will make a stronger argument later. For now, I will simply have it be acknowledged that I gladly accept the challenge to oppose your argument that "Home schooling isn't good because it can only hurt kids." I look forward to what I hope will be a rejuvenating and stimulating debate.
Debate Round No. 1
f3ffy

Pro

Sorry, I guess that seems like my challenge for you is that home schooling can only hurt kids. That was just my conclusion, sorry if there was confusion making it seem like that is my final statement.

Allow me to rephrase it: Home schooling is bad because it has many negative affects on kids, with little to no positive affects.

Thank you, and good luck.

TheDarkMuffin

Con

Ah. Very well. Thank you for the correction. I will be arguing, then, that home schooling is the superior choice given that the guardian has the capacity, financially and parentally, to support it. This is, of course, given, being that "regular schools" must also have the same grounds. In essence, I believe that a future where the majority of society is home schooled would be more beneficial than having one that's schooled standardly like the current American education system. However, even without the system being overhauled to support homeschooling mostly, an individual decision is superior as well.

As with my common style, I will rebut prior to making my own arguments as there are no rules against such a thing.

"First off, kids don't interact with other kids like they do in regular schools if they are home schooled. Because of this, they may not develop proper social skills, and when confronted with the outside world, will not know what to do and shut down, leading them to a hard life, trying to know how to interact with others."

This is a common misconception, from my studying of homeschooling in the past. Homeschooled children are often more socially adept than those who are schooled through public education, as they're not isolated like many believe. Also, they're more likely to are very discernibly commendable in terms of coming to terms with, or even exceeding, social norms. In addition, they are more able to influence others as effective leaders, as well as do so confidently.[1][2][3][4][5]

"Being in one place, the same scene, all day, for your whole life, can be agonizing, and affect one mentally. Going to a real school helps kids get fresh air, walk around, and be in a different environment."

I've already mentioned and cited a study proving this not to be true.[5] Ibid.

"Lastly, physically, kids cannot develop properly like those who go to regular schools."

Parents and guardians have access to many options for the physical education of their child, especially knowing what their child needs physically and mentally.[6]

Now that I've rebutted all my opponent's points, I've also inadvertently created my own argument. I'll gather all the thoughts here.

Homeschooling's Advantages

Homeschooling a child will most likely have your child be versatile, or significantly improved, to those educated in public, standardized environments in the following:
  • Leadership skills.[1][5]
  • Social skills.[1][2][3][4][5]
  • Confidence. [3][5][7][8]
  • Life success and income.[9]

It seems very clear that homeschooling is the superior choice for any parent that wants best for their child.

    1. The 1994 "Home Schoolers at Oral Roberts University" Study by Mike Mitchell. http://www.home-school.com...
    2. The "Socialization of Home Schooled Children: A Communication Approach" Master of Science Thesis by Thomas C. Smedley (1992).
    3. "College Success of Students from Three High School Settings: Christian School, Home School, and Public School" by Rhonda Galloway& Joseph Sutton (1997). http://www.eric.ed.gov...
    4. The "Comparison of Social Adjustment Between Home and Traditionally Schooled Students" Philosophers Degree dissertation by Larry Shyers (1992).
    5. "The Effect of Home Schooling on Leadership Skills of Home Schooled Students" by Linda Montgomery (1989). http://www.nheri.org...
    6. http://simplehomeschool.net...
    7. "Self-Concept in Home Schooling Children" by John Taylor (1986).
    8. The "Home Educated Children's Social/Emotional Adjustment and Academic Achievements:A Comparative Study" Doctoral dissertation by Mona Delahooke (1986).
    9. Equip Education's Homeschooling Population Reports (2000s). http://www.equipeducation.org...


Debate Round No. 2
f3ffy

Pro

I am unable to view the links you provided because I need a subscription, though I give you credit for the facts and evidence.

However, it seems like I know very little still. Any one person can copy and paste a link, and hope that their opponent is too lazy to read it. These links, though I'm sure would've been effective, weren't because you provided little to no pre-description or summary before the link, so the ideas of kids developing

Leadership skills.[1][5]
Social skills.[1][2][3][4][5]
Confidence. [3][5][7][8]
Life success and income.[9]

Is still a bit foggy to me.

Now to my argument.

Compared to public schooling, home schooling is expensive.

Just for 'enrollment' and getting the curriculum and supplies, etc. can cost Hundreds of dollars. http://www.moneycrashers.com...

Yes, there are some programs that allow for cheaper prices, but the parent has to put in more work and it can be harder without all the supplies. Keep in mind that regular schooled kids pay nothing up front. All they pay for are supplies and possibly bus transportation depending on where they live.

Some will argue that they also pay the taxes to maintain public schools, but everyone, home schooled or public schooled, pays that, so in reality, home schooled kids are paying more.

Keep in mind that with one parent teaching, the family loses income. Parents don't get paid to teach, so it hurts the family financially as well.

So again I present, not only socially and mentally, but financially, home schooling can affect the family and child.

TheDarkMuffin

Con

I found an infographic that really took all the facts I presented from different sources and put it into one place. I think you'd find it rather informing. It does, admittedly, appear to be neglectful to all the downsides of Homeschooling.[1]

So that should help you with the trouble of "know[ing] very little still." If you find that insufficient and would like more links, I will happily provide them.

Now, your new argument is that "Compared to public schooling, home schooling is expensive." Earlier, I stated that I would be arguing that Homeschooling would be superior "given that the guardian has the capacity, financially and parentally, to support it." However, it's clear that my opponent does not want that to be my argument, so I will now have this debate, as the Contender, delve into financial ties of homeschooling.

The Cost of Homeschooling Versus Public Education

Those facts were true. It can cost hundreds of dollars to homeschool a child. However, it's worthy to note that many parents spend thousands merely for "Back to School" garments and tools, as well as luxuries[2], many of which are verily superfluous if my opinion is to be known. Does every parent succumb to the desire to shell out this much money? No. In fact, some manage to pay the bare minimum. Some don't pay at all, with enough resourcefulness. It costs the average parent about 800 dollars annually[3] to pay for their child in public school.

To compare, Homeschooling costs a minimum of $564.32 given that none of the aspects in the link cited[4] are neglected. However, looking at many of those, I'm certain it won't take you too long to realize that many of those aspects are negligible. In fact, many of the quotes at the bottom agree. Furthermore, many of those are luxuries that public education parents pay for as well. So the cost for Homeschooling becomes about $377. Of course, just like with the other case, resourcefulnes can bring this cost down to nothing.

Finally, simply because this is an argument I feel my opponent will eventually bring up...

Homeschooling Circumstantial Opportunities

This was touched on just a bit before. "Being in one place, the same scene, all day, for your whole life, can be agonizing, and affect one mentally." The fact is: That's not what happens at all. In fact, your child can participate in, while Homeschooled, extracurricular activities, just like a child that goes to a "regular school."[5] In an earlier link[4], the HSLDA was mentioned. The HSLDA supports Extracurricular activities as well.[6] Homeschooling communities are often large enough to where children may get together and participate in activities with each other, organized or otherwise. These community service projects actually rather common.

In fact, check this out.[7]

Something I'm sure my opponent will also bring up: International Baccalaureate and National Advanced Placement programs.

Unfortunately, IB is not available to homeschoolers. However, AP is, through online courses.[8][9]

I believe that sufficiently covers anything anyone may have doubts of in Homeschooling. I'm willing to provide more evidence in favor of Homeschooling, should Pro make it necessary.

  1. http://images.collegeathome.com.s3.amazonaws.com...
  2. http://www.marketingcharts.com...
  3. Ibid
  4. http://www.homefires.com...
  5. http://www.educationbug.org...
  6. http://www.hslda.org...
  7. http://ncmocktrial.org...
  8. http://www.aphomeschoolers.com...
  9. http://www.apexlearninghs.com...
Debate Round No. 3
f3ffy

Pro

Let me say right off that I enjoyed this debate. Nothing too nasty, very factual, and I did learn a lot. So thank you for this debate.

Now, to rebut and restate.

I applaud you for your financial opposition. I have found those to be true, and I must be honest, I cannot defend that.

However, I can defend your extracurricular statements just fine. I have found that first off, extracurricular activities help students academically, creates higher attendance, and helps students prepare and be motivated for education beyond high school. Here is a chart I found to be very surprising:
EC Act No EC Act
No unexcused absences* 50.4 36.2 Never skipped classes* 50.7 42.3 Have a GPA of 3.0 or above 30.6 10.8 Highest quartile on a composite math and reading assessment 29.8 14.2 Expect to earn a bachelor's degree or higher 68.2 48.2

[ http://nces.ed.gov... ]

So right off the bat we see that participation in after school acitivies help a lot.

But which ones help the most?
In 2005 Darling et al. found that though athletics did help student's overall attitude and academic achievements, students who participated in non athletics, such as fine arts, had a far better attitude in general, better grades, and achieved more.
Here is a list of the average public school has for options for extracurricular activities in the fine arts:

  • String Orchestra

  • Full Orchestra

  • Concert Band

  • Marching Band

  • Jazz Band

  • Applied Instrument Lessons

  • Music Theory

  • Music Composition

  • Music History

  • Piano

  • Concert Choir

  • Show Choir

  • Jazz Choir

  • Applied Voice Lessons

  • Introduction to Art

  • 3-D Design

  • Photography

  • Graphic Design

  • Art Club

  • Drawing and Painting

  • AP Studio Art

  • Drama

  • Music Theatre

  • Speech

  • Debate

[ http://old.dmps.k12.ia.us... ]


And here is a list of what an average home schooling system has for Fine Art activities:

  • Musical instrument lessons
  • Singing lessons
  • Joining a local children’s choir
  • 2-D and 3-D art classes
  • Tap dance, ballet, jazz dance classes

[http://www.educationbug.org...]

Now what about sports? Well as I stated earlier, they are somewhere in between fine arts participation and no participation in terms of academic excellence, grades, and attitudes, but any participation is better than none, right? So here is a list of an average school's sports opportunities:

Archery
-
Baseball
-
Basketball
-
Bowling
-
Cheer/Spirit Squad
-
Cross Country
-
Dance
-
Drill
-
Field Hockey
-
Football
-
Golf
-
Gymnastics
-
Hockey
-
Lacrosse
-
Martial Arts
-
Rowing
/
Crew
-
Rugby
-
Skiing
-
Soccer
-
Softball
-
Swimming/Diving
-
Tennis
-
Track
-
Volleyball
-
Water Polo
-
Wrestling
Non
-
school
/
club sports
-
ASA softball
-
Competitive
/
club soccer
Intramural sports (basketball,
volleyball, floor hockey, etc.)
Swim Class Assistant
Martial



And here are the home schooling options I found:

  • Golf
  • Horseback riding
  • Skiing (cross country or alpine)
  • Membership on local park and recreation teams

[ http://www.educationbug.org... ]

Obviously the regular schools have so many more, giving those students much more options to choose from, allowing them to be more successful academically, with better attitudes and grades.

Now before I finish off, I have one more argument. Kids who get home schooled only learn as much as their parent knows. If they don't have a teacher' degree, and aren't quite sure how to do 9th grade geometry, then they'll be in trouble. Sure they'll have an idea of how to teach, and I don't doubt there is training and courses for them to take, but since they aren't official, licensed teachers (which goes back to the not getting paid, making thee financial situation hard) they won't be giving their child the same education as kids who go to public schools.

Thank you for a good debate, I hope we can possibly do it again.






TheDarkMuffin

Con

I know it as a definite discerning from my experience that a child can participate in Debate and Drama outside of school. Also, it's worthy to take note that you compartmentalized in such a fashion that simply deploys a seeming advantage in ways that there are not.

The Obscuring Prognosis

For example. Larger text to show superiority.

"Here is a list of the average public school has for options for extracurricular activities in the fine arts:" is in 14 point.

Then, "And here is a list of what an average home schooling system has for Fine Art activities:" is in 10 point. Very subtle, but still noteworthy. Clever.

This also managed to skew it a bit through compartmentalizing. A LOT. Your comparing manipulated the choice of list to appear short on the second part by combining a large amount of the activities in the list above it, inadvertent to the sources.

"
  • String Orchestra

  • Full Orchestra

  • Concert Band

  • Marching Band

  • Jazz Band

  • Applied Instrument Lessons

  • Music Theory

  • Music Composition

  • Music History

  • Piano

  • Concert Choir

  • Show Choir

  • Jazz Choir

  • Applied Voice Lessons

  • Introduction to Art

  • 3-D Design

  • Photography

  • Graphic Design

  • Art Club

  • Drawing and Painting

  • AP Studio Art

  • Drama

  • Music Theatre

  • Speech

  • Debate

"

"Wow! Pro found twenty five extracurricular activities! Would be a challenge to match up to that!

"

  • Musical instrument lessons
  • Singing lessons
  • Joining a local children’s choir
  • 2-D and 3-D art classes
  • Tap dance, ballet, jazz dance classes

"

"And it looks like Con only has five in his favor! Clear winner, everybody!"

However, here's, um, the thing. Musical instrument lessons accounts for a bunch of those that you included in the first list. "Singing lessons" counts as that as well. "Joining a local children's choir" is just joining a performing group. This simplifies it. A lot.

Let's put this with a little less bias. And by that, I also mean to point out how you used larger font on the second list than the first to make the preceding text seem smaller on the second, larger on the first. My opponent intends to use this to subtly/subliminally make you believe that Homeschooling is smaller and inferior. I'm simply going to use 12 point Helvetica on both lists. First, Homeschooling. Based on my opponent's research.

  • Musical Instrument Lessons
  • Joining a Performing Group
  • Art Classes
  • Dance Classes

Now, for Public Education.

  • Musical Instrument Lessons
  • Musical Peripheral Lessons
  • Joining a Performing Group
  • Art Classes
  • Dance Classes
  • Art Lessons
  • Rhetoric

With all the decompartmentalization and defragmenting done, you can see the significant advantage is taken away. Rather than Public Education having FIVE HUNDRED PERCENT the amount of activities, it only has three more, thus giving it merely a seventy five percent advantage.

I don't believe it was very courteous of my opponent to skew the results by over three hundred percent.

However, it's been uncovered. No longer encrypted. Out in the open. With these new results, let's see if I have a chance at rebutting Pro.

The Source of All Knowledge


I really don't believe my opponent, without bias, tried to find the best source for extracurricular activities. In school, I myself am in love with Theatre. In fact, as a person with Asperger's Syndrome (and thus, autistic tendencies), I have a small pool of interests. Philosophy, Mathematics, Debating, and Theatre. Anything else seems like a waste of time. In fact, my complete understanding of History is that something bad happened to Jews and Blacks a long time ago. That's as cultural as I get.*

Though I'm very active in Theatre in my school, I'm active in Theatre outside of my school as well. So, from my experience, I am certain that Theatre is available to Homeschoolers, as it's available to me even given no knowledge that I'm in any public education system at all. Same goes for Debate. In fact, I even cited a source talking about a Debate team, of HOMESCHOOLERS, winning a National Mock Trial competition.

Also, in that very link that my opponent provided, here are a bunch of sports listen that Pro seemed to just decide to neglect completely.

  • Baseball
  • Basketball
  • Cheerleading
  • Climbing
  • Field Hockey
  • Football
  • Soccer
  • Softball
  • Tennis
  • Track
  • Volleyball

That source also listed Debate. And Theatre. Funny. Here I am, with the Internet, the Source of All Knowledge in the entire universe, and all that was necessary to refute my opponent's argument? Links already cited hitherto this round. It almost seems like Cherry Picking and Tunnel Vision on my opponent's part.

"Obviously the regular schools have so many more, giving those students much more options to choose from, allowing them to be more successful academically, with better attitudes and grades." No. Those "regular schools" do not have "so many more." Homeschooling communities occur often, strengthening the amount of activity, socially and otherwise, amongst the homeschooled children.

I'm sure you could say "Well, what if you don't live around any homeschoolers and the community is weak and your kid doesn't get what he/she needs?" In the same fashion, I could ask "What if you live somewhere without any good schools and your kid doesn't get what he/she needs?"

In every aspect, it seems that Homeschooling is either an equivalent, or superior, choice to "regular schools."

This brings up another point.

We're All In This Together!


"If [the parents] don't have a teacher' degree, and aren't quite sure how to do 9th grade geometry, then [the children]'ll be in trouble."


Just as a community ensures more social exposure and such, a community also means that there are more parents. A larger pool of teaching techniques. My mathematics teacher always discusses everything she teaches with her best friend, another mathematics teacher, before they teach anything. If a parent is unsure on how to teach something, they can always converse it with the other parents.

And much like many have an Engineering degree can mean significantly much less than one would think[1] (I'm aware that's in China, but there are billions of ways to get Degrees for sh*t you know nothing of anywhere), having a Teacher's degree, or lack thereof, is an insignificant factor.

Conclusion


  • Homeschooling results in a child being more socially active and adept.
  • Homeschooling costs versus Public Education costs are negligible.
  • Homeschooling EC opportunities versus Public Education EC opportunities are negligible.
  • Homeschooling results in a more financially successful adult than an adult a result of Public Education.

  1. http://www.forbes.com...
Debate Round No. 4
2 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Posted by TheDarkMuffin 3 years ago
TheDarkMuffin
To anyone who was wanting to know, I had numbers to cite my sources. Seeing [1] means that the source next to 1. refers to that sentence.
Posted by Ragnar 3 years ago
Ragnar
Good topic for your first debate. Best of luck.
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by AgentRocks 3 years ago
AgentRocks
f3ffyTheDarkMuffinTied
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Total points awarded:34 
Reasons for voting decision: Very Interesting indeed, I liked The Contenender since he had more ideas to defend against the Pro, because he talked abotu many things that I have never heard about in Homeschooling. You two have done a very good job and should give yourselfs a pat on the back. ~Extra: TheDarkMuffin, why did you have numbers? Like [1]
Vote Placed by TheElderScroll 3 years ago
TheElderScroll
f3ffyTheDarkMuffinTied
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Total points awarded:00 
Reasons for voting decision: An informative debate, but neither sides, in my opinion, presented cohesive arguments in supporting their assertions. Pro: Pro did present some drawbacks associated with home schooling, but no hard numbers had been put forward. Con: Con did present many facts, but none of these facts were presented in the form of arguments (only links and citations). This peculiar debate style can be very frustrating as it made me feel like reading appendix instead of actual arguments. Therefore, on the basis of above reasoning, I would vote for a tie.