The Instigator
justin.graves
Pro (for)
Winning
17 Points
The Contender
G131994
Con (against)
Losing
7 Points

Homeschooling is better than Public School

Do you like this debate?NoYes+2
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 4 votes the winner is...
justin.graves
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 4/5/2013 Category: Education
Updated: 4 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 2,993 times Debate No: 32120
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (1)
Votes (4)

 

justin.graves

Pro

First round is acceptance

Rules

No swearing

Stay civil

Use sources or logic to support your claims

Wikipedia is not a source

You can supplement your sources with personal experience, but that should not be the main source of support for your rebuttals or contentions.

BOP is shared



For clarification purposes, I am homeschooled and am arguing that homeschooling is superior in every way to public school.
Debate Round No. 1
justin.graves

Pro

Homeschooling (N.): The education of children at home by their parents.

In America today, there are more than a million homeschooled children. Admittedly, homeschooling is not for everyone, but it is certainly better than public school. Homeschooling is better than public school for three reasons:

1. More Academic Success

2. Better Socially

3. Increased Parental Bonds

1. More Academic Success: Homeschoolers are fairly well known to be gifted in the area of academics. Why? Because they are simply better. In 1997, there was a study released of 5,402 homeschooling students' standardized testing grades. The study was called "Strengths of Their Own: Home Schoolers Across America." In that study, it was found that Homeschoolers outscored public schoolers by 30-37 points in every subject. Big difference. Homeschoolers usually ranked in the 86th to 92nd percentile if they had homeschooled for two or more years. Big difference. That could be the difference between an Ivy League school or the community college down the street. Homeschoolers simply do better academically. It could be the one-on-one teaching with the parent(s). Maybe it is the ability to choose which curriculum to use. No matter how, homeschoolers have more academic success then public schoolers.

2. Better Socially: I know exactly what you are thinking. "Whoa, whoa whoa... better socially. No, I think you're getting this backwards. Homeschoolers are socially awkward and aren't well adjusted." Ehhh... no. According to a study done by a Canadian education research center, homeschooled children are more socailly active during and after high school. Exact quote: "When measured against the average Canadians ages 15 to 34 years old, home-educated Canadian adults ages 15 to 34 were more socially engaged (69 percent participated in organized activities at least once per week, compared with 48 percent of the comparable population)." This study shows that homeschoolers are better off socially not only while in school, but also once they graduate.

3. Increased Parental Bond: Almost all homeschoolers come from a two parent home. Studies have shown over and over that children that have close relationships with their parents are less likely to commit crimes, get into alcohol and drugs, and to become pregnant as a teen. They are also more likely to be successful in school, have a good understanding of the world, and to go onto good colleges. Obviously, if your child is at home with you or doing things with you a lot, you are going to have a better bond with them.

Summary:

1. Homeschooled children are much better than Public Schoolers academically
.
2. Homeschooled students are better socially than Public School students

3. Homeschooled students are less likely to get into crime and more likely to be successful in life because of their close relationship with their parents.

Sources:

http://www.hslda.org......

http://school.familyeducation.com......

https://www.google.com......

http://www.essentialparenting.com......

http://aspe.hhs.gov......

http://www.modernmom.com......

http://www.livestrong.com......

http://www.blog.montessoriforeveryone.com......

http://www.webmd.com......

http://www.fatherhood.org......

http://nces.ed.gov......
G131994

Con

The debate states that ""Homeschooling is better than Public School"" not that ""Homeschooling CAN be better than Public School"" this implies that no matter who you are, who you parents are if you stayed at home you would receive a better education no matter what the circumstances.

I find this argument rather ridiculous it is impossible to make such a sweeping generalisation you fail to take into account parents education, occupation, and other motives they may have for example religion.
Furthermore you do not state in the argument that ""Homeschooling IN THE USA is better than Public School"" therefor I am entitled to use international examples. The nation with the best public schools, south korea has a population of 50 million only 600 to 1,000 families choose to home school there children. A public school has teachers who have trained for years to help children achieve their maximum potential.

You use figures from the National Centre for Education Statistics but this doesn't provide a full picture, as many homeschoolers are strongly opposed to any sort of governmental oversight of their efforts, and therefore refuse to participate in any data-gathering attempts (the 2003 NCES survey, had a 58% refusal rate) therefore the figures you sight are likely to be distorted and inaccurate. Refuting the basis of you argument.
A child needs to have a rounded educational experience learning how to work as part of a team to achieve their full academic potential, this includes working with each other in a learning/working a valuable skill when attending university or work you need to these skills at their disposal.
Parents are not up to date with modern teaching techniques or theory"s for example modern day sciences have refuted the idea of creationism and other teachings of the bible and yet they are being taught to some ""homeschoolers"" like they are fact.

Summary
Suited to some children not all therefore is wrong to say all it is better in every way than public school again supported by international examples.
Flawed figures in Pro argument distort the facts.
Rounded education is not guaranteed giving the child an obscure view of the world.

Sources
http://www.indiana.edu...
http://www.hslda.org...
http://en.wikipedia.org...
Debate Round No. 2
justin.graves

Pro

Alright, first off I have three thing to say to my opponent:
1. You agreed not to use Wikipedia as a source.
2. You used Wikipedia as a source.
3. Please don't use Wikipedia again.

Now that we have that cleared up, on to my rebuttals:

1. "Suited to some children not all therefore is wrong to say all it is better in every way than public school again supported by international examples." I could not decipher exactly what my opponent was trying to convey in this sentence due to his lack of basic punctuation. So, based on his argument, I think he may have combined two of his contentions into one when he was writing his summary. I will spilt them into part "A" and "B" for clarification.

1A. Since homeschooling would not work for some students, it is wrong to say that it is better.

Just because something doesn't work in some select situations doesn't mean that it isn't better. Generally speaking, antibiotics are better for curing a man with an infection than simple rest would be, but sometimes, such in cases of allergies, doctors don't prescribe antibiotics. Just because something doesn't always work doesn't mean it isn't the best solution. Antibiotics work more often than not, so they are the best choice. Homeschooling works more often than not, so it is the best choice.

1B. "Furthermore you do not state in the argument that ""Homeschooling IN THE USA is better than Public School"""(sic)

Homeschooling is more popular and better documented in the US, so most studies on it would be from the US. However, I do recall talking about Canadian homeschoolers in the previous round, so I am not sure why my opponent has said that I have not used examples from other countries. I have.

2. "Flawed figures in Pro argument distort the facts."(sic)

This statement is based off the fact that in the fact that in a 2003 survey, 58% of homeschoolers refused to take government standardized testing. In North Carolina, where I live, you are asked to take a government standardized test. I have taken the PSAT, PLAN, and EXPLORER tests. Those are government tests. However, there are private standardized tests that can be preformed that some private school use. This refusal rate is based off the government testing refusal rate, not the privatized ones, which are just as valid. I never took a government test until 9th grade, I aced it by the way, making my refusal rate over 82%. You cannot get into colleges without taking government tests in high school, but you don't have to in elementary or middle school, which is where I bet a lot of that refusal rate comes from. The 42% that did take those tests were probably high schoolers.

3. "Rounded education is not guaranteed giving the child an obscure view of the world." (Sic)

Exact quote from previous round: " learning how to work as part of a team to achieve their full academic potential, this includes working with each other in a learning/working a valuable skill when attending university or work you need to these skills at their disposal" This seems to go back to the "socialization" problem. In my personal life, here are some teamwork building activities I or a homeschooled friend has been involved in: Mock trial competitions, debate meetings, baseball league, basketball league, drama and acting, and marine biology. We get the same opportunities you do, we just have to work for the equality to be able to do them.

Also, you seem to add in that "Parents are not up to date with modern teaching techniques or theory"s for example modern day sciences have refuted the idea of creationism and other teachings of the bible and yet they are being taught to some ""homeschoolers"" like they are fact." (sic) Although I am a Creationist and a Christian, all homeschoolers are not religious. Furthermore, all of the homeschoolers that I know learn about evolution and creation. That gives them a more rounded view of the world. They get to see both sides of the issue.

Notes on South Korea:
I though I should take a minute to talk about homeschooling in South Korea. The link that my opponent used* was for a homeschooling rights website. Exact quote from website: "The law is vague and the business community is supporting homeschooling, so homeschoolers are largely left alone." The law is vague, which might be a barrier to homeschoolers. Also, just because something isn't popular (i.e. only among 600 to 1,000 families), doesn't mean it isn't correct or that it does not work.

Summary:

1. If something doesn't work 10% of the time, but works 90% of the time, it is still better than something that works 50% of the time. Such as in homeschooling and public school

2. The USA tracks homeschooling statistics much more closely than any other country, so most statistics would be from the USA.

3. Just because 58% of homeschoolers opted out of government testing doesn't mean 58% opted out of private standardized testing

4. There are secular homeschoolers as well as religious homeschoolers. Also, most Creationist homeschoolers also learn evolution. So a "Well Rounded" view of the world, according to me opponent, is still taught.

5. Just because something isn't popular, doesn't mean it isn't the best.

Sources:
http://www.indiana.edu...
http://www.hslda.org...

http://www.usnews.com...
http://www.secularhomeschool.com...

G131994

Con

I would like to take this opportunity to apologise for the mistakes I made and am very sorry my opponent was unable to read it.

""Since homeschooling would not work for some students, it is wrong to say that it is better"" It is a significant amount of people it would not work for hence only 3% of children are home schooled. At the beginning you said "" For clarification purposes, I am homeschooled and am arguing that homeschooling is superior in every way to public school."" You therefore imply that that home schooling is the better form of education for everyone because you have generalised. You fail to exclude anyone in society from your statement, you therefore imply even the children who have drug dealers as parents would be better of being home schooled.

""I am not sure why my opponent has said that I have not used examples from other countries."" Please use a quote I am struggling to find where I said you didn"t use examples from other countries. I simply pointed out home schooling south Korea is not the better form of education. Therefore contradicting your statement" For clarification purposes, I am homeschooled and am arguing that homeschooling is superior in every way to public school.""

"" I never took a government test until 9th grade, I aced it by the way,"" good for you I bet your mother was very proud. Unsure of the relevance of 1 person doing well in 1 set of exams so I will put this point down to personal vanity.

""Just because something doesn't work in some select situations doesn't mean that it isn't better."" I agree. Let"s follow on with that, about 1.5 million children are home schooled out of approximately 50 million so the parents of 50 million children believe there children are better in a public school. You say "" some select situations"" so why do 50 million attend public schools ?.

"" the privatized ones, which are just as valid"" irrelevant you have not used these figures in your argument. "" I bet a lot of that refusal rate comes from. The 42% that did take those tests were probably high schoolers"" Totally unsupported argument personal view with no evidence. Figures are still highly likely to be distorted.

""Mock trial competitions, debate meetings, baseball league, basketball league, drama and acting, and marine biology."" In school you interact with people thought the day both in a work environment and in a social environment you may be a part of clubs but this does not provide the same experience because only 3 % of the population is home schooled you will be considered an outsider.

""Although I am a Creationist and a Christian, all homeschoolers are not religious."" ." the most common reason parents gave as the most important was a desire to provide religious or moral instruction (36 per cent of students) while 83% said it was an important reason. Clearly most parents have a motive to bring the child up to believe in creationism and therefore present the information in a biased manor.

Summary
Most parents (97%) still believe public school is the best place for their children.

Internationally parents and students do no believe home schooling is better that is why it is very uncommon.

Pro has used flawed statistics to make his argument.

Key motivation is religious not for the child"s education. Facts presented in a biased way to enable the parents to manipulate the child .

Sources
http://www.homeschoolnewslink.com...
http://nces.ed.gov...
http://www.examiner.com...
http://nces.ed.gov...
Debate Round No. 3
justin.graves

Pro

Well, I've said just about all I think I need to say on this debate. So this round, I'll summarize.

1. Homeschooled children are much better than Public Schoolers academically
.
2. Homeschooled students are better socially than Public School students

3. Homeschooled students are less likely to get into crime and more likely to be successful in life because of their close relationship with their parents.

Rebuttals:
"Most parents (97%) still believe public school is the best place for their children.":
90% of Germans voted for Hitler before WWII, majority/might doesn't make right. Just because something is popular doesn't mean it is right.

"Internationally parents and students do no believe home schooling is better that is why it is very uncommon."
Actually, homeschooling is illegal in many countries, especially in Europe. Germany, Albania, Cyprus, Andoria, Belarus, Bulgaria, Greece, Malta, Moldova, and many other countries persecute homeschooling and make it hard to educate children in that manner. and again, just because something isn't popular, doesn't mean it isn't right.

"Pro has used flawed statistics to make his argument."
Actually, I used one study, and you used a different study from a different organization on the same subject to prove that my study was flawed. All that showed was that your study was flawed. Also, I showed that many homeschoolers use private testing, whose test scores are not given to the government but equally valid nonetheless

"Key motivation is religious not for the child"s education. Facts presented in a biased way to enable the parents to manipulate the child."

This goes right along with the other "imagine" objections to homeschooling. Imagining what homeschooling is like. From Con's point of view, he knows what the parent's are thinking and they want to manipulate the children and putting the wool over the child's eyes. Also for the "biased" part... In my homeschool, we learn about evolution and creation, not just creation. On the other hand, in public schools you only learn about evolution. I'd say public schools are more biased. And remember, not all homeschoolers are religious.


Remember that the burden of proof is shared and vote Pro.

Bibliography for debate:

Round 2:

http://www.hslda.org.........

http://school.familyeducation.com.........

https://www.google.com.........

http://www.essentialparenting.com.........

http://aspe.hhs.gov.........

http://www.modernmom.com.........

http://www.livestrong.com.........

http://www.blog.montessoriforeveryone.com.........

http://www.webmd.com.........

http://www.fatherhood.org.........

http://nces.ed.gov.........



Round 3:
http://www.indiana.edu......
http://www.hslda.org......

http://www.usnews.com......
http://www.secularhomeschool.com......



G131994

Con

The argument :

"" Home schooling is better than Public School""

""For clarification purposes, I am home schooled and am arguing that home schooling is superior in every way to public school.""

My responses
It is impossible to generalise each student learns best in different ways.

Religion is the main reason that students are home schooled not academic success.

No social interaction in a work environment

Lack of specialized subject teachers when being home schooled.

Not one country in the world sees home schooling as the better method of schooling.

My rebuttals:

""90% of Germans voted for Hitler before WWII, majority/might doesn't make right. Just because something is popular doesn't mean it is right."" Very extreme example however Hitler led Germany from nothing to one of the most powerful nations in the world. We live in a democracy and have to accept the consensus view. In this case the consensus is Home schooling is NOT better than Public School.

""Actually, home schooling is illegal in many countries, especially in Europe. Germany, Albania, Cyprus, Andoria, Belarus, Bulgaria, Greece, Malta, Moldova, and many other countries persecute home schooling and make it hard to educate children in that manner. and again, just because something isn't popular, doesn't mean it isn't right.""

It is legal in the vast majority of countries and is still not seen as the best form of education in any country in the world.

"" homeschoolers use private testing, whose test scores are not given to the government but equally valid nonetheless"" .

You used none of these stats in your argument and even if you did it would not allow us to compare with public results. We therefore cannot draw any meaningful conclusions from any of your stats used.

"" he knows what the parent's are thinking and they want to manipulate the children and putting the wool over the child's eyes""
I do not wish to insult your beliefs but the fact you and many others like you were home schooled and believe in creationism is in my view no coincidence.

As proved thought this debate for the vast majority of students public school is best option.

I would like to thank Pro for the debate.

Vote con.

All References:
http://www.homeschoolnewslink.com......
http://nces.ed.gov......
http://www.examiner.com......
http://nces.ed.gov......
http://www.indiana.edu......
http://www.hslda.org......
http://en.wikipedia.org......
Debate Round No. 4
1 comment has been posted on this debate.
Posted by lili_ester 2 years ago
lili_ester
i'm doing a debate on this so this was really helpful!
4 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Vote Placed by Magic8000 4 years ago
Magic8000
justin.gravesG131994Tied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:Vote Checkmark--2 points
Total points awarded:70 
Reasons for voting decision: Countering iholland95's vb
Vote Placed by Pennington 4 years ago
Pennington
justin.gravesG131994Tied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:40 
Reasons for voting decision: I am giving S/G to Pro to tie the points because of previous votes. After that I will now make my vote. I give arguments to Pro because he made very good arguments about homeschooling allows you to be free for thought and not chained to secular standards. Con also did a good job rebuttaling Pro but Pro gets my vote here. I tie conduct and sources to be fair. Both supplied many.
Vote Placed by iholland95 4 years ago
iholland95
justin.gravesG131994Tied
Agreed with before the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Agreed with after the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:-Vote Checkmark-2 points
Total points awarded:07 
Reasons for voting decision: You meet friends when you actually go to school. Being homeschooled, you are all alone with no one to whisper secrets to and laugh at jokes with.
Vote Placed by jordansshuler 4 years ago
jordansshuler
justin.gravesG131994Tied
Agreed with before the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Agreed with after the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:Vote Checkmark--2 points
Total points awarded:60 
Reasons for voting decision: I really thought that Pro did a good job arguing what I thought was a harder case to present. He did a tremendous job backing up his reasoning with reliable sources.